Request for Refund to Early Adopters

I would like to request that BMD offer a $1000 refund to those of us who paid a full $3000 for our cameras that STILL do not have working audio as promised. Since BMD decided to cut the price on the camera, the least they can do for us early adopters is to refund us the difference we paid for the camera to match the new price....

If you cannot give us a working, as promised, camera that captures "professional quality audio" as you stated, you owe us at least this. we can use the refund to buy an external recorder so this camera is usable by professionals on professional shoots.

Good on ya mate

I guess that BMCC is able to capture "professional quality audio", with proper external pre-amps (correct me if I'm wrong). So, logically, the claim of false advertising is false. The fact they they didn't tell you that you will need external pre-amps is different story.

Personally I've make quadruple the money back that I paid for the bmcc. Love it. Can't wait for an update though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess that BMCC is able to capture "professional quality audio", with proper external pre-amps (correct me if I'm wrong). So, logically, the claim of false advertising is false. The fact they they didn't tell you that you will need external pre-amps is different story.

ummm .... are you an attorney? lol

because that is what I would expect to hear from BMD's legal counsel.

I guess that BMCC is able to capture "professional quality audio", with proper external pre-amps (correct me if I'm wrong). So, logically, the claim of false advertising is false. The fact they they didn't tell you that you will need external pre-amps is different story.

ummm .... are you an attorney? lol

because that is what I would expect to hear from BMD's legal counsel.

Actually, I am LOL. And a doctor as well. Maybe you should check your blood pressure

I would like to request that BMD offer a $1000 refund to those of us who paid a full $3000 for our cameras that STILL do not have working audio as promised. Since BMD decided to cut the price on the camera (probably because they have realized they will NEVER get good audio on this camera), the least they can do for us early adopters is to refund us the difference we paid for the camera to match the new price....

I mean afterall, aren't we still running the same firmware that was last sent to us when the camera was $3K?

If you cannot give us a working, as promised, camera that captures "professional quality audio" as you stated, you owe us at least this. we can use the refund to buy an external recorder so this camera is usable by professionals on professional shoots.

If BMD were a us company, there would be proper pressure by us to force delivery on sales literature promises. This reeks of FALSE ADVERTISING, but apparently the aussies don't hold people accountable.

Not sure I agree with the tone of the post, but I have to admit I would love this (or to be sent a pocket camera). Not holding my breath though...

I think a refund is too much to ask, but a discount on another purchase would be nice (4K or Pocket).

I think a refund is too much to ask, but a discount on another purchase would be nice (4K or Pocket).

Yeah if they gave us a pocket camera at cost or the 4k for $3k, that would be cool.

So, this is what it's come to?

If you are talking BMD offering the refund/discount....I would wager it NEVER comes to that. Odds are as good that getting something like that from BMD is as likely as getting a firmware update for the bmcc.

--

I guess that BMCC is able to capture "professional quality audio", with proper external pre-amps (correct me if I'm wrong). So, logically, the claim of false advertising is false. The fact they they didn't tell you that you will need external pre-amps is different story.

ummm .... are you an attorney? lol

because that is what I would expect to hear from BMD's legal counsel.

Actually, I am LOL. And a doctor as well. Maybe you should check your blood pressure

I should check my blood pressure...thank you. I will go to the doctor today, and hope he is not using any equipment made by BMD. If his Blood pressure cuff has thier logo, I will know it is incapable of having meters and indicators on it. And then I would expect him to argue...."it's a cinema cuff" to shut me up.

I think a refund is too much to ask, but a discount on another purchase would be nice (4K or Pocket).

+1

Early supporters who sat through thick and thin only to be handed a late, dysfunctional and expensive product and have now been abandoned (no firmware updates even though new cameras get updates) could really do with some relief.

I guess that BMCC is able to capture "professional quality audio", with proper external pre-amps (correct me if I'm wrong). So, logically, the claim of false advertising is false. The fact they they didn't tell you that you will need external pre-amps is different story.

Yes, the BMCC does a smashing job of recording audio if you give it a good line-level signal. Microphones, of course, don't give you a line-level signal, so it should come as absolutely no surprise that you're going to need to use a preamp before you feed the signal to the BMCC.

Here's an example using acoustic guitar; I fed two microphones into an external preamp, and gave the BMCC a line-level signal. All the audio you hear was recorded on the BMCC - no external recorder.

http://kubrickwannabe.com/JF-55.mp4

(I would suggest you download this to your desktop, rather than trying to stream it through a browser; some browsers can't keep up, and garble the audio.)

If a scene is dark, you add lighting or use a faster lens. If your mic levels are too low, use a preamp! As they say, it's not rocket science. There's not a damn thing wrong with the audio I've recorded using the BMCC; you just need to take responsibility for giving it a good signal. An inexpensive preamp will do that easily, and give you metering as well.

Great idea!

Im gonna put together my LED TV, my cel phone and my watch 'cause they dropped its prices 8 months after I bought them. Gonna get some money back, after all. We all should do the same with all our things that got cheapper.

Oh, come on! If you camera is defective, send it back and get a good one. They are obligated to do that; Price drops is always happening everywhere. Grow up and get over it. I am too waiting for the firmware updates promised like better debayering and think its an absurd it didnt come out yet after all this time, but my camera, at least mine unit, works very well despite that.

I paid full price for my camera, I ordered it 2 weeks after it was announced at NAB 2012 and it arrived 11 months later. A few weeks after it arrived the price was dropped.

I do not feel I am owed a refund or money back or anything like that.

I got the camera I paid for. Subjective terms aside, it functions exactly as described in the technical specifications.

Stop complaining and get out there and use it, or return it to the company who sold it to you (not BMD, they sold it to their resellers) - this constant pointless "noise" on the forum is not helpful to anyone and is completely unproductive.

This is a support forum, threads like these do not offer support or help. They simply serve to let people vent or argue. Please do that elsewhere.

I'll second what Tom said

Hey look, I don't want to argue over what's owed and what's not. Some people simply aren't bothered by the price drop and some of us are. I'd just like to point out there is recent precedent for companies refunding early adopters after a quick price drop, so it's not such a crazy, wacky, off-the-wall idea. A quick google search came up with:

http://gizmodo.com/5448687/google-cuts- ... y-adopters

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2007/09/ea ... rom-apple/

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/08/hp-ref ... -adopters/

http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/17/hulu-s ... -adopters/

I don't expect BMD to issue refunds or give credit towards another device, but it's not really all that outlandish an idea.

Another fact: I was in IT for more than a decade before getting to live the dream and capture images for a living, and I can tell you that a 30% price drop less than 6 months after a product is shipping in volume (after heavy delays) is NOT common in the tech world.

While I think some may want to tone down the way they're presenting their argument, I think it's a bit out there to suggest no one should be upset given the facts I've just presented. It's especially weird to make that argument when you consider the idea that it's likely that none of those refunds would have happened if none of their customers complained.

Complaining is how you let a company know you'd like them to do things differently. Kudos to BMD for giving us this forum for us to communicate with them directly.

I still have hope....

With all due respect Tom....grown ups honor their promises and keep thier word. As a 45 year old man who has made a living in a small market as a DP/Op, I honor my words and promises. I knew the situation before I bought, and expected, or perhaps naively hoped that within a few months at most BMD would get the bugs like audio worked out via firmware.

Did that happen. No, but they did devalue my camera 2 months after I recieved it, which was 7 months after my pre-order. And for the record, 1 day after I received it they announced the 4K at NAB. I contacted my reseller who said it was a "special order" and they would not take it back. period. I did try...thinking I would hold out for the 4k.

And again, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the complaints. This pressure needs to happen. They need to know what we need and want if they truly care about making a solid camera product. Asking for a break for those of us who have tied up thousands in good faith and are not getting what we need is not unreasonable.

BTW.....to be clear....I am asking BMD to SUPPORT us early adopters.....which is exactly why we post on this forum.....to ask for support.

See now I'd say it's a bit CHILDISH to talk about being grown ups as if we aren't all that, including BMD. This thread is growing more and more hostile. Tom merely advised taking these complaints elsewhere because they are not helpful, and I'd agree. You can contact BMD directly if you have major complaints, but by putting them on here it seems inappropriate IMHO.


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I have contacted them. Have had an open ticket on the rec709 color issue for over 6 months now. They gave me one response....and that was the same as what they tell us on the forum. "yeah, we know it is a problem". NO awnser as to whether it can be fixed, or if they intend to even do it.

I did not intend to argue with any of you with this thread....but to ask BMD to offer us a refund since they are still UNABLE to deliver on their promises for this camera. Why people decided to jump my **** over it is beyond me. When a client hires me for footage, they demand the best I can give them for the budget, and would be unhappy if I told them I would deliver something that I later did not, but still took their money.

This forum is labeled cinematography, and by BMD definition is "The place for questions about shooting with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera." Addressing issues with the camera not working properly seems to be appropriate here. Perhaps those of us who are not interested in lying down and waiting for what we paid for quietly should have our own forum. But until that time, if it is camera related this is the place it will be posted. I accused NO ONE of being childish here, and do not appreciate being accosted by those of you who become annoyed hearing unsatisfied purchasers demand more from the company who took their money.

I'm sorry, but sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a member of this forum. I can't decide if some of the comments are fake from competitor forums or if camera owners really whine this much.

By the way, include your name and a link to your website or portfolio. I thought that was the rule here?

Anyone else wanting scopes and meters, get a MacBook Pro and tether a thunderbolt cable for Ultrascopes. That's what it's there for. And get an external recorder for audio.

Shane, you must be going for a record on trying to start the most number of locked threads possible.

[CaptainHook]

By the way, include your name and a link to your website or portfolio. I thought that was the rule here?

To be fair, he's not trying to hide himself - his username is an email address containing his full name:

http://www.shanepetersdp.com/
https://vimeo.com/user1699220

This forum is so childish. You have two options:
A) Believe that they are working on an update, stop complaining and wait around like everyone else
or
B) Realize that they won't make an update and that the camera will never fully cater to your needs, cut you losses, and sell the camera for something that better suits you.

A third option is you don't post in thread that people are raising serious issues in.

[s][s][s][s][s][s][s][s][s][s][s][s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s][/s]

Well, so far I only have 1 thread locked (my "open letter to Grant Petty" in which I asked the company president to let us know what is actually going on with the bmcc firmware updates). Of course, when Tony gets back from his weekend that might change.

@nick....your options are logical, but without more information that BMD will not accurately provide, how can I choose? They have said "we are working on it" for a year now. At what point do you stop believing and choose option B? I would be fine selling my hardly used cinema camera, but because of the BMD price cut, I wll automatically take a 1/3rd price cut (actually more as this camera is now used). Do I wait so my money is not tossed down the hole and I get what I paid for, or do I just cut my losses and move on. IF that is what BMD recommends then I would be seriously concerned were I any of you owners out there.

This is not a childish post. I am asking for some relief for those of us who bought a camera on advertised specs for our work and either have it perform as advertised OR cut us a break with some cash back (the free pocket idea is not bad....then I would get a camera with working audio).

As I said to JB in another thread, I don't have a fight with you guys. I don't want to have a fight with BMD. I would love to be a cheerleader for them to everyone in my pro community, but I cannot. My peers know the rumors...one post house I shoot for likes to ask me "how's that blackmagic working out for you" as a joke, since they know the industry buzz about its issues. I can hang in there and wait, and my skin is tough enough to take comments like yours making digs at my maturity.

In the meantime, I will leave this camera on the shelf and continue working with my other camera products unless I need 2.5k raw with no audio. then it is fine.

Shane, at least did you earned some money with it untill now? Because... You may complain here, but meanwhile you could make your investment give you some money back (if not already doing that). I'm earning some money. I do record audio separately, but I do that since back when I used a Canon 500D and a Zoom H1 and never had any problems with that. Its just a quick extra step in post if you do everything right. BTW, the H1 is a fantastic inexpensive solution to record audio. It only lacks pro inputs, but can do the work if you manage it correctly. Now Im using the Tascam DR100 MK II. And, for a certain point of view, even if the camera had proper audio inputs, Its nicer to have the option to customize your audio needs, camera aside. From what I see, audio will always be better with separated/dedicated solutions. Try to see from that perspective. They do that in cinema since early days of adding sound to movies.

I do think the camera can be perfected by firmware update and its taking too long for that. Probably because the 4K model (which is not an excuse). But we already have a nice tool to make money.

If you're not already doing that, try to make some money with your BMCC and Im sure you will feel much less harmed.

This thread is just so wrong. Imagine if the OT became law Stock markets would have to close traders could no longer compete IE I want a refund someone down the road is selling it cheaper.

Basically the rule of law and capitalism is that the seller asks a price and you decide whether you want to pay that price or not. In this case you are within your rights to ask for a refund on the price difference and it would probably come across as a bit cheeky But to self indignantly demand by implying wrong doing is just laughable. Not only that but a vocal minority can seem to be representing a majority when clearly it isn't. This makes customers of BM look bad and maybe even pushes BM away from wanting to play fair if its customers don't.

Personally if I were a mod Id just delete this thread as being no more than a troll.

[Terry Frechette]

Good morning:

I have moved this to Off Topic.

Please be polite to one another. We really hate to lock topics. But there has to be a respectful conversation. I have already gotten a number of complaints about this thread.

We are working on updates to the Blackmagic Cinema Cameras and we will definitely let this forum know when they are ready.

Terry

I have only owned the Pocket Camera and absolutely love it. Though it desperately needs audio meters in my opinion. I felt compelled to add to this thread since I see it the issue pop up so many times. So this is the humble opinion of this unknown forum poster who never owned a BMCC:

1. I did not like the tone of the original post. But then…
2. I TOTALLY understand and can relate to what the OP is saying. Given the facts however, I think his tone is understandable. What I find incomprehensible is this account (and other similar ones):

I paid full price for my camera, I ordered it 2 weeks after it was announced at NAB 2012 and it arrived 11 months later. A few weeks after it arrived the price was dropped.

I do not feel I am owed a refund or money back or anything like that.

The posters who feel this way are either better human beings than me and most people, extremely rich, or both. I’m a reasonable person, but let that statement sink in for a bit:

I paid full price for my camera, I ordered it and it arrived 11 months later. A few weeks after it arrived the price was dropped (from $3,000 to $2,000).

Are you kidding me? I can’t think of a parallel universe where this would be a normal, acceptable, business practice. Never mind the supposed bugs and missing promised features. Don’t know if those complaints are legit, but it sounds like they probably are.

Comparisons were made above to how everything in the tech world gets cheaper. But please, someone enlighten us with examples of another tech company that has done something similar where a customer can say something along the lines of: I paid full price for my camera, I ordered it and it arrived 11 months later. A few weeks after it arrived the price was dropped (from $3,000 to $2,000).

Incredible.

The only advantage to being and early adopter for a product is that you get a head start on the “hype conscious” consumers that wait for the reviews and the “price conscious” consumers that wait for the price drops; which very rarely amount to a 1/3 price drop a few months after availability. The BMCC depreciated much quicker than a car or a personal computer for Christ’s sake!!! In any case early adoption in general is an extremely risky proposition because it does you no good to get a “head start” on a product that turns out to be a dud, as is frequently the case. (Unless you are one of those rich types who is just concerned mainly with impressing your friends with the latest tech, regardless of it is good tech or not).

The BMCC early adopters did not get the single benefit of early adopters (head start) and were hit with the usual negatives, but augmented (obscene depreciation and bugs not sorted out).

As the happy owner of the Pocket camera I’m cheering for Black Magic Design and I badly want them to succeed. But please BMD, these BMCC early adopters should be compensated in some fashion. You need to make this right. You don’t even need to compensate the huge amount of “happy” BMCC owners, just the ones who rightfully feel deceived.

Thank you for that. I appreciate your understanding regarding this issue,as well as your reasonable approach to the subject. My point in starting this thread was to get a public consensus rolling for those of us who are not content with empty promises from the company we gave our money to. Since calling BMD and asking for this over the phone would get a quick rejection, I felt the best way to bring up the subject was a forum posting.

Again, I cannot see why this, like my "Open Letter to Grant Perry" issue was swept to off topic. BMD clearly states that the cinematography forum is for postings regarding shooting with their camera products. This post is clearly about their camera product. Can I truly expect other owners to find my post in "off topic" (which is for anything NOT BMD product related, by BMD definition)?

Terry, feel free to delete this post if you like. you might as well, since I doubt anyone will read it in the OT forum. And truly, it does not matter, as the only BMD response to this thread has been your "we are working on it" answer which has been way overplayed for months now by BMD. Although there have been several postings of support for this idea, the amount of negative, personal attacks on my request are dissapointing. I get accused of being a troll by someone who does not agree with my posting, even though it does not affect their opinion of BMD....(who is actually doing the trolling in this case?)

It is apparent to me that my mistake was trusting BMD to honor their commitment to making a solid camera product for their customers. Maybe someday you will get there, but even knowing the risks of being an early adopter, I assumed too much of BMD to think that now, 1 year after purchase, it would be running to your own specs. If my demands for proper customer service are too uncomfortable for you, then perhaps your company should consider not advertising features you cannot back up with functioning products. And for those of you out there who do not like what you read....stop trolling these forums and let us who invested in BMD products and need communication with BMD use them.