Honesty and quality controll

When are BMD going to stop lying and also release satisfactory products?

Every time you hear a release date you know, you can see by the body language on these BMD representatives faces that they are lying through their teeth! Why not just be honest and say look, we have got this new camera coming out, it will be acailable by Christmas. Rather than 'hey guys, we have an idea for a camera, it will be shipping tomorrow? The next day! Deffo next week! Yep it's all cool it will be with you in 3 weeks. It is pathetic behaviour for a company that considers themselves professional! The truth is they are a bunch of amaters that are burrird way too deep in their own BS!

They are so full of pride that they never swallow and say, look we won't make that same mistake again we are gonna give ourselves enough time to build this camera. But no lying is a better option!
When they finally do release 3 cameras into the market they are miss sold as something they are not! The BMCC is still missing features stated a year ago that it would have, the pocket camera is stated as shipping with RAW on the product page, the stores, and the box. So anyone who doesn't follow the forums but buys this camera in the specs stated by BMD are being lied to and sold a product that does not do anything like the product description. This I'm afraid is not only deceitful but also an Illegal practice! But BMD don't care if what they are doing is dishonest and illegal as long as you but the product!

They don't respond to criticism and ignore people who have had enough of being lied to, what they do do is get a "respectable" cinematographer named JB to come on here and worship the ground they walk on pretending to be independent, dispute getting a constant flow of free cameras from BMD. JB would never ever criticise the deceitful, lying, illegal behavior of Blackmagic design.

After constant delays with the BMCC I canceled my pre order and pre ordered the pocket camera under the promise that these would have no problem being shipped in July. (Brawley insists that these were shipped in July because he received all 5 they made in the 4 months prior) to all the peasants like us who ordered in the first hours of NAB we are still waiting at the end of September, with no sign at all of any 4K.
When the anyone did receive a pocket camera, it was usually a camera celebrity or company that would help in the promotion of BMD dispite promises that it would be first come first served and to add insult to injury that would sometimes receive 2 each, Again BMD incapable of telling the truth!
The general overview of this camera was that it wasn't a quality product, plagued with shoddy manufacturing problems such as, incredibly poor battery life, white orbs, shocking sound, display problems, poor build etc etc!
After seeing that this was a shoddily made camera I decided to buy a BMCC now that they had slashed the price by a $1000.

One or 2 weeks after receiving my BMCC it died and has to be sent back if repair. It seems that there are more broken, defective and unuasable cameras being sent out of the BMD factory's than good working cameras! Why??

BMD! Why should we hold any faith in you as a respectable company, after a terrible track record, why do you still give out reduculously optimistic dates? Do you enjoy getting a bad reputation??
If you just gave yourselves 3 extra months on your deadlines you could be respected for releasing productucts even a few days before! And thus way you would have more time to refine your products rather than sending out batches and batches of defective products 2 months late!
I don't get it, it is the most common sense thing to do. But for some reason you guys prefer lying about release dates and ignoring the problems with the cameras, then you tell everyone that the customer is what BMD is all about! Ha ha that is laughable! I've never seen such lack if respect from a company to their "valued" customers in all my life!

I know this will be ignored, after all your ignorance and dishonesty is making you a lot of money!
Thanks

They don't respond to criticism and ignore people who have had enough of being lied to, what they do do is get a "respectable" cinematographer named JB to come on here and worship the ground they walk on pretending to be independent,

BMD don't "get" me to do anything.

I'm not on the payroll.

I don't have adverts for BMD on my blog.

I don't do world tours and classes.

BMD invited me to IBC last year. I paid for my own meals.

I have an informal arrangement and I give them early feedback on their cameras and test them daily in real production environments. I can't even release most of the footage I shoot with the cameras.

I get cameras, many of which are prototypes and incomplete. Hardly a "deal" is it ? There's no gain to me. I usually have a bunch of other cameras on set. A "free" Blackmagic camera doesn't suddenly make me more popular with producers. They care about results. It certainly doesn't get me hired, and most of them could care less which camera it's shot with. The last show I shot had 2 x Alexas, a C300, a RED EPIC, 2 pocket's and a BMCC.

The very fact that I'm camera agnostic should tell you something.

Just because I don't voice concerns publicly doesn't mean I don't voice them.

Thanks for the sledging.

jb

They don't respond to criticism and ignore people who have had enough of being lied to, what they do do is get a "respectable" cinematographer named JB to come on here and worship the ground they walk on pretending to be independent,

BMD don't "get" me to do anything.

I'm not on the payroll.

I don't have adverts for BMD on my blog.

I don't do world tours and classes.

BMD invited me to IBC last year. I paid for my own meals.

I have an informal arrangement and I give them early feedback on their cameras and test them daily in real production environments. I can't even release most of the footage I shoot with the cameras.

I get cameras, many of which are prototypes and incomplete. Hardly a "deal" is it ? There's no gain to me. I usually have a bunch of other cameras on set. A "free" Blackmagic camera doesn't suddenly make me more popular with producers. They care about results. It certainly doesn't get me hired, and most of them could care less which camera it's shot with. The last show I shot had 2 x Alexas, a C300, a RED EPIC, 2 pocket's and a BMCC.

The very fact that I'm camera agnostic should tell you something.

Just because I don't voice concerns publicly doesn't mean I don't voice them.

Thanks for the sledging.

jb

You do voice your opinion of BM extremely often! But it is only ever running to their defence or making up really shallow excuses for poor poor business management comparing them to apple, APPLE! of all companies! a company that creates some of the best most reliable equipment in the world that is shipped on time every single year! You constantly defend the bad decisions they make, saying that there was no delay in the pocket is laughable, when one of the only people that received one in july was you! I think people can clearly see by your constant need to jump to their defence, but when asked to back up your posts you just respond with oh well I don't speak for BMD! very odd for someone who is independent and has no benefits for defending them.

You constantly defend the bad decisions they make, saying that there was no delay in the pocket is laughable, when one of the only people that received one in july was you!

You're quoting from other threads.

The fact is they shipped pocket cameras in July. It takes time for them to get through customs etc. I also did say they shipped them "more or less" on time. I don't see it as being "delayed".

You obviously do.

jb

"I get cameras, many of which are prototypes and incomplete. Hardly a "deal" is it ?"

Well by the looks of it, that is what the general public are getting as well!

@Darkfable I purchased 2 pocket cameras, and I received both of them on 8/22/2013
sold them both unopened for a profit of $1000.
I didn't even know of the blooming orbs problem, and guess what...I don't care.

Now "Every time you hear a release date" you should take advantage of it, It's just a camera like any other, nothing special other than RAW and price.

Darkfable, John Brawley does not deserve any negativity from us, he has only tried to enlighten us about the BMD cameras, trust me I have tried to blame, bash, and embarrass JB and I regret every word.

He is not the problem.

I think using the word "dishonesty is rather harsh." BMD set some very aggressive deadlines for themselves that they missed (so far by just a little but), but they haven't lied to us about anything.

The main frustration arises from the fact that a great many of us are very excited for these cameras and anxious both about the bugs present any the slow shipping, and the fact that the company is slightly less transparent than we'd like.

In my experience, BMD updates more frequently and is more transparent than most of the average big electronics companies with which is competes, like Panasonic or Canon. On the other hand, the cameras do lack some basic functionality most of use would expect from a camera like this, like audio meters, and the company's ability to fulfill orders is less than the giants like Sony.

I think also, that blackmagic has announced a lot of very impressive products in very short time frame and some of us may worry they've spread themselves too thin and would rather they focused on polishing the original bmcc...but for me personally, if that was the case, I wouldn't currently own a BMD camera, because I was holding out for an active mft mount, which I finally got with my bmpcc.

It would be very, very nice if BMD hired someone (or utilized an existing employee) to be more communicative with us. Kristian and Joshua have been great on the orbs issue, but it would be nice if we got more feedback on the most often reported bugs and feature requests, such as the 180 degree bug, audio meters, ability to format cards, the status of the 4k camera and shipping expectations.

Of course, they may want to hide their corporate strategy from competitors until the last possible moment a la Steve Jobs (although, as a smaller company, transparency could be one of their biggest advantages, if they let it). Or the lawyers may just be telling them to release limited information. Lawyers hate transparency. And, on the occasions when people like. Joshua Heller have been very responsive, these forums have a tendency to work themselves into a rage.

I think going after John Brawley is totally misguided. John released as much information and footage to us as he was allowed to. He's contributed to this forum a great deal and he's not an employee of the company. In all of the examples I can see, his defense of the company has been from the most aggressive and unreasonable attacks.

I also think we can all thank him for testing and giving feedback on preproduction cameras. I've gotten to do similar things in the past and trust me, we should all be thankful that experienced real-world users are giving feedback on product designs before they hit the market.

APPLE! of all companies! a company that creates some of the best most reliable equipment in the world....

Yeah, check any Apple forum and have your pants set on fire.

I know JB isn't the problem that is why the majority of my comment was aimed at BMD, I've watched his work and it is incredible stuff! there is no doubt he is an amazing Cinematographer. My issue is that he is very quick to jump and shoot down anyone who has any VALID criticism of BMD and the way they have awfully managed their products and communication.

What are the facts?

1. Every time BMD release a camera it is delayed!

2. Every time BMD release a camera the quantity for a professional company is laughable. I mean do they have like one 10 year old building these things in his garage for minimum wage or what? This further adds to the delays of fact number 1.

3. The products that do eventually leave the factory are plagued with problems. Who is quality checking these things?

4.BMD don't learn from their mistakes. Even now they are giving a 3rd or 4th release date for the 4K and still have no footage to show! JUST SAY IT WILL BE 3 MONTHS!!!! STOP STOP STOP STOP saying it will be 2 weeks every 2 weeks!!! how infuriating can a company be?? JUST STOP LYING!

JB hasn't criticised their poor time management, their dishonesty, their poor quality control, but he has shot down any paying customer who has raised these problems and is angry that they are being treated so unprofessionally. So yeh it is pretty clear that JB isn't independent in all this, whether that means he is getting loads of free gear to test and keep before anyone else or simply that he is friends with the guys and will never criticise them on these grounds. Whatever the case is, it is painfully clear that he paints BMD in an unrealistically positive light despite all the facts raised daily that BMD are doing a lousy job at best! when JB gets challenged on anything he says when praising BMD he just responds with I don't know I'm not an official representative.
Either you know what is going on behind the scened or you don't!
Don't say one thing that is happening behind the scenes, then when asked about it, say I don't know I don't work for BMD!

SO yeh, I don't have any personal problems with JB, He is fantastic at what he does and I admire him for that, but pretending that he is impartial when it is plain as day that he is their unofficial camera, beta, tester, buddy pal, is just more lies to the BMD line of deceit.

The major problem I have is that I love the image! Ive worked on a C300 and a RED scarlet, and neither compare in my opinion. I don't know how a company can get something so right yet everything else so wrong! I have shot 1 shoot on my BMCC and now the camera is dead! I have to waste a week sending it to BM to get repaired which means my next client doesn't get what they paid for!

Before anyone says, don't like it? buy something else! That comment is invalid! There is nothing else for anywhere near that price, and no getting a camera that doesn't switch on is not getting what you pay for even at these low prices. bricks in the department store are cheaper!

This is supposed to be a pro camera, if it is this unreliable then it is defiantly not a pro camera!

Yes these comments are out of frustration, BMD are a frustrating company!
They have the capacity and ability to be great! But it looks like they have no interest in that, they would rather mess around giving make believe dates and make amazing cameras that don't work!

it could all be solved with one simple thing!
Give yourselves an extra 4-6 months to deliver these cameras, this would give you longer to perfect the camera, longer to make sure it does what it says it does, longer to meet deadlines and longer to build the backorder before release.

Giving a date that you can't meet then rushing out a shoddy camera because you are short on time is crazy buisness! Build a stockpile rather than posting one at a time as they come off the conveyer belt!

Blackmagic are new to the camera scene, cut them some slack!

I've returned a camera that was faulty and i'm not complaining... I think Blackmagic are doing a great job and I really don't think anything they're doing could be classed as an 'illegal practice'.

*sigh*

A.

APPLE! of all companies! a company that creates some of the best most reliable equipment in the world that is shipped on time every single year!

!@##$$%%#@
Self censored.

The major problem I have is that I love the image! Ive worked on a C300 and a RED scarlet, and neither compare in my opinion. I don't know how a company can get something so right yet everything else so wrong! I have shot 1 shoot on my BMCC and now the camera is dead! I have to waste a week sending it to BM to get repaired which means my next client doesn't get what they paid for!

Before anyone says, don't like it? buy something else! That comment is invalid! There is nothing else for anywhere near that price, and no getting a camera that doesn't switch on is not getting what you pay for even at these low prices. bricks in the department store are cheaper!

This is supposed to be a pro camera, if it is this unreliable then it is defiantly not a pro camera!

Yes these comments are out of frustration, BMD are a frustrating company!
They have the capacity and ability to be great! But it looks like they have no interest in that, they would rather mess around giving make believe dates and make amazing cameras that don't work!

it could all be solved with one simple thing!
Give yourselves an extra 4-6 months to deliver these cameras, this would give you longer to perfect the camera, longer to make sure it does what it says it does, longer to meet deadlines and longer to build the backorder before release.

Giving a date that you can't meet then rushing out a shoddy camera because you are short on time is crazy buisness! Build a stockpile rather than posting one at a time as they come off the conveyer belt!

Good post! How did your camera die?

The major problem I have is that I love the image! Ive worked on a C300 and a RED scarlet, and neither compare in my opinion. I don't know how a company can get something so right yet everything else so wrong! I have shot 1 shoot on my BMCC and now the camera is dead! I have to waste a week sending it to BM to get repaired which means my next client doesn't get what they paid for!

Before anyone says, don't like it? buy something else! That comment is invalid! There is nothing else for anywhere near that price, and no getting a camera that doesn't switch on is not getting what you pay for even at these low prices. bricks in the department store are cheaper!

This is supposed to be a pro camera, if it is this unreliable then it is defiantly not a pro camera!

Yes these comments are out of frustration, BMD are a frustrating company!
They have the capacity and ability to be great! But it looks like they have no interest in that, they would rather mess around giving make believe dates and make amazing cameras that don't work!

it could all be solved with one simple thing!
Give yourselves an extra 4-6 months to deliver these cameras, this would give you longer to perfect the camera, longer to make sure it does what it says it does, longer to meet deadlines and longer to build the backorder before release.

Giving a date that you can't meet then rushing out a shoddy camera because you are short on time is crazy buisness! Build a stockpile rather than posting one at a time as they come off the conveyer belt!

Good post! How did your camera die?

Thank you! Battery just stopped taking a charge one day!

For the others that say cut them some slack, I'm guessing you think paying £1500 for a breeze block is a good deal? Or letting clients down is good practice? Is it good practice to put out defective products each year? Is that common practice? If you think lying to customers by saying products do what they don't is good practice, then You my friend are a fanboy!

And yes it is illegal, false advertising is illegal! When a product page says, this camera DOES shoot in RAW and in the box it says that the camera DOES shoot in raw. Not one place on either of these places or in the online store does it say- RAW to be hopefully added in the future.
This is as plain as it comes, false advertising. So BMD are committing a crime!

When are BMD going to stop lying and also release satisfactory products?

Every time you hear a release date you know, you can see by the body language on these BMD representatives faces that they are lying through their teeth! Why not just be honest and say look, we have got this new camera coming out, it will be acailable by Christmas. Rather than 'hey guys, we have an idea for a camera, it will be shipping tomorrow? The next day! Deffo next week! Yep it's all cool it will be with you in 3 weeks. It is pathetic behaviour for a company that considers themselves professional! The truth is they are a bunch of amaters that are burrird way too deep in their own BS!

They are so full of pride that they never swallow and say, look we won't make that same mistake again we are gonna give ourselves enough time to build this camera. But no lying is a better option!
When they finally do release 3 cameras into the market they are miss sold as something they are not! The BMCC is still missing features stated a year ago that it would have, the pocket camera is stated as shipping with RAW on the product page, the stores, and the box. So anyone who doesn't follow the forums but buys this camera in the specs stated by BMD are being lied to and sold a product that does not do anything like the product description. This I'm afraid is not only deceitful but also an Illegal practice! But BMD don't care if what they are doing is dishonest and illegal as long as you but the product!

They don't respond to criticism and ignore people who have had enough of being lied to, what they do do is get a "respectable" cinematographer named JB to come on here and worship the ground they walk on pretending to be independent, dispute getting a constant flow of free cameras from BMD. JB would never ever criticise the deceitful, lying, illegal behavior of Blackmagic design.

After constant delays with the BMCC I canceled my pre order and pre ordered the pocket camera under the promise that these would have no problem being shipped in July. (Brawley insists that these were shipped in July because he received all 5 they made in the 4 months prior) to all the peasants like us who ordered in the first hours of NAB we are still waiting at the end of September, with no sign at all of any 4K.
When the anyone did receive a pocket camera, it was usually a camera celebrity or company that would help in the promotion of BMD dispite promises that it would be first come first served and to add insult to injury that would sometimes receive 2 each, Again BMD incapable of telling the truth!
The general overview of this camera was that it wasn't a quality product, plagued with shoddy manufacturing problems such as, incredibly poor battery life, white orbs, shocking sound, display problems, poor build etc etc!
After seeing that this was a shoddily made camera I decided to buy a BMCC now that they had slashed the price by a $1000.

One or 2 weeks after receiving my BMCC it died and has to be sent back if repair. It seems that there are more broken, defective and unuasable cameras being sent out of the BMD factory's than good working cameras! Why??

BMD! Why should we hold any faith in you as a respectable company, after a terrible track record, why do you still give out reduculously optimistic dates? Do you enjoy getting a bad reputation??
If you just gave yourselves 3 extra months on your deadlines you could be respected for releasing productucts even a few days before! And thus way you would have more time to refine your products rather than sending out batches and batches of defective products 2 months late!
I don't get it, it is the most common sense thing to do. But for some reason you guys prefer lying about release dates and ignoring the problems with the cameras, then you tell everyone that the customer is what BMD is all about! Ha ha that is laughable! I've never seen such lack if respect from a company to their "valued" customers in all my life!

I know this will be ignored, after all your ignorance and dishonesty is making you a lot of money!
Thanks

1+

You constantly defend the bad decisions they make, saying that there was no delay in the pocket is laughable, when one of the only people that received one in july was you!

You're quoting from other threads.

The fact is they shipped pocket cameras in July. It takes time for them to get through customs etc. I also did say they shipped them "more or less" on time. I don't see it as being "delayed".

You obviously do.

jb

I was told by a senior staff member/director of a very well known Sydney based film/broadcast retailer that they are being assembled in Melbourne.

image.jpg (116.54 KiB) Viewed 12608 times

How can anyone say that is not false advertising?? Does it say that this camera shoots cinema DNG RAW? Yes it does in multiple places!
Does it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No it doesn't!
When will it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No one knows, perhaps when the BMCC gets audio meters!
This is as clear as it gets false advertising!

How can anyone say that is not false advertising?? Does it say that this camera shoots cinema DNG RAW? Yes it does in multiple places!
Does it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No it doesn't!
When will it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No one knows, perhaps when the BMCC gets audio meters!
This is as clear as it gets false advertising!

So sue them. Or would you rather just constantly rant about not being coddled by a camera company?

I'm starting to wonder How many people have had to send their cameras back disregarding the orb issue?

How can anyone say that is not false advertising?? Does it say that this camera shoots cinema DNG RAW? Yes it does in multiple places!
Does it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No it doesn't!
When will it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No one knows, perhaps when the BMCC gets audio meters!
This is as clear as it gets false advertising!

So sue them. Or would you rather just constantly rant about not being coddled by a camera company?

Coddled?? Ha ha! Wtf?? Yeh man canon coddles me way too much man! You know sending me cameras that do what they say and actually turn on!! Damn them and their high tech wizardry! Only the top companies can make cameras that work and do t need to lie in the product page jeez, I thought everyone knew that??

IDIOT!

And yes it is illegal, false advertising is illegal! When a product page says, this camera DOES shoot in RAW and in the box it says that the camera DOES shoot in raw. Not one place on either of these places or in the online store does it say- RAW to be hopefully added in the future.
This is as plain as it comes, false advertising. So BMD are committing a crime!

I'm not a lawyer, but it's my understanding that false advertising constitutes and actionable tort, at least in the US, not a criminal act. You could make a case that by mislabeling the box (for now) they're committing fraud, but given they're repeated commitment to deliver cinemadng raw in future updates, I think they likely would have delivered raw by the time the case went to trial, and it would be thrown out.

By the way, the alternative to adding the cinemadng on later, was to delay shipping the pocket until this one feature was ready. I'm much happier having my camera now shooting ProRes and adding cinemadng later, than I would be waiting until later for the next software version and having no pocket camera in the meantime.



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How can anyone say that is not false advertising?? Does it say that this camera shoots cinema DNG RAW? Yes it does in multiple places!
Does it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No it doesn't!
When will it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No one knows, perhaps when the BMCC gets audio meters!
This is as clear as it gets false advertising!

So sue them. Or would you rather just constantly rant about not being coddled by a camera company?

Coddled?? Ha ha! Wtf?? Yeh man canon coddles me way too much man! You know sending me cameras that do what they say and actually turn on!! Damn them and their high tech wizardry! Only the top companies can make cameras that work and do t need to lie in the product page jeez, I thought everyone knew that??

IDIOT!

Yeah, I'm the idiot.

How can anyone say that is not false advertising?? Does it say that this camera shoots cinema DNG RAW? Yes it does in multiple places!
Does it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No it doesn't!
When will it shoot in cinema DNG RAW? No one knows, perhaps when the BMCC gets audio meters!
This is as clear as it gets false advertising!

So sue them. Or would you rather just constantly rant about not being coddled by a camera company?

And yes it is illegal, false advertising is illegal! When a product page says, this camera DOES shoot in RAW and in the box it says that the camera DOES shoot in raw. Not one place on either of these places or in the online store does it say- RAW to be hopefully added in the future.
This is as plain as it comes, false advertising. So BMD are committing a crime!

I'm not a lawyer, but it's my understanding that false advertising constitutes and actionable tort, at least in the US, not a criminal act. You could make a case that by mislabeling the box (for now) they're committing fraud, but given they're repeated commitment to deliver cinemadng raw in future updates, I think they likely would have delivered raw by the time the case went to trial, and it would be thrown out.

By the way, the alternative to adding the cinemadng on later, was to delay shipping the pocket until this one feature was ready. I'm much happier having my camera now shooting ProRes and adding cinemadng later, than I would be waiting until later for the next software version and having no pocket camera in the meantime.



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Ok so what is the problem with writing on the product page, cinema DNG RAW to be added in a future firmware.

Nothing is the answer!

The problem is it is deliberately misleading to sell more cameras! Not everyone comes on the forum to see unofficial announcements that say it doesn't shoot RAW.
If I stumbled across the site and saw that page i could be blown away by the fact such a small camera shoots RAW! Get it home and find out it doesn't do any such thing!

Do you think that is honest practice, by an honest company?

Seriously Darkfable, you're under no obligation to buy one of their cameras. These cameras aren't a necessity for human survival
Like bread or water. This isn't an entitlement, it's a product in a free marketplace.

You've said yourself that you want one because the quality is so high. I agree.

The prices of BMD cameras, compared to their closest competitors, are extremely inexpensive.

The trade off to getting a cheap, high quality product is that you're going to pay with time. Time in terms of shipping delays, time in terms of waiting for software updates (during which the camera is still perfectly usable), and time in terms of waiting behind hundreds of other people who are willing to wait for such an amazing product at such a low price.

If you don't want to wait but want a high quality product, go buy an Alexa or a Red Epic or a Sony F65 or whatever. These cameras are all available now and produce an incredible, professional image. Of course, you're going to pay a hell of a lot for them.

If you want to remain on a budget but want something now, go buy a gh3, or a 5d mark iii or a c100. These are excellent cameras, they're just about as finished as they'll ever be and you could probably walk into a store near you today and leave with one.

But if you want a camera who's quality exceeds, in your own opinion, the red scarlet, for a price just slight more than a 5d III, then you're going to have to be a little bit patient. Remember, the 4k camera was only even announced in the spring. Today's the first day of fall. That's not THAT long.


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Richard Oakes,

Be careful man. You are throwing a kiddy fit online. People can google this and go, hey I don't want to work with this guy.

When I'm angry, I sometimes write out something and then hit the delete key. Maybe should try this.

You just trashed John Brawley really badly. I think your rep right now is rock bottom. I'm just saying, don't post any more rants for your own good. If you're posting more, start apologising, that's my opinion.

Jules

Seriously Darkfable, you're under no obligation to buy one of their cameras. These cameras aren't a necessity for human survival
Like bread or water. This isn't an entitlement, it's a product in a free marketplace.

You've said yourself that you want one because the quality is so high. I agree.

The prices of BMD cameras, compared to their closest competitors, are extremely inexpensive.

The trade off to getting a cheap, high quality product is that you're going to pay with time. Time in terms of shipping delays, time in terms of waiting for software updates (during which the camera is still perfectly usable), and time in terms of waiting behind hundreds of other people who are willing to wait for such an amazing product at such a low price.

If you don't want to wait but want a high quality product, go buy an Alexa or a Red Epic or a Sony F65 or whatever. These cameras are all available now and produce an incredible, professional image. Of course, you're going to pay a hell of a lot for them.

If you want to remain on a budget but want something now, go buy a gh3, or a 5d mark iii or a c100. These are excellent cameras, they're just about as finished as they'll ever be and you could probably walk into a store near you today and leave with one.

But if you want a camera who's quality exceeds, in your own opinion, the red scarlet, for a price just slight more than a 5d III, then you're going to have to be a little bit patient. Remember, the 4k camera was only even announced in the spring. Today's the first day of fall. That's not THAT long.


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Hi there, thanks for your comments, it's not a question of waiting for me, I'm just frustrated at the whole company ethos.

I have a BMCC but it won't turn on! It is one of the many many many cameras that have been sent out faulty! I wish they took more time to make their products, to ensure quality control! I just wish they didn't tell everyone dates they could never keep! And continue to do so every release. Like I said before, I seriously believe that BMD could solve all their problems by simply adding 3-6 months to their estimated dates! No one would get disappointed at their incompetence, the sheer amount of faulty units would drop considerably, they wouldn't need to lie On their product pages, their reputation wouldn't get such a battering from constant missing deadlines. And people would know where they stand.

Ok so what is the problem with writing on the product page, cinema DNG RAW to be added in a future firmware.

Nothing is the answer!

The problem is it is deliberately misleading to sell more cameras! Not everyone comes on the forum to see unofficial announcements that say it doesn't shoot RAW.
If I stumbled across the site and saw that page i could be blown away by the fact such a small camera shoots RAW! Get it home and find out it doesn't do any such thing!

Do you think that is honest practice, by an honest company?

I agree, an asterix in the site for now explaining that this is coming in the future would be nice, but it's really not a big deal.

False advertising and fraud claims require that you show that the plaintiff was deceived. Let's be real, the early buyers of this camera are camera heads. If you can find someone who bought a pocket believing that it had raw, then discovered it didn't yet, wasn't willing to wait for the feature, didn't want the camera any more and couldn't get a refund from BMD, well, then, you got me.

But since the cameras sell in the grey market for far more than their retail price right now, I find that scenario hard to believe.

Darkfable, I imagine you in a restaurant complaining about the line, the service, the food, and the ambiance, but sticking around because it was the most nutritious restaurant in town.

If you think Blackmagic is dishonest (a statement I couldn't disagree with more--I think they are far more honest than many companies, although more transparency never hurts) then don't buy their cameras. Cancel your pre-order. Buy a Canon or Panasonic or Sony or Arri or Red or Digital Bolex. Why on earth would you buy a product as crucial to your production business as a camera body from a company you didn't trust? The image quality from all those companies is more than good enough. You clearly think Blackmagic is a terrible company that screws their customers, so why do business with them?

I for one think BMD is great and wish I could buy publicly traded shares on a US market.



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Ok so what is the problem with writing on the product page, cinema DNG RAW to be added in a future firmware.

Nothing is the answer!

The problem is it is deliberately misleading to sell more cameras! Not everyone comes on the forum to see unofficial announcements that say it doesn't shoot RAW.
If I stumbled across the site and saw that page i could be blown away by the fact such a small camera shoots RAW! Get it home and find out it doesn't do any such thing!

Do you think that is honest practice, by an honest company?

I agree, an asterix in the site for now explaining that this is coming in the future would be nice, but it's really not a big deal.

False advertising and fraud claims require that you show that the plaintiff was deceived. Let's be real, the early buyers of this camera are camera heads. If you can find someone who bought a pocket believing that it had raw, then discovered it didn't yet, wasn't willing to wait for the feature, didn't want the camera any more and couldn't get a refund from BMD, well, then, you got me.

But since the cameras sell in the grey market for far more than their retail price right now, I find that scenario hard to believe.

Darkfable, I imagine you in a restaurant complaining about the line, the service, the food, and the ambiance, but sticking around because it was the most nutritious restaurant in town.

If you think Blackmagic is dishonest (a statement I couldn't disagree with more--I think they are far more honest than many companies, although more transparency never hurts) then don't buy their cameras. Cancel your pre-order. Buy a Canon or Panasonic or Sony or Arri or Red or Digital Bolex. Why on earth would you buy a product as crucial to your production business as a camera body from a company you didn't trust? The image quality from all those companies is more than good enough. You clearly think Blackmagic is a terrible company that screws their customers, so why do business with them?

I for one think BMD is great and wish I could buy publicly traded shares on a US market.



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I think my main issue is that I really want to like them, they are the underdogs and their image is amazing! I have one of their cameras but every time I put faith in them again I'm let down! My brand new BMCC not turning on being the real kicker! I want them to realise that the way they promote their product by giving stupid dates and false advertising is only doing them harm and creating distrust! and that is what is happening all over this forum! People have lost trust because of the way that BM promote and communicate.

It just seems like BM keep making the same mistakes again and again! If they released a BMCC 60fps global shutter next year I would be hard pushed not to pre order to compliment my BMCC if it gets fixed. But I would want to know that they have learned valuable lessons about this. But so far it looks like they don't even see a problem to start with, let alone have learned or thought about how to improve it!

Have BMD refused to fix your faulty camera then?

It's a real names forum by the way

Have BMD refused to fix your faulty camera then?

It's a real names forum by the way

I have my real name!

look

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Too many stuff to read... i think all it matter is if blackmagic has been doing false advertising.. and the answer is YES.. AND THEY KEEP DOING IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN
Lyers? YES
Worst customer service ever? YES
Lack of comunication? YES

Richard is speaking from personal experience and has actually been quite honest and courteous but is being waylaid by many attention speakers who cant see the wood for the trees and just being a pain for the fun of it. Its about time some here instead of grandstanding pondered the future and what it might hold for them. I mean seriously Don't you want to be informed? Are you really happy to attack some poor fellow filmmaker who has a had rough ride? Shame on you I bet some of you love giving a good kick in.
It could soon be your turn to be holding a $1500 brick wont that be funny?

There are issues that need to be addressed here and one of them IS the lack of communication.

However I will add BMD are not crooks and they do have good intentions so lets keep it real.

why doesn't he just take his money to another company already... sure mistakes have been made but if your are truly unhappy go buy another camera already. i had to cancel my order so i am now at the back of the line waiting to see what happens. sure people may be frustrated but if you are truly unhappy go somewhere that makes you happy

Richard is speaking from personal experience and has actually been quite honest and courteous but is being waylaid by many attention speakers who cant see the wood for the trees and just being a pain for the fun of it.

They don't respond to criticism and ignore people who have had enough of being lied to, what they do do is get a "respectable" cinematographer named JB to come on here and worship the ground they walk on pretending to be independent, dispute getting a constant flow of free cameras from BMD. JB would never ever criticise the deceitful, lying, illegal behavior of Blackmagic design.
Thanks

That's courteous? It's one thing to air grievances, another to intentionally defame someone.

Richard is speaking from personal experience and has actually been quite honest and courteous but is being waylaid by many attention speakers who cant see the wood for the trees and just being a pain for the fun of it.

They don't respond to criticism and ignore people who have had enough of being lied to, what they do do is get a "respectable" cinematographer named JB to come on here and worship the ground they walk on pretending to be independent, dispute getting a constant flow of free cameras from BMD. JB would never ever criticise the deceitful, lying, illegal behavior of Blackmagic design.
Thanks

That's courteous? It's one thing to air grievances, another to intentionally defame someone.

Yes I agree but who's goading him there? He also said that he respected JBs work so lets not take it out of context.

He wasn't goaded into the comment about JB it was in his original post

why doesn't he just take his money to another company already... sure mistakes have been made but if your are truly unhappy go buy another camera already. i had to cancel my order so i am now at the back of the line waiting to see what happens. sure people may be frustrated but if you are truly unhappy go somewhere that makes you happy

That is so disengenuos He already explained why he wouldn't go somewhere else Can I ask you to either read previous posts so your up to speed or don't post when you don't know what you are talking about.
The fact is BMD are affordable and the deal is potentially groundbreaking and no one should be moaning about that but some are The only gripe is about communication and the lack of. All people want to know is why the delays are happening and we have been updated on this but the time is approaching for the BM 4k release and NO footage. Why is the lack of footage a problem? Because we've been here before and that's the fear We may get an update weeks after the deadline comes and goes if history repeats itself. With no knowledge of why how or what is happening. I am not screaming in anger and I can live and be happy with no updates but it doesn't mean I shouldn't have a say This is what forums are for Sensible discussion about the issues.

He wasn't goaded into the comment about JB it was in his original post

I guess his frustration is down to the camera breaking down I don't agree with everything he is saying although I don't know his circumstances If I was shooting a film and the camera died and I couldn't get a replacement and then came up against little support and a forum blaming me I might very well get irate so I do understand why he might feel frustrated. Maybe what he needs is some great customer support and some understanding and be updated about delays Then maybe he might be praising instead of this.

He didn't state what customer support he got. If the camera broke down in the first couple of weeks then a good dealer would have simply replaced it, certainly here in the UK it is a legal requirement to do so.

Of course it's annoying when this happens and it does happen with other cameras too, look at the early days of RED, but it's still no excuse for those comments about JB

Darkfable, i can understand all your feelings about the BM politics; except the John Brawley part...
I have never had a delivery problem like with Bm now;
If a company announces a product for a date, you are preparing yourself, that this will happen on this date;
BM has invented a new definition of delivering:
Sending tens of cameras does not mean "delivering"! Basta!
I have prepared myself for the Pocket will be shipped in July, so i had sold my GH2....
I had 3-4 customers which asked me, whether i could mak a music or a commercial video for them;
I had to postpone them for 2 months now and the jobs are away now...
F*cking situation for me now...

NEVER plan jobs based on a product that hasn't been released, it doesn't matter who makes it.

If I give a date, my business practices and expectations are to hit that date.

No excuses, people want results. If you don't have a sure date than give yourself extra time than what you think it's going to be and deliver early. It not that hard

I would just like to say...

These are very approximate figures:

Excl. lenses...
basic kit with BMCC : $4,000
basic kit with ARRI Alexa : $80,000

Now we know both cameras gives similar end results. Arri has got slightly higher res, dynamic range etc. But it's similar.

If you want everything OPs suggesting and others in this thread are suggesting, you get an ARRI (or RED or Sony). You'll still of course might find issues with them.

BMD cameras are bargain bucket in comparison. Customer service and reliability is going to suffer in comparison, that's the rules of the game when you're not paying enough for it.

So suck it up folks. Live with it. We got the choice now to *own* a RAW capture device at a very low price in comparison or go pay 20x more money.


Jules

I would just like to say...

These are very approximate figures:

Excl. lenses...
basic kit with BMCC : $4,000
basic kit with ARRI Alexa : $80,000

Now we know both cameras gives similar end results. Arri has got slightly higher res, dynamic range etc. But it's similar.

If you want everything OPs suggesting and others in this thread are suggesting, you get an ARRI (or RED or Sony). You'll still of course might find issues with them.

BMD cameras are bargain bucket in comparison. Customer service and reliability is going to suffer in comparison, that's the rules of the game when you're not paying enough for it.

So suck it up folks. Live with it. We got the choice now to *own* a RAW capture device at a very low price in comparison or go pay 20x more money.


Jules

So to sum up everyone!
If you want a camera that shoots RAW and works spend £50,000 but if you need a camera that shoots RAW and doesn't work buy a Blackmagic. After all this camera shoots RAW whether it turns on or not! Be grateful!

So everyone's advice on here is to buy an arri if you want a camera that works! For this price you should expect it to fall apart! Great nice one!

Darkfable, most of us who have a BMCC or BMPCC don't seem to have had the reliability issues you've had. I really for bad for you. But for the rest of us, could you explain the situation. I'd love to hear your story of trying to get it repaired, because if it's truly bad, then I'll have to cease using the BMPCC on certain projects until I have a backup. Please, let us know.

I would just like to say...

These are very approximate figures:

Excl. lenses...
basic kit with BMCC : $4,000
basic kit with ARRI Alexa : $80,000

Now we know both cameras gives similar end results. Arri has got slightly higher res, dynamic range etc. But it's similar.

If you want everything OPs suggesting and others in this thread are suggesting, you get an ARRI (or RED or Sony). You'll still of course might find issues with them.

BMD cameras are bargain bucket in comparison. Customer service and reliability is going to suffer in comparison, that's the rules of the game when you're not paying enough for it.

So suck it up folks. Live with it. We got the choice now to *own* a RAW capture device at a very low price in comparison or go pay 20x more money.


Jules

+1

Darkfable, most of us who have a BMCC or BMPCC don't seem to have had the reliability issues you've had. I really for bad for you. But for the rest of us, could you explain the situation. I'd love to hear your story of trying to get it repaired, because if it's truly bad, then I'll have to cease using the BMPCC on certain projects until I have a backup. Please, let us know.

I run my own production company with between 3-5 filming + vfx projects a month.
I pre ordered the BMCC back in Feb, I was told I was 4th in line and it would be delivered within 2-3 weeks
3 weeks later I phoned and they said I was 12th in line and had another 5 -10 weeks wait. Not long after this NAB came so I canceled my BMCC and pre ordered the pocket as it was promised to be on time and not have the same delays as before. Then July came and went and only the elect were receiving the cameras, I thought oh here we go again! When I did start to see the reviews I was seeing that the pocket was plagued with troubles. At this point BMD dropped the price of the BMCC. So I decided to go back to to change back to the BMCC. I drove to pick it up and it worked fine, I did my first shoot on it and it worked fine. Just before my second booking with this camera I tried turning it on but it wouldn't turn on, so I thought the battery had run out, left it on to charge over night. The next day nothing! The battery was dead! I needed to get it fixed for my shoot, people are paying me for filming with this camera. I phoned blackmagic and they said to send it to them and it would be repaired in a week or 2.
I told them I can't wait that long as I have 2 shoots lined up.
I asked if I took it back to the shop whether I could pick a new one up? I was told that it wasn't recommended. I ended up ringing the shop anyway who told me they would have to send it to blackmagic to confirm it was broken anyway, so would take even longer!

So now I'm in the position of having to either cancel clients or tell them that their work won't be at the same quality that I had previously stated. Making my business look unprofessional. When the camera comes back from repair, should I have to worry whether more problems occur, that seem to be common place by the looks of the forum, before every shoot?

Some people seem to think it strange wanting a reliable camera for £1500! This is odd to me. My £600 canon DSLR has never skipped a beat, by the standards on here I shouldn't expect anything less than it to fall to bits for that price!

I find young Mr. Richard Oakes' anger to be refreshing and to the point. The servicing intentions and capacities of the Company are ambiguous and uncertain at best, as many of these forum threads very clearly reveal. Not to mention the dog's breakfast of delays, feature withdrawals and unresolved issues to be endured before the camera can actually arrive and then break down. I'm Not Saying we deserve any better. But as for someone with Dan Abrams' standards -- "no excuses", I assume -- and from what I read in the forum and elsewhere, one back-up may not be nearly enough.

For the record I want this to work as much as any of you.

I find young Mr. Richard Oakes' anger to be refreshing and to the point. The servicing intentions and capacities of the Company are ambiguous and uncertain at best, as many of these forum threads very clearly reveal. Not to mention the dog's breakfast of delays, feature withdrawals and unresolved issues to be endured before the camera can actually arrive and then break down. I'm Not Saying we deserve any better. But as for someone with Dan Abrams' standards -- "no excuses", I assume -- and from what I read in the forum and elsewhere, one back-up may not be nearly enough.

For the record I want this to work as much as any of you.

Thank you!