Post at your own peril

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Scott Stacy

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Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 1:11 am

I've never witnessed bullying online until I joined this forum. It is amazing. I have yet to be the recipient of bullying, however, thank god. I just left a post, though, that was a feeding frenzy.

I used to think that this was a place where people can go for help or to discuss technical issues in an adult and respectful manner. A place where you can ask stupid questions and get proper guidance from those more knowledgable. Now, I realize it's predominently becoming a freaking wasp nest, akin to a nasty reality TV show. No wonder BMD folks stay away from here. If I owned BMD, I would shut the whole thing down and require that you have a background check and psych eval before being able to join.

I, however, have met 10 people on here that seem like reasonable folks and I am grateful for them.
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Tom

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 1:39 am

I am sorry you also feel this way. It seems over the past few months there is a touch more hostility on the forum. Many people making comments or replies without actually adding anything of value to the discussion.

When a company offers such amazing cameras at accessibly low prices, with new workflows required and new processes to learn - its expected that many people will have simple questions or might need a bit of help or might not be as experienced as others on here. It's such a shame to see many posts and threads ending up in endless arguments about opinions and not facts. Or for people to get personal just because someone disagrees with them or because they ask a simple question which might seem obvious to others.


I have no idea what the solution would be to this dilemma, except to hope that people try to think twice about what they post, and whether or not it needs to be said, and of course - whether or not it actually adds something important to the discussion. I am guilty of it sometimes, but I do try to spend more time trying to help people on here than just simply argue with them.
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Natal

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 1:45 am

The solution is to ignore posts you don't agree with or opinions you don't like.

It is not like some 800 pound gorilla (or kangaroo, as the case might be) has you pinned against a wall. It takes two to argue and fight.
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Tom

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 1:48 am

Natal wrote:The solution is to ignore posts you don't agree with or opinions you don't like.

It is not like some 800 pound gorilla (or kangaroo, as the case might be) has you pinned against a wall. It takes two to argue and fight.


Agreed!

*glances over at the gorilla....innocent smile *
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Scott Stacy

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 1:56 am

Natal wrote:The solution is to ignore posts you don't agree with or opinions you don't like.

It is not like some 800 pound gorilla (or kangaroo, as the case might be) has you pinned against a wall. It takes two to argue and fight.


Actually, I have deleted a couple of posts in order to bring a halt to gorilla/large kangaroo activity.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 2:46 am

You are a gentleman, Tom.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 3:35 am

It is often best, just to walk away, rather than get caught up in discussions gone "under". There is still a lot of good info. here. +1!
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 3:44 am

don't worry guys. The forum moderator is quick to sweep posts to the off-topic section and lock them when people start questioning BM buisness practices and ethics (or lack thereof).
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 4:04 am

Denny wrote:It is often best, just to walk away, rather than get caught up in discussions gone "under". There is still a lot of good info. here. +1!


Yes … indeed. However, just amazed at how nasty things have become and felt compelled to post.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 4:47 am

CineMusic wrote:
Denny wrote:It is often best, just to walk away, rather than get caught up in discussions gone "under". There is still a lot of good info. here. +1!


Yes … indeed. However, just amazed at how nasty things have become and felt compelled to post.


I'm quite new here and it was a surprise to me as well. However, I've been around cameras long enough to have seen the behavior before. The last time I saw this, and it was worse, was with the RED Scarlet project. That camera was 3 years late. But the parallels are striking.

It's nice to see there are some civil folks here though.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 5:27 am

I completely agree with you 100%.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 5:45 am

joechiazza wrote:I completely agree with you 100%.


Thems fightin' words!
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 8:10 am

Well, besides the situation Blackmagic customers might be in, it is something I witnessed on every forum: when it gets bigger it gets nasty. I haven't come across one forum which grew big and didn't attract "bad tempered members", but moving-image-related forums seem to suffer most.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 8:15 am

Yeah, it can get pretty wild sometimes, but as long as everybody acts professional and keeps it civil, I have nothing against a hefty discussion.

When they start to get personal though, I just ignore it and walk away.

gmf wrote:... but moving-image-related forums seem to suffer most.


Especially when it comes to Mac vs PC :mrgreen:
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 8:56 am

Frank Glencairn wrote:Especially when it comes to Mac vs PC :mrgreen:



Hahaha I got in one of those on the hv20 forums many years ago. It's absurd how precious some are.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote: ... I have nothing against a hefty discussion.



I love a good debate and I have "seen" you get into some interesting discussions, but you have always been civil and professional. As a psychologist by trade, and one who predominantly evaluates arrogant men, it is a pain in my bum to come to this forum and run into the same characters! I feel like I'm at WORK! :o
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 3:23 pm

This is the sacrifice you have if you want to have the freedom to say whatever you want. I believe everyone should be able to do so. Unfortunately, bullies are everywhere. So the best solution is to just ignore them, as other posters mentioned.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 3:32 pm

The thing is I've learned so much here. Most of the people here are very polite and giving. Paying it forward might be a way to say it. Not everyone is built for that but I'm always impressed to see so many people sharing their knowledge and making friends along the way.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 4:39 pm

Marshall Harrington wrote: ... I'm always impressed to see so many people sharing their knowledge and making friends along the way.


Yes, I have noticed that, too.

I do wonder if the folks from BMD keep their distance from here due to forum sniper attacks. This is unfortunate.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 4:40 pm

I always remind myself of the suffering that people have with bad health etc. or kids in Somalia starving but shooting machine guns. Reminds me of how fortunate I am. Fortunate to even have a BMCC or equivalent, being able to shoot pictures.

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 4:56 pm

CineMusic wrote:I've never witnessed bullying online until I joined this forum.

Lucky you! As much as i hate this behavior, as much am i used to it by now. I'm around quite a number of forums, running/moderating some of them myself, and i find that the anonymous rudeness is a wide spread phenomenon. There are, however, different kinds of forum: some are "horizontal", meaning they are run and used by equals (e.g. a bunch of car enthusiasts running their own "my corvette and i" forum); usually these are easy to maintain and share a civilized tone, probably because all participiants respect each others as equals. Other forums are "vertical", meaning they are run by "higher authorities" like companies and used by "commoners", eg. the company's customers; these forums usually suffer most from ill mannered trolls and tramps, probably because those users feel powerless against the mighty ones "up there" and want to make trouble... And of course the problems grow whith the number of users, especially when they come from all over the world, have very different social and professional status and experience, and often don't even speak the same native languages. Sadly it only takes a handfull of bad people to wreck it for hundreds of nice folks: as always it is much easier to destroy good things than to build them.

Usually the best thing to do is to just ignore the bullies; the same anonymity that empowers them also protects the rest of us, the don't have any power over you until you react to them, and they can't thrive and prosper when everybody just ignores them. Of course that's allways hard, not to react when provoked. So the next best thing instead of just ignoring the troll is to reply in friendly words and with arguments base on fact and knowledge. And then ignore him after the next flame.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 5:12 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:
CineMusic wrote:I've never witnessed bullying online until I joined this forum.


Usually the best thing to do is to just ignore the bullies; the same anonymity that empowers them also protects the rest of us, the don't have any power over you until you react to them, and they can't thrive and prosper when everybody just ignores them. Of course that's allways hard, not to react when provoked. So the next best thing instead of just ignoring the troll is to reply in friendly words and with arguments base on fact and knowledge. And then ignore him after the next flame.


Great advice. My brother runs a forum where a few opinionated people drive everyone crazy and ultimately away. Their mistake is they engage to protagonists.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 5:17 pm

Must be in bizarro world when threads about BMPCC are considered off topic and threads like this one aren't.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 5:23 pm

CineMusic wrote:I've never witnessed bullying online until I joined this forum. It is amazing. I have yet to be the recipient of bullying, however, thank god. I just left a post, though, that was a feeding frenzy.

I used to think that this was a place where people can go for help or to discuss technical issues in an adult and respectful manner. A place where you can ask stupid questions and get proper guidance from those more knowledgable. Now, I realize it's predominently becoming a freaking wasp nest, akin to a nasty reality TV show. No wonder BMD folks stay away from here. If I owned BMD, I would shut the whole thing down and require that you have a background check and psych eval before being able to join.

I, however, have met 10 people on here that seem like reasonable folks and I am grateful for them.


Go to BMCC user, freak in frankin weinies.but I must admit. that was getting so bad in the raw thread I was thinking of putting a link on red user to say, 'you think it is bad in this thread'.

It's unusual, but I think it has to do with the non communication policy, non delivery of features, product or updates, and people getting frustrated with repeated talking about it. A lot of this stuff to do with the pocket, or p50 on the 4k, should be simple and resolved long ago as yah or nah. A lot of firmware improvements should be here. But they are a young team and gaining experience.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 5:53 pm

I have to admit that I am sometimes a bad guy, but I do not want to spoil this forum.

So when stealing my mind something like:

"How sweet, so much understanding. Hold your hands and go for a walk in the park, you fa*ots! I want rather to hear release date of firmware with sound fixes!"

I prefer to go to vent rage on children and wife.

[Of course its a joke, I have no wife but the dog.] :lol:
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 7:13 pm

wayne. wrote:It's unusual, but I think it has to do with the non communication policy, non delivery of features, product or updates, and people getting frustrated with repeated talking about it. A lot of this stuff to do with the pocket, or p50 on the 4k, should be simple and resolved long ago as yah or nah. A lot of firmware improvements should be here. But they are a young team and gaining experience.


I agree ... certainly a lot of tension arises out of impulsive announcements, lack of clear communication, wishful thinking, broken promises or the perception of broken promises, and management challenges. What I find interesting is that the BMD community (the company and its users and potential users) is a "family" of sorts and some of the family members are becoming symptomatic due to the company’s distress. I share in that frustration and have bordered on firing flames at BMD. I hope this comment doesn't turn into a flame session. Frankly, I appreciate BMD's innovation; but, innovation comes with dysfunction and chaos. I just accept it now. Otherwise, I would be filming with an Epic or Scarlet rather than waiting for my 4K to arrive.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 7:31 pm

raadgie wrote:I want rather to hear release date of firmware with sound fixes!"



We all do ... it's a pain to not have any control over that, eh?

On another note, it was not my intention for this post to turn into singing Kumbayah around the campfire. I just found myself amazed (and at the same time not surprised) at how uncivil we can become when things don't go as expected or when people don't align themselves with certain ideologies or positions.

Anyway ... mhood is right. This is off topic. So, perhaps the BMD moderator will shut it down so we can get back to talking about moving pictures and how to make them.
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 7:34 pm

This doesn't have to be shut down as long as it remains civil. It's just been moved to the appropriate place for the conversation to continue.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 8:12 pm

Ha, Tony, tell us truth!!!! Seriously are you a human?!? :D
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 9:05 pm

Thanks!
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 9:22 pm

CineMusic:

Thanks for posting.

As Tony mentioned, happy to keep this thread open. But I also wanted to comment on your question about whether Blackmagic execs keep their distance from the forum. We do keep on top of what is being talked about here and try to jump in when we can and where we should. So please don't think that we distance ourselves.

People are passionate, especially about cameras. But we try to keep things open and free flowing, and not over manage or come down too hard (although I keep wanting to ask raadgie to change the angry bird icon. I swear the thing's eyes follow me around the room.) We want this to be a forum where people using our products get together in a civil conversation, and for the most part it works out really well.

All we ask is that people obey the rules that they agreed to when signing up (speaking of that, could you use your real name. You know I had to ask.)

Thanks.

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 11:00 pm

Terry Frechette wrote:CineMusic:

Thanks for posting.

As Tony mentioned, happy to keep this thread open. But I also wanted to comment on your question about whether Blackmagic execs keep their distance from the forum. We do keep on top of what is being talked about here and try to jump in when we can and where we should. So please don't think that we distance ourselves.

People are passionate, especially about cameras. But we try to keep things open and free flowing, and not over manage or come down too hard (although I keep wanting to ask raadgie to change the angry bird icon. I swear the thing's eyes follow me around the room.) We want this to be a forum where people using our products get together in a civil conversation, and for the most part it works out really well.

All we ask is that people obey the rules that they agreed to when signing up (speaking of that, could you use your real name. You know I had to ask.)

Thanks.

Terry


Thanks for responding, Terry.

My comment about BMD executives distancing themselves from the forums was not meant as an accusation, but rather an empathic statement. I believe that you folks pay close attention to the forums and discuss amongst yourselves the topics that are brought up and what's feasible and what's not.

I, however, have seen you and Tony try to make a helpful comment and get flamed. What I was getting at was imagining that one might become conditioned to not want to comment in order to avoid a blow torch being shoved in your face - metaphorically speaking, of course.

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion. I look at this forum every day, as I find it informative and there are some really smart and talented people on here willing to help.

S
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 06, 2013 11:04 pm

Scott Stacy wrote:...Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion. I look at this forum every day, as I find it informative and there are some really smart and talented people on here willing to help.

S

This is exactly why I enjoy this line of work. Seeing others come together to help each other. I'm here simply to try and make things run smoothly. Sometimes though, there are some speed bumps ;)
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostThu Nov 07, 2013 1:11 am

Tony Rivera wrote:Sometimes though, there are some speed bumps ;)


Careful of the bumps and thanks for your help.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostThu Nov 07, 2013 11:16 am

i actually agree with you. really good to know what you have saying here and it needs guts too. thanks for sharing the information.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostThu Nov 07, 2013 3:15 pm

Scott:

Thanks again for the note.

Terry
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostFri Nov 08, 2013 4:02 pm

The man with the green name is here, Tony (,the green us cool, sticks out).

I was going to comment before I saw you were here, that this is a classic PR downer BMD to ignore these people instead of doing what was suggested above, whatever can be done now and updates on likely minimum time frames for final fix, which us pretty no committal Another thing is to deliver as much as the camera can give in the update, if someone has the new 900MB/s SD card, they can potentially film p50 raw uncompressed, just mark it as experimental not guaranteed feature. What do you think Tony?


Thanks


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Re: Post at your own peril

PostMon Nov 11, 2013 5:02 pm

Hi Wayne,

As much as I'd like to be able to tell you "we're working on it", I'm not at all involved with the production of our products and/or the firmware updates. Everything I know about the products and their schedules I get at the same time as it's available to you folks.

As long as it's constructive and you aren't belittling other users, we do encourage people to post their suggestions/concerns here so our developers have an understanding of all your needs and how you're using our products.
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 13, 2013 4:36 pm

Hi All,

I'd like to see a "Beginners" forum where the likes of myself can feel that we can post basic ("stupid") questions without feeling intimidated. Of course, we would hope that one of the more experienced filmmakers/camera users might pop in to assist but so much can be learned at an elementary level without impinging on the domain of the experts.

It is both depressing and astonishing to read some of the more vitriolic posts but one can only hope that the minority soon tire and go elsewhere.

Thank for you for an informative forum!

T
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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 13, 2013 10:34 pm

TimSquires wrote:Hi All,

I'd like to see a "Beginners" forum where the likes of myself can feel that we can post basic ("stupid") questions without feeling intimidated.


Tim,

Some people on here are very nice, generous, and helpful. Some are just agitated. Others are uppity and probably shouldn't even be on here because they already know everything and are always right ;).

The process of hazing new people to this forum is not unlike other forums. You should visit the cinematography.com/steadicam forum if you want to feel thoroughly humiliated ;). They have a policy of no “beginners.” It's brutal. However, they do have a "student" section as a subgroup.

I think a beginner’s forum would be a nice thing to add, as I imagine that many new BMD customers are newbies to shooting with professional grade gear due to affordability. Although pro gear is more accessible now, the complexity of gear has gone up with raw footage accessibility along with the processing pipeline requirements, etc.

Perhaps, the pros who are nice would visit the beginner's forum as a way to help others. Or, non-pro obsessive-compulsive enthusiasts, like myself might be able to help a beginner or point them in the right direction.

What do you think, Terry and Tony? Are you still tuned into this post?
Scott Stacy, CSI
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 13, 2013 10:37 pm

There's been some talks about giving the forums a "facelift" of sorts. I'll add this to the list of things to run by the powers that be for approval but I make no promises. :geek:
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Scott Stacy

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostWed Nov 13, 2013 10:58 pm

Wow ... you are on it! Disclaimer noted. ;)
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostMon Nov 18, 2013 6:01 am

what a joke, this place was full of vitriol (word of the month) about two weeks after inception.

i vividly remember the "dont let the door hit you in the @$$" comments from members that STILL dont own any blackmagic gear when I canceled my pre order after 5-6 months of "delays" on the original camera.

now the soft newbs that can walk into a store and buy an iphone that shoots raw and gets regular updates dont like when the folks who have been waiting for BMD to make good on the announcement of "cool stuff" ask for an update...

flanges, orbs, battery life, AUDIO, "coming soon" announcements, pompous "beta testers",deadlines missed.. but pleeeeeeze, no vitriol.. and by gosh um pleeze use you real name, and we"ll tweet ya when we want to talk 2 ya...


right
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Radman

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostThu Dec 05, 2013 10:59 am

I must agree with the gist of this post, it is one thing coming to a forum for good advice and to solve a problem or to help constructivley with an issue politely and a touch of fustration now and again.

But really, don't people have a life. The really good guy's are disappearing fast be warned.
Only the chaff will remain.

The really busy guy's don't have time to sit twiddling their fingers on a forum.
Let us see your work, thats what counts, one can talk forever.

Radman. ( COE, FKT, TAV )

Ps. For those that disagree put your best shots forward or pudding you are making, let us see the genius!
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evilb66

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Re: Post at your own peril

PostSat Dec 07, 2013 1:16 am

I am reminded of A line in the simpsons
"Just remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people."
I think the biggest problem with this forum is the number of people who ask stupid questions, instead of reading the manual.
So knowledgable people just get so sick and tired of answering the same questions.
People need to either read the manual or use the search tool before they post.
Sooner or later everyone runs out of patience.

Ps. You whingers all need to drink a cup of cement and harden up a bit.
the first part of my real name is Mr B. if that's not enough for bmd, please cancel my registration to this site. then i will re-register with a new email and fake name anyway.

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