RED RAVEN Thoughts

What are peoples thoughts on the new Red Raven? Is this a direct assault on BM?

How can it be a direct assault?
Body plus the minimum required accessories comes out to about $9000.

I think it's a general attempt at trying to secure the under 10k market by charging literally just under 10k like most camera companies are tying to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How can it be a direct assault?
Body plus the minimum required accessories comes out to about $9000.

well I've just spent $7580.25 on the Ursa mini 4.6k with required accessories so it's not a lot in it! I would have spent a lot more if I went to the recommended stores for some of the parts rather than Ebay

I think it is just RED's answer to competitive pricing. Manufactures need to do this to stay in the competitive market and/or reach a new target market. Smart move in my book. I hope more start to challenge BMD's market...that way BMD will just introduce more products at even more affordable prices to the consumer

Also, why is this in the cinematography section? This should be in the off topic. This cinematography forum is already flooded with irrelevant topics to using the Blackmagic cameras. It makes it really hard for folks looking for information relevant to shooting with their BMD cams. Sorry for the rant, but there are different forum locations for good reason.

I think it is just RED's answer to competitive pricing. Manufactures need to do this to stay in the competitive market and/or reach a new target market. Smart move in my book. I hope more start to challenge BMD's market...that way BMD will just introduce more products at even more affordable prices to the consumer

Also, why is this in the cinematography section? This should be in the off topic. This cinematography forum is already flooded with irrelevant topics to using the Blackmagic cameras. It makes it really hard for folks looking for information relevant to shooting with their BMD cams. Sorry for the rant, but there are different forum locations for good reason.

I assumed camera choice had something to do with cinematography. my bad. I wanted to discuss what people thought of the new cameras and whether the new Red is a viable competitor to the 4.6k

How can it be a direct assault?
Body plus the minimum required accessories comes out to about $9000.

well I've just spent $7580.25 on the Ursa mini 4.6k with required accessories so it's not a lot in it! I would have spent a lot more if I went to the recommended stores for some of the parts rather than Ebay

Could you make a list of what you got? (sorry for beeing ot)

it says its gonna be "13:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 x 2160) at 120 fps" i can't wait to see what the image quality would look like.

Honestly, it looks like a great camera but I would say it is DEFINATELY NOT a direct competitor for the Ursa Mini.

Realistically, for a decent rig and some media cards and batteries, you'll spend closer to $10-11K.

Plus you have ergonomics on top of that.

It's all choice. Different tools for different jobs.

I really do question the 16.5 stops. We all know that RED can be a little loose with their ratings, so we'll see what that looks like.

That said, it DOES look like a really good camera.

10K buys one card and no batteries....
4K 120 fps at 13:1 will be barely good enough for HD delivery...
this is a no brainer for red owners, second body if you have all the other stuff but for anyone else?
supposed to be shipping in spring 2016, which means summer, the only good thing about that is knowing red, things might change considerably by then....specs, price,....everything....hey they might scrap the whole project (they have done it before)...
by the time this ships Sony and BM will probably have announced other cameras with better specs for a lot less....
this really makes me even more excited about BM 4.6 samples!
16.5 stops is not even close....independent test have shown about 13.5....and the 800 iso is to be taken with a huge grain of salt as well....dragon 6K at 3:1 has "texture" but is definitely fine for 4K delivery.....so the smaller 4K crop will not be a low light sensor by any means.....
BM has nothing to worry about...

Specs are specs. Shooting 13:1 seems like a travesty, but have any of you actually seen REDraw dragon shot at this level before? It's not going to be perfect, but at least it's available to you. Also, it does do 2K at 240.

I think (on paper) it's a great camera. I also think it does compete with BM generally. Let's be honest, if you're shopping for a $7500 system, you can probably afford a $9500 one. If you're moving into the cinematic camera world, choosing which path to go, red makes more sense now. Between scarlet, epic and weapon, they had three tiers, but the scarlet is still too much $$$ for entry level shooters. This is the sub $10K market. With how powerful brand loyalty is these days, getting new shooters into your brand is important. It gives them an upgrade path. Canon has the Rebel. Porsche has the Cayman. Same principal.

New users get climatized to RED colors, workflow, etc. Maybe they even invest in a red rocket card. The ecosystem, as some would call it. They are going to naturally progress up the ladder. Red has made that progression easy (if not expensive) as all the components are interchangeable. From the memory cards, to the cages, to the power options. Can't say the same about BM's camera line up. (or Sony)

And that's where BM is limited (today). Maybe you started in the BM world with the pocket camera. Moving up to Ursa or Ursa Mini means lens change. That's not ideal and expensive. Media is all different, so are the accessories. Similar if you are going from BMCC to Ursa. You have to start over and build a new "package" every time.

The URSA isn't a direct challenge for the Alexa, Epic, F65, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera, but it's not competing at that level. So, once you're up to URSA, where do you go from there?

To RED, or maybe Sony.

I think that should be BM's next camera. A high end capable camera. Best frame rate, best iso, best DR...whatever. It should do something better than everyone else. I like the Ursa Mini ergonomics. The top plate design. They should keep that overall design in future cameras and offer more accessories that fit that body.

The funniest thing is BM will be announcing their next camera by the time red actually ships the Raven! So no one has to make a decision today

Specs are specs. Shooting 13:1 seems like a travesty, but have any of you actually seen REDraw dragon shot at this level before? It's not going to be perfect, but at least it's available to you. Also, it does do 2K at 240.

I think (on paper) it's a great camera. I also think it does compete with BM generally. Let's be honest, if you're shopping for a $7500 system, you can probably afford a $9500 one. If you're moving into the cinematic camera world, choosing which path to go, red makes more sense now. Between scarlet, epic and weapon, they had three tiers, but the scarlet is still too much $$$ for entry level shooters. This is the sub $10K market. With how powerful brand loyalty is these days, getting new shooters into your brand is important. It gives them an upgrade path. Canon has the Rebel. Porsche has the Cayman. Same principal.

New users get climatized to RED colors, workflow, etc. Maybe they even invest in a red rocket card. The ecosystem, as some would call it. They are going to naturally progress up the ladder. Red has made that progression easy (if not expensive) as all the components are interchangeable. From the memory cards, to the cages, to the power options. Can't say the same about BM's camera line up. (or Sony)

And that's where BM is limited (today). Maybe you started in the BM world with the pocket camera. Moving up to Ursa or Ursa Mini means lens change. That's not ideal and expensive. Media is all different, so are the accessories. Similar if you are going from BMCC to Ursa. You have to start over and build a new "package" every time.

The URSA isn't a direct challenge for the Alexa, Epic, F65, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera, but it's not competing at that level. So, once you're up to URSA, where do you go from there?

To RED, or maybe Sony.

I think that should be BM's next camera. A high end capable camera. Best frame rate, best iso, best DR...whatever. It should do something better than everyone else. I like the Ursa Mini ergonomics. The top plate design. They should keep that overall design in future cameras and offer more accessories that fit that body.

The funniest thing is BM will be announcing their next camera by the time red actually ships the Raven! So no one has to make a decision today

some very good points

How can it be a direct assault?
Body plus the minimum required accessories comes out to about $9000.

well I've just spent $7580.25 on the Ursa mini 4.6k with required accessories so it's not a lot in it! I would have spent a lot more if I went to the recommended stores for some of the parts rather than Ebay

You're right. I was thinking about the bmcc and the bmpcc.

Sadly I had a bad experience last week with my ursa and a big client, some ProRes contained only pink noise. I'm in love with BM cameras, I own many of them, but they are not ready for the field. Again, on the previous project one CFast (Hfs+) was corrupted and not mountable. I had to use data rescue. It's okay, even first RED were unreliable, but I don't find myself comfortable working with BM cameras. For now. Last time my battery died on the epic the card wasn't corrupted and even if the r3d file wasn't closed and missing the last seconds of the shot, was readable. I made a deposit for the raven because it has what ursa doesn't.

Ursa, and I knew before buying it, it's too big and heavy, but still I wanted 4k, 120fps, so I was okay with the deal. After using it for 3 months I'm starting to see its cons. Not the obvious ones (size), but the ones that I dind't expect.

- FPN is terrible even with that BIG cooling system. RED has black shading.
- changing aperture with the >| and |< buttons is completely wrong. I mean the button position. Red sidehandle is a joy to use, and afaik URSA mini handle only has auto exposure button, correct me if I'm wrong!
- 3:1 raw only is not enough. Having only 3 minutes on a 128gb card at 120fps is crazy. Compressed redcode is lighter, i can go 10:1 without no problem (hey, i shoot hd tv and music vids, not hollywood movies! who needs uncompressed raw on here?)
- black sun is worse than my original BMCC. Ok, I can upgrade the sensor, but it's 2k$ and I'm getting closer to the raven kit price
- i can't always use v-lock batteries. With the ronin the whole rig gets too heavy to use it all day, even with an ursa mini. Okay, redvolts batteries are pricey but are extremely light! I can have a few vlock for handheld and redvolts for gimbals.
- redcode is quicker, i can directly edit raw on fcpx or premiere in real time with 1/4 - 1/8 debayer, with BM raw i first always need to make proxies via da vinci and it takes time

Yes, red has LOTS of cons: pricey, many don't like its color science, and so on. But it's not a war, buy what you need. Or, better, buy both (i'm getting the mini 4,6k too as soon as it goes under 4k€)

Sadly I had a bad experience last week with my ursa and a big client, some ProRes contained only pink noise.

Fabio, what firmware are you running on the URSA? I thought this pink noise issue had been solved..

Fabio, what firmware are you running on the URSA? I thought this pink noise issue had been solved..

firmware 2.6, ursa 4k sensor v2, prores lt, video color space, 1080, project 50fps, sensor fps match, lexar cfast 64gb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk