Honesty and quality controll

Excl. lenses...
basic kit with BMCC : $4,000
basic kit with ARRI Alexa : $80,000

Customer service and reliability is going to suffer in comparison, that's the rules of the game when you're not paying enough for it.

Well, to be fair (and I ignore the answer completely) it'd be curious to know if ARRI service and general reliability is 80000/4000=20 times better then BMD. A quick google search for "Arri Alexa issues" brings 85.000 hits Perhaps the Arri users have larger budgets, more options for backup and rely on renting anyway, so the Arri service department probably deals with renting companies and they don't tend to post on forums.

So suck it up folks. Live with it. We got the choice now to *own* a RAW capture device at a very low price in comparison or go pay 20x more money.
Jules

Then perhaps it'd be wise to change the current name of this forum from "cinematography" to "BMD beta testers feedback"

Darkfable, most of us who have a BMCC or BMPCC don't seem to have had the reliability issues you've had. I really for bad for you. But for the rest of us, could you explain the situation. I'd love to hear your story of trying to get it repaired, because if it's truly bad, then I'll have to cease using the BMPCC on certain projects until I have a backup. Please, let us know.

I run my own production company with between 3-5 filming + vfx projects a month.
I pre ordered the BMCC back in Feb, I was told I was 4th in line and it would be delivered within 2-3 weeks
3 weeks later I phoned and they said I was 12th in line and had another 5 -10 weeks wait. Not long after this NAB came so I canceled my BMCC and pre ordered the pocket as it was promised to be on time and not have the same delays as before. Then July came and went and only the elect were receiving the cameras, I thought oh here we go again! When I did start to see the reviews I was seeing that the pocket was plagued with troubles. At this point BMD dropped the price of the BMCC. So I decided to go back to to change back to the BMCC. I drove to pick it up and it worked fine, I did my first shoot on it and it worked fine. Just before my second booking with this camera I tried turning it on but it wouldn't turn on, so I thought the battery had run out, left it on to charge over night. The next day nothing! The battery was dead! I needed to get it fixed for my shoot, people are paying me for filming with this camera. I phoned blackmagic and they said to send it to them and it would be repaired in a week or 2.
I told them I can't wait that long as I have 2 shoots lined up.
I asked if I took it back to the shop whether I could pick a new one up? I was told that it wasn't recommended. I ended up ringing the shop anyway who told me they would have to send it to blackmagic to confirm it was broken anyway, so would take even longer!

So now I'm in the position of having to either cancel clients or tell them that their work won't be at the same quality that I had previously stated. Making my business look unprofessional. When the camera comes back from repair, should I have to worry whether more problems occur, that seem to be common place by the looks of the forum, before every shoot?

Some people seem to think it strange wanting a reliable camera for £1500! This is odd to me. My £600 canon DSLR has never skipped a beat, by the standards on here I shouldn't expect anything less than it to fall to bits for that price!

I have to say none of that, in my opinion, makes me feel your vitriolic response is justified.

I've had $1500 canon dslrs crap out and need to be repaired. Ditto $1000 panasonics and $1200 olympus's. I've also had $4000 panasonics crap out on me and need to be sent in for repair. I've even been on set when multi-hundred thousand dollar Sony hdcam cameras broke (it was a rental). It's unfortunate, but it happens.

Pro-level repair programs can usually return the camera within a week, but they cost plenty and you have to pay for fedex. Sometimes they'll give you a loaner. Not every company has a pro-level repair program. It would be great if BMD added one.

For a regular, in-warranty repair, 1-2 weeks is pretty good. It's still good to have a backup for this purpose. The delays in the supply chain make it hard to obtain a backup, so I bring my gh2 to set. In a few months I expect I'll buy another bmpcc and bmpc4k when they're more widely available.

I think all of us understand your frustrations, but you're tone is over the top. They are not liars, they are not criminals, they are a company unused to making cameras that's delivering a product with some incredible benefits and an amazing price...with some frustrating downsides. You can see from reading my previous posts that I have my own frustrations over these cameras and I'm not afraid to share them: the supply chain could be improved, features that should be there are missing, etc. But I recognize that the price and image quality are well worth the compromises and I hope that by adding my feedback on forums such as this in a civil tone that blackmagic will listen and respond or use my feedback to improve the product. In my experience they have listened. A little but more transparency would be nice of course, but that's always the case.

I've personally had far more frustrating experiences with Canon, including a brand new canon dslr that cost more than my bmpcc which needed to be sent back right out of the box. Six weeks and $25 in shipping fees later, it was fixed, only to break again shortly after. These things happen. What matters is how the company responds. And getting you repaired camera in 2 weeks is a bit long but certainly not egregious in the meantime. If you have a shoot for which you absolutely NEED a bmcc might I suggest renting one? It's just two shoots and I suspect if you explain the situation calmly to BMD they'll do what they can to keep you happy (just as you do to keep your clients happy).

If they don't, then sell the camera and buy a 5DIII or something. The compromises involved in dealing with BMD may not be acceptable for you. That's fine. But dealing with any product is going to have compromises and that doesn't make BMD or Red or Canon or anyone liars and criminals. Every company mentioned makes some great products, each of which have their own set of downsides.


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Darkfable, most of us who have a BMCC or BMPCC don't seem to have had the reliability issues you've had. I really for bad for you. But for the rest of us, could you explain the situation. I'd love to hear your story of trying to get it repaired, because if it's truly bad, then I'll have to cease using the BMPCC on certain projects until I have a backup. Please, let us know.

I run my own production company with between 3-5 filming + vfx projects a month.
I pre ordered the BMCC back in Feb, I was told I was 4th in line and it would be delivered within 2-3 weeks
3 weeks later I phoned and they said I was 12th in line and had another 5 -10 weeks wait. Not long after this NAB came so I canceled my BMCC and pre ordered the pocket as it was promised to be on time and not have the same delays as before. Then July came and went and only the elect were receiving the cameras, I thought oh here we go again! When I did start to see the reviews I was seeing that the pocket was plagued with troubles. At this point BMD dropped the price of the BMCC. So I decided to go back to to change back to the BMCC. I drove to pick it up and it worked fine, I did my first shoot on it and it worked fine. Just before my second booking with this camera I tried turning it on but it wouldn't turn on, so I thought the battery had run out, left it on to charge over night. The next day nothing! The battery was dead! I needed to get it fixed for my shoot, people are paying me for filming with this camera. I phoned blackmagic and they said to send it to them and it would be repaired in a week or 2.
I told them I can't wait that long as I have 2 shoots lined up.
I asked if I took it back to the shop whether I could pick a new one up? I was told that it wasn't recommended. I ended up ringing the shop anyway who told me they would have to send it to blackmagic to confirm it was broken anyway, so would take even longer!

So now I'm in the position of having to either cancel clients or tell them that their work won't be at the same quality that I had previously stated. Making my business look unprofessional. When the camera comes back from repair, should I have to worry whether more problems occur, that seem to be common place by the looks of the forum, before every shoot?

Some people seem to think it strange wanting a reliable camera for £1500! This is odd to me. My £600 canon DSLR has never skipped a beat, by the standards on here I shouldn't expect anything less than it to fall to bits for that price!

I have to say none of that, in my opinion, makes me feel your vitriolic response is justified.

I've had $1500 canon dslrs crap out and need to be repaired. Ditto $1000 panasonics and $1200 olympus's. I've also had $4000 panasonics crap out on me and need to be sent in for repair. I've even been on set when multi-hundred thousand dollar Sony hdcam cameras broke (it was a rental). It's unfortunate, but it happens.

Pro-level repair programs can usually return the camera within a week, but they cost plenty and you have to pay for fedex. Sometimes they'll give you a loaner. Not every company has a pro-level repair program. It would be great if BMD added one.

For a regular, in-warranty repair, 1-2 weeks is pretty good. It's still good to have a backup for this purpose. The delays in the supply chain make it hard to obtain a backup, so I bring my gh2 to set. In a few months I expect I'll buy another bmpcc and bmpc4k when they're more widely available.

I think all of us understand your frustrations, but you're tone is over the top. They are not liars, they are not criminals, they are a company unused to making cameras that's delivering a product with some incredible benefits and an amazing price...with some frustrating downsides. You can see from reading my previous posts that I have my own frustrations over these cameras and I'm not afraid to share them: the supply chain could be improved, features that should be there are missing, etc. But I recognize that the price and image quality are well worth the compromises and I hope that by adding my feedback on forums such as this in a civil tone that blackmagic will listen and respond or use my feedback to improve the product. In my experience they have listened. A little but more transparency would be nice of course, but that's always the case.

I've personally had far more frustrating experiences with Canon, including a brand new canon dslr that cost more than my bmpcc which needed to be sent back right out of the box. Six weeks and $25 in shipping fees later, it was fixed, only to break again shortly after. These things happen. What matters is how the company responds. And getting you repaired camera in 2 weeks is a bit long but certainly not egregious in the meantime. If you have a shoot for which you absolutely NEED a bmcc might I suggest renting one? It's just two shoots and I suspect if you explain the situation calmly to BMD they'll do what they can to keep you happy (just as you do to keep your clients happy).

If they don't, then sell the camera and buy a 5DIII or something. The compromises involved in dealing with BMD may not be acceptable for you. That's fine. But dealing with any product is going to have compromises and that doesn't make BMD or Red or Canon or anyone liars and criminals. Every company mentioned makes some great products, each of which have their own set of downsides.


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+1

@DanAbrams Canon shmanon, Canon dslrs are hardly a comparison to this situation -- for one thing you can exchange defective new ones instanter in most big cities, there are lots of them, they are hardly a breakthrough, they are fungible, they are sold as stills cameras and so on, whereas BMD has marketed these as professional movie cameras and refused to make any provision for third party servicing. The head of the American office told me a while back that this was for reasons of "quality control," they didn't want hundreds of ma & pa stores sticking their fingers in, but clearly BMD is overwhelmed by the repair load in the midst of whatever production mess they are in. When I asked why they didn't designate say half a dozen authorized repair shops in the US, it seemed from his reaction that they'd never considered this, he said they would when there was time. Now just think how it is if you live in some small distant country with difficult borders?

Black Magic has turned out to be much better at making glittering web pages than what they put in the box. It has an obligation -- and I mean every kind of obligation, and not least to themselves, for their survival as an enterprise -- to create reasonable levels of expectation and support.

Darkfable, most of us who have a BMCC or BMPCC don't seem to have had the reliability issues you've had. I really for bad for you. But for the rest of us, could you explain the situation. I'd love to hear your story of trying to get it repaired, because if it's truly bad, then I'll have to cease using the BMPCC on certain projects until I have a backup. Please, let us know.

I run my own production company with between 3-5 filming + vfx projects a month.
I pre ordered the BMCC back in Feb, I was told I was 4th in line and it would be delivered within 2-3 weeks
3 weeks later I phoned and they said I was 12th in line and had another 5 -10 weeks wait. Not long after this NAB came so I canceled my BMCC and pre ordered the pocket as it was promised to be on time and not have the same delays as before. Then July came and went and only the elect were receiving the cameras, I thought oh here we go again! When I did start to see the reviews I was seeing that the pocket was plagued with troubles. At this point BMD dropped the price of the BMCC. So I decided to go back to to change back to the BMCC. I drove to pick it up and it worked fine, I did my first shoot on it and it worked fine. Just before my second booking with this camera I tried turning it on but it wouldn't turn on, so I thought the battery had run out, left it on to charge over night. The next day nothing! The battery was dead! I needed to get it fixed for my shoot, people are paying me for filming with this camera. I phoned blackmagic and they said to send it to them and it would be repaired in a week or 2.
I told them I can't wait that long as I have 2 shoots lined up.
I asked if I took it back to the shop whether I could pick a new one up? I was told that it wasn't recommended. I ended up ringing the shop anyway who told me they would have to send it to blackmagic to confirm it was broken anyway, so would take even longer!

So now I'm in the position of having to either cancel clients or tell them that their work won't be at the same quality that I had previously stated. Making my business look unprofessional. When the camera comes back from repair, should I have to worry whether more problems occur, that seem to be common place by the looks of the forum, before every shoot?

Some people seem to think it strange wanting a reliable camera for £1500! This is odd to me. My £600 canon DSLR has never skipped a beat, by the standards on here I shouldn't expect anything less than it to fall to bits for that price!

I have to say none of that, in my opinion, makes me feel your vitriolic response is justified.

I've had $1500 canon dslrs crap out and need to be repaired. Ditto $1000 panasonics and $1200 olympus's. I've also had $4000 panasonics crap out on me and need to be sent in for repair. I've even been on set when multi-hundred thousand dollar Sony hdcam cameras broke (it was a rental). It's unfortunate, but it happens.

Pro-level repair programs can usually return the camera within a week, but they cost plenty and you have to pay for fedex. Sometimes they'll give you a loaner. Not every company has a pro-level repair program. It would be great if BMD added one.

For a regular, in-warranty repair, 1-2 weeks is pretty good. It's still good to have a backup for this purpose. The delays in the supply chain make it hard to obtain a backup, so I bring my gh2 to set. In a few months I expect I'll buy another bmpcc and bmpc4k when they're more widely available.

I think all of us understand your frustrations, but you're tone is over the top. They are not liars, they are not criminals, they are a company unused to making cameras that's delivering a product with some incredible benefits and an amazing price...with some frustrating downsides. You can see from reading my previous posts that I have my own frustrations over these cameras and I'm not afraid to share them: the supply chain could be improved, features that should be there are missing, etc. But I recognize that the price and image quality are well worth the compromises and I hope that by adding my feedback on forums such as this in a civil tone that blackmagic will listen and respond or use my feedback to improve the product. In my experience they have listened. A little but more transparency would be nice of course, but that's always the case.

I've personally had far more frustrating experiences with Canon, including a brand new canon dslr that cost more than my bmpcc which needed to be sent back right out of the box. Six weeks and $25 in shipping fees later, it was fixed, only to break again shortly after. These things happen. What matters is how the company responds. And getting you repaired camera in 2 weeks is a bit long but certainly not egregious in the meantime. If you have a shoot for which you absolutely NEED a bmcc might I suggest renting one? It's just two shoots and I suspect if you explain the situation calmly to BMD they'll do what they can to keep you happy (just as you do to keep your clients happy).

If they don't, then sell the camera and buy a 5DIII or something. The compromises involved in dealing with BMD may not be acceptable for you. That's fine. But dealing with any product is going to have compromises and that doesn't make BMD or Red or Canon or anyone liars and criminals. Every company mentioned makes some great products, each of which have their own set of downsides.


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When I think compromise. I think, no high fps, no in camera battery meters, no SSD meters etc etc etc, which I am more than happy to compromise on. but when my camera breaks in a week and people say what did you expect for that price it makes my head scratch.

When I say that they are committing a crime by stating the pocket camera shoots with RAW when it doesn't! I'm not seriously going to go phone the police, but what I'm saying is that false advertising like it or not is a crime, and what has been done there is advertising a product to do something it doesn't. how petty or minuscule you You make it, the fact is that it is a crime no less. If I sold my canon 60D on ebay saying it shoots 3k RAW would you say I was false advertising? The fact that 3k raw in the future might be possible on my canon 60D via whatever firmware might be available in the future doesn't make my statement any more truthful.

The broken camera was the last in a row of frustration and disappointments and a culmination of my own experience and reading other peoples experiences on this forum. As far as the image and the use of the camera (when it worked) I am over the moon, but I just want BMD to start taking things seriously rather than trying to rush a load of cameras out in 1 month when they haven't even built 1 that successfully does everything it should yet. And when they do announce new products they should either be ready to go with the cameras stockpiled and tested properly, like apple! or announce a date they can meet without rushing the cameras which results in them going out late and unfinished. I don't think that is too much to ask.

I apologise for my manor earlier, sometimes I can get a bit more heated than I realise when typing, and on later reflection think maybe I could have worded things better. I didn't mean to offend JB I think he is great at what he does and the fact that he does test these cameras and show us the footage etc is great and very nice of him to do so. However being so close to Blackmagic at every step of the production process also means that he can in no way be independent as he would have personal and professional ties in blackmagic and the cameras they make. So the fact that nothing negative about Blackmagics conduct is ever mentioned by JB is no surprise to me given the circumstances he is in.
I think that is a better way to word my first post!

The general tone is over the top in my opinion.
The personal attack on JB is unwarranted and hurts everyone. I joined a music industry forum over ten years ago. It was populated by many industry professionals using their real names (not screen names) and it was common to pose a question about a particular album or technique and have a Grammy winner answer in depth. Over the years of anonymous posters personally attacking them for this or that, the majority of professionals just drifted away. they don't need to pass on advice and experience, and if it becomes a deeply unpleasant experience they always drop out.
The end result is the wealth of knowledge and experience offered to the online community by long time professionals is lost to all of us.
Finally, I've been a music professional since 1980. In that time I've supported small makers, boutique companies etc. It has it's ups and downs. One thing I would never do is promise clients results based on products that aren't in my hands, and/or I've had experience testing myself. Often new products have bugs, don't quite work, or just don't suit my needs even if I thought they would.
If you are embarrassed to reveal you can't deliver what you've promised, that's entirely your fault, not BMD's. Sorry.

I do tire of these kinds of rants. Look, BMD is hardly perfect, but look what you get: a cinema and broadcast quality camera that puts you into the weight class of an Arri or RED at a DSLR price point. If you've got the money to pay for it, get yourself one of those $10,000+ cameras, you'll be happier with their increased capabilities, if not, then either get a DSLR with the accompanying IQ loss or get a BMD camera and deal with the various issues involved with that. It's that simple.

The general tone is over the top in my opinion.
The personal attack on JB is unwarranted and hurts everyone. I joined a music industry forum over ten years ago. It was populated by many industry professionals using their real names (not screen names) and it was common to pose a question about a particular album or technique and have a Grammy winner answer in depth. Over the years of anonymous posters personally attacking them for this or that, the majority of professionals just drifted away. they don't need to pass on advice and experience, and if it becomes a deeply unpleasant experience they always drop out.
The end result is the wealth of knowledge and experience offered to the online community by long time professionals is lost to all of us.
Finally, I've been a music professional since 1980. In that time I've supported small makers, boutique companies etc. It has it's ups and downs. One thing I would never do is promise clients results based on products that aren't in my hands, and/or I've had experience testing myself. Often new products have bugs, don't quite work, or just don't suit my needs even if I thought they would.
If you are embarrassed to reveal you can't deliver what you've promised, that's entirely your fault, not BMD's. Sorry.

Not embarrassed to tell my clients anything thank you, I've told them that the camera I had bought a week before had broken due to poor manufacturing so we can't use it on the shoot, how that is my fault I have no idea?
The only people here not delivering on promises is blackmagic

PS: I ordered my pocket camera in July and received it on Friday last week.
I'm very happy with the build quality and I'm very excited about the image quality potential at this price point.
The black sun issue was fixed quickly in a firmware update. The blooming sensor was an issue for a few unfortunate early adopters, and has been fixed already.
I'm seeing really nice films turn up on Vimeo using the pocket camera.
I just can't agree with any of this hysterical language about BMD lying and the product plagued with problems.

PS: I ordered my pocket camera in July and received it on Friday last week.
I'm very happy with the build quality and I'm very excited about the image quality potential at this price point.
The black sun issue was fixed quickly in a firmware update. The blooming sensor was an issue for a few unfortunate early adopters, and has been fixed already.
I'm seeing really nice films turn up on Vimeo using the pocket camera.
I just can't agree with any of this hysterical language about BMD lying and the product plagued with problems.

Well if you ordered in July and received it last Friday then that is proof right there that blackmagic are liars. They said quite specifically that orders would be dealt with on a first come first serve basis. So how is it that people who pre ordered within hours of the announcement a few months ago are put behind someone who ordered in July?

Point proved thanks!

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?
I also think you should stop yourself from using such inflammatory language such as 'liars'. It doesn't serve your argument well.

BMD! Why should we hold any faith in you as a respectable company, after a terrible track record, why do you still give out reduculously optimistic dates? Do you enjoy getting a bad reputation??

You do have an option! Go buy a Canon, Panasonic, Sony brand and stop your bitching!!! No one is twisting your arm to buy a Blackmagic Cinema Camera.

John Brawley wrote:

The very fact that I'm camera agnostic should tell you something.

Just because I don't voice concerns publicly doesn't mean I don't voice them.

Thanks for the sledging.

jb

Hi John,

As much as I hate to say it, some of these guys are not worth the effort. The intelligent among us appreciate everything you have contributed on this forum and your own site. The problem with this forum and another we all know is there are to many Nancy Boys types that unless you hold there hand or jump every time they spit the dummy they get upset. Probably, best just to ignore them totally!!

...Just before my second booking with this camera I tried turning it on but it wouldn't turn on, so I thought the battery had run out, left it on to charge over night. The next day nothing! The battery was dead! I needed to get it fixed for my shoot, people are paying me for filming with this camera...

Wow, that really sucks... very scary. Does the camera run on AC or external battery power, or is that dead too?

Shawn

Darkfable, most of us who have a BMCC or BMPCC don't seem to have had the reliability issues you've had. I really for bad for you. But for the rest of us, could you explain the situation. .....

I run my own production company with between 3-5 filming + vfx projects a month.
I pre ordered the BMCC back in Feb, I was told I was 4th in line and it would be delivered within 2-3 weeks
3 weeks later I phoned and they said I was 12th in line and had another 5 -10 weeks wait.

I have to say none of that, in my opinion, makes me feel your vitriolic response is justified.

I've had $1500 canon dslrs crap out and need to be repaired. Ditto $1000 panasonics and $1200 olympus's. I've also had $4000 panasonics crap out on me and need to be sent in for repair. I've even been on set when multi-hundred thousand dollar Sony hdcam cameras broke (it was a rental). It's unfortunate, but it happens.

Pro-level repair programs can usually return the camera within a week, but they cost plenty and you have to pay for fedex. Sometimes they'll give you a loaner. Not every company has a pro-level repair program. It would be great if BMD added one.

For a regular, in-warranty repair, 1-2 weeks is pretty good. It's still good to have a backup for this purpose. The delays in the supply chain make it hard to obtain a backup, so I bring my gh2 to set. In a few months I expect I'll buy another bmpcc and bmpc4k when they're more widely available.

I think all of us understand your frustrations, but you're tone is over the top. They are not liars, they are not criminals, they are a company unused to making cameras that's delivering a product with some incredible benefits and an amazing price...with some frustrating downsides. You can see from reading my previous posts that I have my own frustrations over these cameras and I'm not afraid to share them: the supply chain could be improved, features that should be there are missing, etc. But I recognize that the price and image quality are well worth the compromises and I hope that by adding my feedback on forums such as this in a civil tone that blackmagic will listen and respond or use my feedback to improve the product. In my experience they have listened. A little but more transparency would be nice of course, but that's always the case.

I've personally had far more frustrating experiences with Canon,...

If they don't, then sell the camera and buy a 5DIII or something. The compromises involved in dealing with BMD may not be acceptable for you. That's fine. But dealing with any product is going to have compromises and that doesn't make BMD or Red or Canon or anyone liars and criminals. Every company mentioned makes some great products, each of which have their own set of downsides.

+1

Build a bridge and get over it.

Excl. lenses...
basic kit with BMCC : $4,000
basic kit with ARRI Alexa : $80,000

Customer service and reliability is going to suffer in comparison, that's the rules of the game when you're not paying enough for it.

Well, to be fair (and I ignore the answer completely) it'd be curious to know if ARRI service and general reliability is 80000/4000=20 times better then BMD. A quick google search for "Arri Alexa issues" brings 85.000 hits Perhaps the Arri users have larger budgets, more options for backup and rely on renting anyway, so the Arri service department probably deals with renting companies and they don't tend to post on forums.

No, Arri owners and users are professionals with budgets and money, they find a solution now while waiting for the issues to be ironed out.

I wonder if any of those search queries are about the Alexa XTs that are shipping out dead, broken fans, etc.? No? Haven't heard about those? I have.

Are any of the search results about there only being some drastically low number like 40 Alexa XTs in the wild?


I don't speak for BMD, and I have gobs of faith in their new endeavors as camera manufacturers, as a disclaimer, so this is just my opinion: BMD's only real mistake was not spending time on forums reading the comments and complaints of their target market before deciding to get into it.

Although I'm sure they're still eager to push cost-to-image boundaries, I wouldn't be surprised if they never made another camera priced in this range for this very reason alone. Low price brings an entirely different kind of customer, one that a lot of camera manufactures just do NOT want right now.

That part isn't opinion, you go and talk to product manufacturers, ask why they aren't satisfying this low-budget market. They'll tell you all the very PC reasons first, then eventually start on customer expectations and the overall attitude. They just do NOT want it.

BMD's only real mistake was not spending time on forums reading the comments and complaints of their target market before deciding to get into it.

Well, perhaps they did and that's why their reps (or even the CEO) aren't arguing in each problematic thread that appears on their own forum. And speaking of forums, last time I checked, there is no such thing on apple dot com to complain about all the Imacs with "coffee stains" in the wild. Leica doesn't offer a forum on their frontpage to complain about faulty sensors and lcds and fuji, the great fuji, doesn't have a frontpage accessible forum for all the x100 owners that got SAB on their little jewels.

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?

You honestly think it is fair that someone who waited until July to pre-order has a camera while someone who ordered the first day of pre-orders does not? BMD needs to a figure a more equitable distribution system.

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?

You honestly think it is fair that someone who waited until July to pre-order has a camera while someone who ordered the first day of pre-orders does not? BMD needs to a figure a more equitable distribution system.

I am told that each region around the world gets a percentage split from the factory each build, which is fair.. The distributor here in oz told me they send out resellers orders chronologically and that they are seeing bigger batches each week.. They also told me they make sure any cameras that come in go out same day to resellers.

This would be true from what the local resellers I have spoken to tell me the same information (seeing bigger and more frequent coming in these days).

I ordered my first camera in May and I will have it this week which based on other local customers seems about right… My second unit was ordered in June, I hope to have it before December

Not embarrassed to tell my clients anything thank you, I've told them that the camera I had bought a week before had broken due to poor manufacturing so we can't use it on the shoot, how that is my fault I have no idea?
The only people here not delivering on promises is blackmagic

I'm fairly certain that I could never tell Proctor and Gamble, "Yeah sorry, that cam that I'd had in my hands for less than a week and your spot was riding on it isn't working".
They'd be like, "You were planning on shooting with something that you basically have no experience with?" And then I'd never hear from them again. I need clients with lower expectations...

When I think compromise. I think, no high fps, no in camera battery meters, no SSD meters etc etc etc, which I am more than happy to compromise on. but when my camera breaks in a week and people say what did you expect for that price it makes my head scratch.

When I say that they are committing a crime by stating the pocket camera shoots with RAW when it doesn't! I'm not seriously going to go phone the police, but what I'm saying is that false advertising like it or not is a crime, and what has been done there is advertising a product to do something it doesn't. how petty or minuscule you You make it, the fact is that it is a crime no less. If I sold my canon 60D on ebay saying it shoots 3k RAW would you say I was false advertising? The fact that 3k raw in the future might be possible on my canon 60D via whatever firmware might be available in the future doesn't make my statement any more truthful.

The broken camera was the last in a row of frustration and disappointments and a culmination of my own experience and reading other peoples experiences on this forum. As far as the image and the use of the camera (when it worked) I am over the moon, but I just want BMD to start taking things seriously rather than trying to rush a load of cameras out in 1 month when they haven't even built 1 that successfully does everything it should yet. And when they do announce new products they should either be ready to go with the cameras stockpiled and tested properly, like apple! or announce a date they can meet without rushing the cameras which results in them going out late and unfinished. I don't think that is too much to ask.

I apologise for my manor earlier, sometimes I can get a bit more heated than I realise when typing, and on later reflection think maybe I could have worded things better. I didn't mean to offend JB I think he is great at what he does and the fact that he does test these cameras and show us the footage etc is great and very nice of him to do so. However being so close to Blackmagic at every step of the production process also means that he can in no way be independent as he would have personal and professional ties in blackmagic and the cameras they make. So the fact that nothing negative about Blackmagics conduct is ever mentioned by JB is no surprise to me given the circumstances he is in.
I think that is a better way to word my first post!

+2

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?
I also think you should stop yourself from using such inflammatory language such as 'liars'. It doesn't serve your argument well.

Thats BS. Some of us are still waiting and ordered earlier than July! Seems the whole thing is nothing less than a farce.
New Magic need a rocket up their a*se.

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?

You honestly think it is fair that someone who waited until July to pre-order has a camera while someone who ordered the first day of pre-orders does not? BMD needs to a figure a more equitable distribution system.

+2

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?
I also think you should stop yourself from using such inflammatory language such as 'liars'. It doesn't serve your argument well.

Thats BS. Some of us are still waiting and ordered earlier than July! Seems the whole thing is nothing less than a farce.
New Magic need a rocket up their a*se.

Which reseller have your ordered from Gan Eden?

I think New Magic are doing a fine job, they seem helpful and answer questions about delivery to the best of their ability! I have dealt with them for technical support in the past and found them to be brilliant.

New Magic are shipping cameras to resellers the same day they arrive from the factory! What more do you expect???????

Thats BS. Some of us are still waiting and ordered earlier than July! Seems the whole thing is nothing less than a farce.
New Magic need a rocket up their a*se.

It's not 'BS'.
Answer the question. Do you believe customers in smaller markets like Oz should wait until more Americans have received cameras? Do you believe the biggest stores should be distributed to before the smaller stores get any?
I'm guessing they are sharing them around. And maybe customers who paid a bit more to buy from an authorized dealer in a smaller market are receiving cameras before those in bigger, more price competitive markets.

this place gets crazier by the day.

+ 2,568.

Re Pocket cam
No one should really care who gets a camera first The real problem is the way it was done. IE a release date set for July 31st was only to ship a very few cameras and to use people as beta testers So a BMD date is never a release date for 98% of us. When the beta testers have finished and in the Pocket camera found orbs then the camera is corrected and finally mass produced Although whether sufficient quantities are going to arrive no one knows if or when. Probably not. But what really is annoying is this was done after lessons were supposed to have been learned and protected by a wall of silence. Instead of being a buyer/seller relationship it has become more about their business plan than customer relations and little recognition is given to them or the distributers in where they fit in In the grand scheme of things. That would all be fine if they simply could do what they said they could but with no plan of what to do when it goes pear shaped or delivery dates that are really beta testing trials then those directly affected will get upset.

Re 4k
Anyone's guess.

Not embarrassed to tell my clients anything thank you, I've told them that the camera I had bought a week before had broken due to poor manufacturing so we can't use it on the shoot, how that is my fault I have no idea?
The only people here not delivering on promises is blackmagic

I'm fairly certain that I could never tell Proctor and Gamble, "Yeah sorry, that cam that I'd had in my hands for less than a week and your spot was riding on it isn't working".
They'd be like, "You were planning on shooting with something that you basically have no experience with?" And then I'd never hear from them again. I need clients with lower expectations...

If you can't figure out how to shoot on a BMCC in a week then maybe using cameras isn't your calling!

Because there was a much shorter queue in Australia?
Are you seriously expecting BMD to ship every camera they make to two outlets in America before they ship anything to another country?
I also think you should stop yourself from using such inflammatory language such as 'liars'. It doesn't serve your argument well.

Thats BS. Some of us are still waiting and ordered earlier than July! Seems the whole thing is nothing less than a farce.
New Magic need a rocket up their a*se.

Which reseller have your ordered from Gan Eden?

I think New Magic are doing a fine job, they seem helpful and answer questions about delivery to the best of their ability! I have dealt with them for technical support in the past and found them to be brilliant.

New Magic are shipping cameras to resellers the same day they arrive from the factory! What more do you expect???????

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It's not 'BS'.
Answer the question. Do you believe customers in smaller markets like Oz should wait until more Americans have received cameras? Do you believe the biggest stores should be distributed to before the smaller stores get any?
I'm guessing they are sharing them around. And maybe customers who paid a bit more to buy from an authorized dealer in a smaller market are receiving cameras before those in bigger, more price competitive markets.

ok

The problem with this forum and another we all know is there are to many Nancy Boys types that unless you hold there hand or jump every time they spit the dummy they get upset.

Since the low price attracts a lot of non professionals, we gonna see this more and more on the forums.
Most of them are nice folks, but some of them... well

The problem with this forum and another we all know is there are to many Nancy Boys types that unless you hold there hand or jump every time they spit the dummy they get upset.

Since the low price atracts a lot of non professionals, we gonna see this more and more on the forums.
Most of them are nice folks, but some of them... well

Wow somebody is judging who the "non-professionals" are. Talk about being full of your own scheiße....

Professionalism has bugger all to do with a persons perogative about a product they have invested in and doesn't live up to standard expectations.
You buy a brand new car, get home and there are issues with it. What are you going to do, say "nar no worries, she'll be right" or head right back to the dealer and demand the defect be fixed? Not hard is it?

Some of you "professionals" as you like to call your clique need a serious reality check.

There are many starting out in this industry so before writing them off Frank, give some grace and remember once upon a time, you too was at the bottom. What a mighty drop that could be.....

...and the tone gets even nicer, and you can speak German - I'm officially impressed.

A pro doesn't pre order (unless maybe it's a camera for his private amusement).
He waits till it is available, rents it and gives it a solid test ride before he walks into a shop an buys it (if he buys at all, most of the time it's rental anyway). Than he knows what the camera does - at the time with the given firmware - and what not, and if he can use it for a certain job.

A pro doesn't come to a shot without having a backup unit.
If a backup unit is not available, than he chooses a different camera for the job.

Those are the basic rules of the job since decades and for a good reason. You never take any chances, cause YOU are responsible for this, not BM, cause YOU are choosing the camera for the job. Your client doesn't care what is written on the box or the marketing is saying. He booked YOU, and YOU have to make sure everything is save in YOUR department.

What if your camera goes belly up during a job? This sort of sh..t can happen all the time with all the brands of cameras. What do you tell the client?

"Ahhh, sorry Sir.. look, we have no backup, since the camera is not really available now. Let's call it a day and we come back in a few months. No?"

If you think that even risking something like that is any pro behavior?

I'm not talking about talent or craft here - but a pro way to run a business.

...and the tone gets even nicer, and you can speak German - I'm officially impressed.

A pro doesn't pre order (unless maybe it's a camera for his private amusement).
He waits till it is available, rents it and gives it a solid test ride before he walks into a shop an buys it (if he buys at all, most of the time it's rental anyway). Than he knows what the camera does - at the time with the given firmware - and what not, and if he can use it for a certain job.

A pro doesn't come to a shot without having a backup unit.
If a backup unit is not available, than he chooses a different camera for the job.

Those are the basic rules of the job since decades and for a good reason. You never take any chances, cause YOU are responsible for this, not BM. Your client doesn't care what is written on the box or the marketing is saying. He booked YOU, and YOU have to make sure everything is save in YOUR department.

What if your camera goes belly up during a job? This sort of sh..t can happen all the time with all the brands of cameras. What do you tell the client?

"Ahhh, sorry Sir.. look, we have no backup, since the camera is not really available now. Let's call it a day and we come back in a few months. No?"

If you think that even risking something like that is any pro behavior?

Frank I think what you mean is a well financed pro shoot. Often a DP wont have any cameras Although maybe some lenses light meters etc. Because every shoot will have its own requirements. A pro shoot on the other hand is limited to those who can afford it For the vast majority the budget is never enough and usually by quite a huge margin. Of course it is the preferred choice to have a back up camera So lets say you hire the red You may not be able to afford a second red so the backup camera is likely to be inferior and maybe not work well with other grip. So the main camera is always the preferred choice and although things could go wrong and why you should be insured reshoots should also be built into the production schedule. Of course Arri or Red would get you a camera ASAP and more professional routes to go. The BMC does what a Pro camera can but without the backup. In this regard it would be best to get two BMC's as they are fairly cheap. I think the problem is at the moment is getting hold of one and then one that doesn't have issues and the lack of information.

Planet 5D puts 4K delays in perspective:
http://blog.planet5d.com/2013/09/4k-blackmagic-cinema-camera-delayed
"But the camera development schedule is another animal altogether. Witness RED’s release schedule for, well, just about everything they’ve put out. The RED ONE took longer than expected to come out, and Scarlet was largely considered vaporware for most of its development life until it was finally released after the EPIC around 2011, 2012, three to four years after the promised date of 2009. And the Dragon Processor took over a year to finally get upgrades going (and after some nifty kabuki theater at NAB showing the process)".

Planet 5D puts 4K delays in perspective:
http://blog.planet5d.com/2013/09/4k-blackmagic-cinema-camera-delayed
"But the camera development schedule is another animal altogether. Witness RED’s release schedule for, well, just about everything they’ve put out. The RED ONE took longer than expected to come out, and Scarlet was largely considered vaporware for most of its development life until it was finally released after the EPIC around 2011, 2012, three to four years after the promised date of 2009. And the Dragon Processor took over a year to finally get upgrades going (and after some nifty kabuki theater at NAB showing the process)".

The Scarlet was another public relations disaster What they should have done was just released a basic camera with a super 16mm lens for the enthusiast/semi pro but each problem led to another new development that got added then another new problem and on and on. In the end the target audience didn't get a look in and when it finally got released cost to much for those it was designed for.
Red is a different game though. They designed the camera inhouse including the sensor etc.

BMD use off the shelf parts in their own designs They have deliberately kept costs low by using the best for picture and everything else cheap Like the battery design and probably silly little things like the on/off switches. I think they could have added another £500 to the cost and used more robust materials and investing in quality control and then talking to customers which doesn't need to cost anything. Of course its easy for me to say that in hindsight. Overall I think BMD have done a fantastic job in getting this far.

A pro shoot on the other hand is limited to those who can afford it For the vast majority the budget is never enough and usually by quite a huge margin.

I know about low budgets, I had to to a lot of those shots over the years and it's not always fun.
But I always made it clear with the client before the shot, if something goes wrong, the cost "in front of the camera" may be much higher than renting a backup.
Models, actors, crew, props, location, light, catering, traveling and what not, is usually much more $$$ than renting an other body. Sometimes crew and actors are already booked for other jobs, so rescheduling is a PITA or even impossible.

I don't know about you, but I really don't want to be the guy, who the whole crew and cast is looking at, like - "Really dude? We have to stop here and pack up?" - just because the fancy new camera I brought in, doesn't do what it should, and I have no backup.

I more inclined to this view:

At this time it is announced a few comparable News - BMD knew it could not meet in July = but took customers away from competitors' products.

BMD behave really weird. I still waiting on my Pocket too. I am low budget buddy and hope that this will be my last experience with BMD company.

A pro shoot on the other hand is limited to those who can afford it For the vast majority the budget is never enough and usually by quite a huge margin.

I know about low budgets, I had to to a lot of those shots over the years and it's not always fun.
But I always made it clear with the client before the shot, if something goes wrong, the cost "in front of the camera" may be much higher than renting a backup.
Models, actors, crew, props, location, light, catering, traveling and what not, is usually much more $$$ than renting an other body. Sometimes crew and actors are already booked for other jobs, so rescheduling is a PITA or even impossible.

I don't know about you, but I really don't want to be the guy, who the whole crew and cast is looking at, like - "Really dude? We have to stop here and pack up?" - just because the fancy new camera I brought in, doesn't do what it should, and I have no backup.

Well the camera choice is usually not just down to the DP but the Director as well. In a situation like that no one is going to blame anyone The main priority is how do we get the problem solved as quickly as possible. There are many reasons that could also stop a shoot Not just a camera breakdown. Sometimes the loss of a bolt In fact sods law often rears its head and bypasses all those things you thought you had covered. Anyway I'm not disagreeing with the idea that you should have a backup camera the same as the main one. Just that its not always affordable and the backup camera may have to be someone's DSLR or a reshoot but often though a call to the hire shop can sort something out Maybe 2/4 hours later your up and running again. A film shoot is like that Unpredictable. Wannabe directors should know they need a vary thick skin and ability to problem solve on the fly.

...and the tone gets even nicer, and you can speak German - I'm officially impressed.

A pro doesn't pre order (unless maybe it's a camera for his private amusement).
He waits till it is available, rents it and gives it a solid test ride before he walks into a shop an buys it (if he buys at all, most of the time it's rental anyway). Than he knows what the camera does - at the time with the given firmware - and what not, and if he can use it for a certain job.

A pro doesn't come to a shot without having a backup unit.
If a backup unit is not available, than he chooses a different camera for the job.

Those are the basic rules of the job since decades and for a good reason. You never take any chances, cause YOU are responsible for this, not BM, cause YOU are choosing the camera for the job. Your client doesn't care what is written on the box or the marketing is saying. He booked YOU, and YOU have to make sure everything is save in YOUR department.

What if your camera goes belly up during a job? This sort of sh..t can happen all the time with all the brands of cameras. What do you tell the client?

"Ahhh, sorry Sir.. look, we have no backup, since the camera is not really available now. Let's call it a day and we come back in a few months. No?"

If you think that even risking something like that is any pro behavior?

I'm not talking about talent or craft here - but a pro way to run a business.

As far as I'm aware a professional is someone who does what they do as their profession, it has nothing to do with having million dollar budgets and being a snob!

I film music videos for a living and the clientele usually have around £1000 to spend on the whole video. So yes it is good to be "professional" and have 5 arris lying around as backup but we arn't all in that situation! I have always had 2 cameras incase one breaks, but am currently in the position of upgrading from dslr to BMCC, I still have my canon to fall back on, but it's quite a drop.

"Professionals don't pre order"
Well you pre ordered the pocket so I'm guessing you arn't a professional!

A
"Professionals don't pre order"
Well you pre ordered the pocket so I'm guessing you arn't a professional!

No, I don't own a Pocket, or have one on preorder.
The camera I shot "TheOne" with, is the private camera of the producer.

As far as I'm aware a professional is someone who does what they do as their profession.

I think the point that Frank was making is "Professional" means a way of working, an professional attitude. Taking responsibility for your own decisions/actions, instead of blaming some one else for your dilemma.

It is very funny to see people thinking that because it is cheaper than others they can have such a terrible (if any) customer support, lack of info, and misleading advertising..
Also it is very funny to hear a blogger tell others they are amateur!
See you at Cannes Mr. Storaro!!!

I think the point that Frank was making is "Professional" means a way of working, an professional attitude. Taking responsibility for your own decisions/actions, instead of blaming some one else for your dilemma.

+1
In most industries, including the film industry, poor behaviour like slander and abuse is considered unprofessional.
Enough!

I think the point that Frank was making is "Professional" means a way of working, an professional attitude. Taking responsibility for your own decisions/actions, instead of blaming some one else for your dilemma.

+1
In most industries, including the film industry, poor behaviour like slander and abuse is considered unprofessional.
Enough!

If I'm not mistaken, calling someone unprofessional is slander!

You never take any chances, cause YOU are responsible for this, not BM, cause YOU are choosing the camera for the job. Your client doesn't care what is written on the box or the marketing is saying. He booked YOU, and YOU have to make sure everything is save in YOUR department.

Perfectly stated.

You never take any chances, cause YOU are responsible for this, not BM, cause YOU are choosing the camera for the job. Your client doesn't care what is written on the box or the marketing is saying. He booked YOU, and YOU have to make sure everything is save in YOUR department.

Perfectly stated.

I have, I have a spare backup camera etc etc. The fact still remains that when you buy a camera you want it to work, and you expect some quality for £1500. People saying that buying a broken camera is my fault, as I chose to buy it, I'm not quite sure what world you live in.

So basically what everyone here seems to be saying is I can set up a shop, sell any electrical equipment that doesn't work! and when someone says hey this doesn't work I can say well it's your fault for buying it!!

It isn't a case of well you do get defects in some items now and again! Just taking a quick scan of the forum will show you just how many defective BMCC are being sold! I guess that is all my fault too!

You never take any chances, cause YOU are responsible for this, not BM, cause YOU are choosing the camera for the job. Your client doesn't care what is written on the box or the marketing is saying. He booked YOU, and YOU have to make sure everything is save in YOUR department.

Perfectly stated.

I have, I have a spare backup camera etc etc. The fact still remains that when you buy a camera you want it to work, and you expect some quality for £1500. People saying that buying a broken camera is my fault, as I chose to buy it, I'm not quite sure what world you live in.

So basically what everyone here seems to be saying is I can set up a shop, sell any electrical equipment that doesn't work! and when someone says hey this doesn't work I can say well it's your fault for buying it!!

It isn't a case of well you do get defects in some items now and again! Just taking a quick scan of the forum will show you just how many defective BMCC are being sold! I guess that is all my fault too!

Things break. Be prepared. Get it fixed and move on.

I think the points that Frank and Richard are making are equally true and kick in variously depending on where you sit. My point is that BM needs to attract both -- and many other kinds of pros, and amateurs -- into its tent and keep us there. Hollow promises and reckless oversights do not help in this.