Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

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Wayne Steven

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Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 2:45 pm

I've thought of kick starting a small camera phone before. I have some amazing ideas to make it really nice to use professionally. But in reality, it's a major pain to do products But we are here and BM could do it instead?

Major reasons:

- Others charge too much for a cinema phone, or normal phone. Even with 3D camera setup (for post computational photography effects like DOF and bokeh), it could be done for less than $300AU. A four camera array is possible.

- most others undeliver for the price. Phones should be able to do something like prores and ProRes Raw (similar codec). I've got some really nice data card storage ideas, not microSD cards. The sensors often are weedy, but there are good ones.

- As the original fullhd pocket is now gone, a phone could take it's place for fullhd which people still enjoy filming. Fullhd or 2.5k like the original cinema camera, need be the only high quality mode available (using cheaper chipset for the compression). 4k would still be at some reasonable quality.

- a vertical colour filter foveon design (Sigma and partners), Sony, or Canon (if either will sell you theirs) could be used to sell the colour rendering as a marketing feature.

- The phone controls can be upgraded for shooting.

- BM can supply new professional recording software, or upgrade the mundane android camera software.

- OEM/chipset manufactures can supply a cheap phone platform that can be modified by BM, and BM can offer the phone package, or just camera improvements, to phone companies to license as a special feature phone. This means others bare most of the costs, with BM recieving a license fee.

- Did I mention 3.5-4 inch. Very pocketable, but very usable with the features I'm thinking of, including unique phone features as well as camera features. It's not meant to have the highest resolution or video resolution, but the best at a modest usable resolution.

- lens mount ( :) ).

- for $699, more reasonable multipoint 3D could be possible. A fraction of the competition. A multipoint lens onto single chip sensor is possible, able to be replaced by a mounted lens. This means that if the multipoint is 2k-2.5k, the single mount could be 4k-5k.

I miss using my old 3.5 inch phone to film years ago. It proved very handy and versatile to have around. We go bigger and bigger phones, which I admit, have their advantages, but that little thing just felt good. I've devoted time over the decades to figuring out controls on handheld devices, to give near max desirable feel, so I think it can be done, and I've looked at going smaller. Just as a camera, something a fraction of the size again, is possible. At that point, instead of a micro, you can literally just stick them around a scene.

Something to contemplate.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 3:20 pm

With the major phone manufacturers falling over each other to add more “K” and higher fps and bigger screens to their phones, there’s always room for an alternative to reinvent the current concept of a mobile phone. If BMD are planning to do it, I should think they’ve already trademarked Pocket Phone. Except this time they really mean a phone that fits anyone’s pants pocket or Pocket Purse... better trademark that too!

It’s been said before phones like the iPhone aren’t really being purchased and used as phones much of the time. They are Pocket computers and Pocket consoles and Pocket cameras that happen to provide phone service but nearly all the costs of the device are incurred in support of computing, surfing, gaming, and AV recording capabilities. Apps are addictive.

To go back to the drawing board and offer a superior AV device that made phone calls and email and skipped all the other stuff might work. There are huge markets that just don’t want to spend $999 and up on a phone.

When the original 3.5” iPhone was released, I was using a Blackberry that was ubiquitous in business. It did a decent job at mail but was awful at taking on computing tasks. It had an awful screen. But you probably could type on it with your eyes closed. BlackBerry + Blackmagic = ? PocketMagic?


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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 3:28 pm

Seems RED does not sell a lot of those either.. BMD is all about MASS production.. So i wont count on it..

And if you want a real camera phone.. You can always buy that RED phone.. :lol:
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 3:37 pm

The potential market for Wayne’s $300 PocketPhone is huge. Getting access to the market is the difficult part for some regions.


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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 3:24 am

Wayne Steven wrote:I've though of kick starting a small camera phone before. I have some amazing ideas to make it really nice to use professionally. But in reality, it's a major pain to do products But we are here and BM could do it instead?


If your ideas are good, why not do it yourself? BMD is a post production/camera maker. Look at RED: they've been developing the hydrogen, and it was just delayed after preselling a $1k phone without (to my knowledge) having anything more than a few interesting concepts (holographic display, but they only show it to a few people; available add-on units that do...things....). I hope they do well, but they also touted "3K for $3K" a few years ago.

If you have the great concept, why not develop it and reap the benefits yourself? If it's a good product and not vaporware, then investors will get behind it.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 4:36 am

Because I have other projects, and it is way big of a commitment in time and money.

I said a number of things to reduce the cost;

Using somebody's chipset and phone reference design is way cheaper than doing it yourself, but you still have to shore up production costs.

Using an OEM (original equipment manufacturer, who may manufacture for a number of brands) design the OEM can handle manufacture, and may help out producing a feature design they can sell (see more next paragraph). But unless somebody else sells it, you still have to do certification, distribution network (big big expenses) and marketing.

If you partner with a name brand you can license the camera section/software, they take on most of the costs (phone are very difficult due to certification) and are already set up to get into lots of countries, with decades of experience, and paid hundreds of millions setuoing distribution networks in those country. Way cheaper. But I don't think many brands would be interested in a Stevie Phone, but in a BM, yes. Now it might cost millions doing it this cheap way. But the finale step is, BM merely sells a camera reference design (software and maybe sensor and optics, maybe even though be day an ASIC, and some physical control and storage patents) they are paid to implement on whatever phone that comes up. Now, at very low ongoing costs, they year by year offer this service to brands who pay for it. The company sell there phone features as designed by BM with the BM logo, like they currently sell optics sections designed by Leica, with the Leica logo. You see what I mean. Hioefully, year by year, you have models you can choose from.

So, after all that it is hundreds of tones of work and costs. A team effort and X millions, just to put together a reference. The cheaper option again, Is to just do the software and customise for phones with best suitability (and numbers) and whoever wants to pack in the software. I been if you can avoid all patents, it might cost a big whack of money to get a pro app out there.

What is really needed though, is plugin codecs and recording driver for android. That's the simplest way to start. An experienced person might spend hundreds of hours setting up a pro codec. An inexperienced person 6 months or more. However I you will have nearly 0 camera apps that can do a really good job professionally. There are ways and means, but phones virtually have to physically be modified with controls and storage options.

Yeah, unless a team does most of the work. I would rather BM did it
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 4:45 am

rick.lang wrote:The potential market for Wayne’s $300 PocketPhone is huge. Getting access to the market is the difficult part for some regions.

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Yes, along as you can sell through a brand into many outlets, over 50% of the people buying don't even have to know what BM is, but the marketing will tell them and the retail staff. A good lot of people will know what it is from the press and video camera sites and magazines and come to buy it. This likely means many times the sales compared to trying to sell a BM manufactured unit from a website.

When the Pocket goes 8k, the phones goes 4k. So, it is a step down always from the pocket.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 4:59 am

Xtreemtec. I am taking about an mass production strategy in the millions. Also, of course Red is not selling much, they are coming in at very high price for the phone without modules. For $699 American, they could have sold it with 4 camera 3D. Selling something professionally relevant for $300-$500, is a lot more desirable (except the screen, which you only need a cheap one person 3D setup to film with, using technology related to the expired Australian barrier pattents, but applied to both landscape and portrait axis).
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 5:12 am

Michaeldhead. I should point out. My personal strategy was to give up on making a phone, but instead to make an add-on camera, by passing all the high phone related costs. A cheaper stratergy which could result run from Amazon/website etc. I'm keeping an eye out for suitable chip for this. I know two bunches who can design it (we are speaking big money here, the last 'cheap' quote was not cheap, and they failed to offer me ownership on my custom design) including ambarella. So, keeping an eye out for a low energy circuit will have to do. There is a lot more to it, pretty exciting. But if somebody like BM, delivers it already in the phone, even better.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Sep 02, 2018 5:15 am

I've been interested in developing a pro camera module 1-2mm thick with lens by a centremeter or more squared for a few years. It's highly ambitious, so is left gathering dust.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostMon Sep 03, 2018 7:12 pm

May be much easier to put phone chip inside of original BMPCC. No problems with production, 12bit cinema raw. It's possible to redesing front (phone like flat) cover. BM have already positive experience to sell bmpcc at $500. The only problem to be an external 12V battery.

(ps Not for me personally. I all the time carry rucksack with a lot of much heavier and less from that point of view humanistic things like, let say, my Linhof 6x9 or other photographic equipment)))
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 1:08 am

Yes, many things could be done Valery.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 1:46 am

It’s a lot more complex than just throwing in a chip. You need to incorporate a touch screen and an entirely different OS ( Android, presumably) WHILE incorporating the Blackmagic OS for the camera while incorporating space for a SIM card, antenna, presumably Bluetooth... it’s a lot.
Last edited by michaeldhead on Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 10:56 am

Actually, not bad idea to have compact phone like pocket device with 13 stops 2k ProRess HQ 422 based on original bmpcc sensor quality at reasonable price. Plus good upscale software imulating film grain (as do the point light head in silver gelatine photographic printing, that you can upscale, let say, 35mm image to any dimentions with filmic beautiful art image quality.)
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:02 pm

michaeldhead wrote:It’s a lot more complex than just throwing in a chip. You need to incorporate a touch screen and an entirely different OS ( Android, presumably) WHILE incorporating the Blackmagic OS for the camera while incorporating space for a SIM card, antenna, presumably Bluetooth... it’s a lot.


Getting into phones for the first time carries with it a pretty steep learning curve that lead to a lot of delays; there are a lot of certifications that a manufacturer needs to get with a phone that aren't necessary with cameras, as well as different needs as far as design and such.

For all we know, BMD is developing a phone right now... but BMD would probably prefer to make a $600 premium phone than a $1600 premium phone and make Apple look lame for charging so much more for its premium phones that aren't as nice as BMD's phones. ;)
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 4:17 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Getting into phones for the first time carries with it a pretty steep learning curve that lead to a lot of delays; there are a lot of certifications that a manufacturer needs to get with a phone that aren't necessary with cameras, as well as different needs as far as design and such.

For all we know, BMD is developing a phone right now... but BMD would probably prefer to make a $600 premium phone than a $1600 premium phone and make Apple look lame for charging so much more for its premium phones that aren't as nice as BMD's phones. ;)


I agree, and that's my point - someone else said "slap a chip in the original Pocket and make it a phone", and there's a lot more engineering that goes into a phone than that.

You're right - BMD could be developing a phone and we won't know it for years. I kind of doubt it, but it's possible.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pm

I was going to point out you could just put a ready made existing phone platform into a pocket, but why bother. I'm eager for something better and more compact than that.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 6:39 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:I was going to point out you could just put a ready made existing phone platform into a pocket, but why bother. I'm eager for something better and more compact than that.


Where is the antenna on the body of the original Pocket camera?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 4:23 am

It doesn't have one of the body, phones ussually have it on the he body.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 4:26 am

Anyway, I was looking around, and I think such a phone could make images like this, maybe with some little sacrifices:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ra/gallery
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 4:54 am

Should BM makes RAW 2K Phone in 2.40 cinemascope ratio i would buy one instantly
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 1:40 pm

I'm interested in 2.56k sensor in particular. The 2.4 ratio can be cropped out. But yeah, sounds good Darko.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 11:11 am

Well, looking up recording raw ProRes on cell phones, I found some interesting stuff.

Apparently there is Linux and Java code out there. FFmbc and FFmpeg, and a Java version of FFmpeg called JCodec.

This is probably all a bit useless, even if you can get the code up under the Linux sub libraries, or Java, it really needs OpenGL or GPU coding to get performance out of it. But, there is possibility of doing something, maybe even 720p.

It's stunning nobody has done such a codec. Being away from Apple, you might be able to do custom 12 bit or more 4:2:2 at higher datarate.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 4:36 pm

:roll:
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 5:16 pm

Yeah, who wouldn't want 720p Prores in your phone...in 2018....
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 5:20 pm

Got to start somewhere, you guys can do the GPU DSP and pathways programming conversions and storage drivers to get at least fullhd, and maybe 4k (like those iPhones have been able to do fur years recording photos over 4k at 24fps).
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostThu Sep 13, 2018 9:20 am

I would like to discuss somethings along this lines.

I don't have much of a passion for a full sized camera anymore. I've long been looking at doing things smaller than a decked out micro (10+ years). However a very old design proposal of mine cones to mind, parasitic computing. This is where you have a processing engine that plugs into a port and runs the computer device for services. It occured to me you could have a usb, even microSD, card with processing chip on one side and a miniature sub storage card on the other side.

In compression, most of the circuitry on your processor is wasted, as it uses inefficient steps or is hardly/not used at all. So, custom circuitry can maximise compression per watt of power (the word watt is optimal). Even gpu's should use custom circuits for common compression rather than a GPU. Ironically though, it means sending raw from the camera through the phone to the device, which might be too much for any reasonable resolution, otherwise you could plug one of these into a multitude of phones. The other issue is, of course, the power draw which the port may not take. Even to do a sacrificial 8k h26x consumer compression required a over 1watt ambarella chip. These schemes will lossy cull an image to reduce the processing and data size. It comes down to the right compression routine, that will be low enough power, but won't fill the storage sub card too quickly. So, could we even do FullHD at around 70MB/s. So, a good phone on usb3c might do it. But let's flip everything around. Let's use USB or wifi to stream to a battery powered streaming device. Now, as long as we can get a slack android phone (it's incredible the realtime issues with these) to dump that raw fast enough we can get somewhere.

Now, something more tangible. I wanted to develop a low profile HDMI recorder which was like a stub sticking out of a cameras HDMI port (with passthrough etc now). The sort of thing you get with stubby USB sticks. I know some people who do industry leading low energy processing, apart from ambarella. I was going to do a codec first, but that's on hold. A practical product that BM might support. I have a number of camera platform proposals and an alternative design to what I just discussed aswell. I can tell you, cameras as we know them are wrapping up, the acceptable performance metrics are maxing out, the only way to go, apart from different, is smaller.

What do you guys think. Frankly, I wouldn't mind working with somebody (company wise?) towards a pro video phone, and these other devices.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostThu Sep 13, 2018 9:25 am

BTW, I've read that light is working with Nokia on a multicamera phone, and seen apparently actual pictures (though they also look like that rotational lens array configuration, which is confusing). Likely, it's not going to be cheap, and I don't know if it will have professional performance.

https://www.devicespecifications.com/en/news/f86cc1a
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 2:50 pm

Ok, BM has announced their new Raw format, and that it is the fastest (in some way). Somebody mentioned it is opensource. I think that might be good for a phone?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 2:55 pm

A long time ago, I planned on doing tricks more nasty than Raw bayer. To get reasonable quality 8k in less than 50mbit/sec compression. I do not like raw bayer too much.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostFri Oct 05, 2018 3:39 pm

Look at this:
https://m.gsmarena.com/lenovo_z5_pro_te ... -33535.php

The lens look similar. Maybe this is true 3D.

Check out the massive light investment:

https://m.gsmarena.com/softbank_and_lei ... -32323.php

Here is more on the upcoming Nokia announcements:

https://m.gsmarena.com/rumor_has_it_hmd ... -33550.php
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostFri Oct 05, 2018 4:54 pm

I'm really not seeing the reason for a cinema phone at all. When would you opt to shoot with it over a proper camera?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostFri Oct 05, 2018 9:54 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:I'm really not seeing the reason for a cinema phone at all. When would you opt to shoot with it over a proper camera?


Clickbait?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Oct 06, 2018 10:13 am

Mark, don't worry about continuing negativity.

Things are very simple, as through the ages, the master's can use it to film whatever. It's in your pocket to check things, or take candid moments of surrounding or personal events which happen. Photographers, reporters, builders, surveyors, real-estate agents, architects and other professionals can use it to get better basic footage. It merely offers a better camera. It's something you carry when you are not carrying the pocket or mini and something you have when you are.

Put it in a rig and it's of similar results to a pro camera. Using the right multi lens you can outdo most compact and stills cameras in your pocket. Depending on how far you go with the specs. Yes, an image enthusiasts companion.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Oct 06, 2018 3:03 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:Clickbait?


My post? What am I baiting people into clicking?

Wayne Steven wrote:Put it in a rig and it's of similar results to a pro camera. Using the right multi lens you can outdo most compact and stills cameras in your pocket. Depending on how far you go with the specs. Yes, an image enthusiasts companion.


It just feels like I would never be walking along and all of a sudden have to shoot a film. It feels like builders, surveyors, architects, etc. wouldn't have any benefit in a cinema phone but instead maybe computational still photography using something like coded apertures. That would allow them to take photos without any distortion while grabbing depth data.

As for rigging, it seems like any scenario where you might take with you all the necessary stuff to rig the camera, you might take a proper camera that you can't get text messages and calls on while filming.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSat Oct 06, 2018 11:13 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Put it in a rig and it's of similar results to a pro camera. Using the right multi lens you can outdo most compact and stills cameras in your pocket. Depending on how far you go with the specs. Yes, an image enthusiasts companion.


It just feels like I would never be walking along and all of a sudden have to shoot a film. It feels like builders, surveyors, architects, etc. wouldn't have any benefit in a cinema phone but instead maybe computational still photography using something like coded apertures. That would allow them to take photos without any distortion while grabbing depth data.

As for rigging, it seems like any scenario where you might take with you all the necessary stuff to rig the camera, you might take a proper camera that you can't get text messages and calls on while filming.


You happen upon a news worthy subject. A pro video quality computational estimation, or real-estate footage. It's about sales to the other 99% to keep the price down. You don't have to take any rig, but if you wanted too, either way, it's about getting the quality of the original pocket in your pocket. Just view it as a smaller pocket with better video then your normal phone. I put cinema camera in the title, which is true, but also pro video.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Oct 07, 2018 6:51 am

There is an 8k Sony small sensor out, which interested in looking at. I prefer a layered colour filter 2.6k, but the 8k could do nice 2k-2.6k colour, or 4k multipoint 3D.

There are like three product lines I'm interested in, but haven't decided which to pick.

Rick, what do you think?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Oct 07, 2018 2:37 pm

Wayne, I have not looked into that Sony 8K sensor, but you may be right.

Just a general observation; I think the 8K and 16K sensors are opening up another viewer experience that will find it’s best purposes. Perhaps first 8K for sports since that’s what Japan’s NHK is counting on for the 2020 Olympics. If 8K and 16K become pervasive, rather than limited to a few special applications, I think we older folks are going to feel very nostalgic for the "good old days" of film and 2K video which was imprecise and imperfect in a good way as those characteristics aid the “suspension of disbelief” at the core of all art. I really don’t understand the trend for magazines stills to be shot on 50 or 100 megapixel still cameras that surely must exceed human perception on the printed page of a real subject, not a test pattern. I feel the same unease about moving video of all kinds to 16K, other than perhaps used for billboard displays or scientific purposes, for entertainment purposes.

At some point, art is going to lose out to reality. Fortunately i won’t be here when that happens. I pass the torch to the current generation to continue to shoot with imperfect glass with light captured on imperfect sensors which in the end are your considered choices in the pursuit to produce art rather than reproduce reality.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Oct 07, 2018 3:30 pm

Well, you'll be happy to know I'm looking at minimum professionalism rather than maximal, so imperfection will still be there. However, if you shoot 2k/2.6k it's going be pretty good. I figure if I don't ask for too much, somebody will allow us to buy a sensor worth buying. :). I think the multilayered vertical colour filtered sensor are a bit of marketing. You get 2k or whatever and 4:4:4 with nice colour. For some people, that's all they need. Now, 8k stills, 2k 4:4:4 video should be doable on a smaller chipset with bayer. Maybe even 4k. I've been looking into doing a surround multipoint sensor pixel setup like Google does with the pixel last year, for many years, but tricky. It's easier to do a 9 pixel setup, but 4, the geometry of physics gets in the way. But now 4 lens camera modules are coming out, like the Lenovo z5 pro and Apple's one (shown years ago, probably when they bought the company which did it). Those can be used. I should say, they have similar lens, so may be matching lenses with matching resolution.

Anyway, there is an article down at Red Shark news on 14k as being what the experts are saying, to better preserve the lens image. There was a number of factors in working the image in higher resolution before down scaling it into deliverable resolution.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Oct 07, 2018 4:09 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:Clickbait?


My post? What am I baiting people into clicking?



You asked a question. I answered it with a theory. What made you think I was referring to your post a clickbait?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostSun Oct 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Lol! That mystery is solved. :)

The 8k is more click bait. Or market testing to build up interest and attract a team. Unfortunately, the market actually getting serious and potentially releasing something reasonable in the Nokia and z5 Pro gets in the road of doing a competing product. But on BM's part they canicebse to do a camera section for a phone, like the lens companies do.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Oct 17, 2018 2:18 pm

Re-edit: I found this old open edit page and thought it might be an unpublished post a d published it rather than risk loosing it. So, I don't know if this edit is an older or newest version. My apologies.

This interview with Panasonic, goes into their reasons for not doing a sequel Lumic CM1 phone. This is what I am saying, and why partnership of a company like BM to do a phone is a good idea, like Huawei did with Leica. It would be harder for a company like Panasonic to do this with an established consumer electronics competitor. It's too much for a very large corporation like Panasonic. The thing BM has to offer, is a brand and technical camera know how to go along with it to do a top rating design that puts them alongside the best camera phones, but with extra.

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/disc ... ent_254611

Any plans to make an updated version of the next generation Panasonic Lumix CM1?

Mr. Uematsu: Leider nicht (from German "Unfortunately not"), No. One of the reasons is a lack of resources, and another reason it's difficult to sell. For smart mobile phones, the good relationship with wireless network carriers is very very important, but even we can sell the phone. we need to establish the certain quantity of phones to be selected by telecommunications service provider. However, to make such a single device would require too much effort for Panasonic. And once we quit our mobile phone business in your country we have to re-established this situation again. It makes much difficult. And also so many regulations for telecommunicating devices. It costs a lot and also would require too many efforts just for one type of phone.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Oct 17, 2018 2:34 pm

To me it sounds like what you really want is software. Why if all you say is true about hardware could you not develop an app then with professional codecs to run on existing hardware? I doubt anyone would make a "cinema camera" like you're getting at outright because the margins just don't seem to be there. An app would have a lot less overhead and better margins while removing the headache of manufacturing. Unless of course you need your own chipset design for this to work and then you really haven't even begun to figure this out.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Oct 17, 2018 3:26 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:The thing BM has to offer, is a brand and technical camera know how to go along with it to do a top rating design that puts them alongside the best camera phones, but with extra.


I guess you haven't heard of the Varicam, eh? Panasonic knows cameras... and was already a big name in the camera world long before Black Magic bought DaVinci, let alone announced a camera of its own.

Panasonic doesn't need BMD to make a phone, and in reality BMD wouldn't have anything useful to offer to Panasonic in doing that anyway, since BMD has no experience in phones either.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Oct 17, 2018 3:55 pm

True J. But the market is a bit tied up. The trading of contractual terms doesn't seem to advocate true competition.

Many different phones have different hardware and camera hardware. The android os and camera support has been limited, and I don't think camera 2.0 is crash hot either. The problem for camera software app makers, is you have to do custom programming for all the different versions. Where as software and hardware support for iPhones was straight forward, it killed the android camera apps feature level. So, I advocated doing software just for a few best camera models, but people weren't interested. However, going sideways (when obstructed go through, move or go around) I have thought you could do it for a few chipsets and sensor combinations that might be shared by a few handful of phones. Whatever I said above I forget, but there are three avenues, the software, the partnership, the smart lens, or drop it and do a camera.

The trick is to sell a common model where the normal sales support your sales numbers which reduces the costs while the camera features sells extra to the camera crowd. Say you get 900k instead of 300k+ sales because it is a nicer model with marketable rep. Say $10 profit (this is all 1:22am figurative). That's $6 million extra profit. Now, that's a cheap version. The cheap flagship, suiting somebody like Acatel, or a number of others.

Giving everything happening with me, I'm only interested in a team.

I got to point out, a reason I haven't bought a flagship camera phone is because I haven't considered any of them good enough. Seriously. Been waiting for a good dual+ camera model, but even now, they are often just gimmickry without matching camera setups to do good computational photography. The Hydrogen isn't too bad, but it does not have enough cameras or resolution recording simultaneously. I know they plan a multi camera module, and it probably is going be good, but why didn't they just make the phone like that to start with? Why don't companies do descent camera functions in phone, or descent multipoint? The camera phone industry is anemic.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Oct 17, 2018 4:01 pm

Rakesh, it's got nothing to do with each other. It was pointed out it was too much for Panasonic to do a good camera phone for the same reasons it would be too much for BM, even though Pansonic is a bigger company. It's not in the realm to suggest Panasonic and BM partner up.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostWed Oct 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Rakesh, it's got nothing to do with each other. It was pointed out it was too much for Panasonic to do a good camera phone for the same reasons it would be too much for BM, even though Pansonic is a bigger company. It's not in the realm to suggest Panasonic and BM partner up.


And exactly how much experience does BMD have making phones?

What precisely would BMD be bringing to the table that Panasonic doesn't already have in house?

The problem for Panasonic is due to margins. The options for phones are to make premium devices that cost a lot, or crazy inexpensive ones that sell like hamburgers. The former requires a fairly high end device or it won't be taken seriously enough to justify the cost premium, the latter ends up being generic, and therefore hard to differentiate from the rest of the generic devices out there.

And if you're going for a premium phone, you have to compete with the already established Pixel and iPhone lines, which are pretty nice phones.

And then after designing the device, there's still a long process of carrier and FCC certifications and contract negotiations WITH the carriers, and so on.

What part of that does BMD have any experience with?
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostThu Oct 18, 2018 12:45 pm

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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostThu Oct 18, 2018 1:27 pm

I suggest reading what is being said before jumping on people, again. It's all been explained multiple times and doesn't need to be repeated.

Nevertheless, for anybody dropping in thinking there is a case. I have already described how Panasonic thinks it would be too big for them, the same reasons I have previously given, the same reasons that Rakesh has mentioned, plus any others. I have outlined only BM's experience and branding in camera technology, and never any in phones. I have not implied that BM and Panasonic should work together. Any rational person that reads the thread can, again, see how I don't need to be embarrassed.
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Re: Why BM should make a cinema camera (provideo) phone.

PostThu Oct 18, 2018 3:39 pm

Wayne Steven wrote: I have not implied that BM and Panasonic should work together. Any rational person that reads the thread can, again, see how I don't need to be embarrassed.


Sure about that?

This interview with Panasonic, goes into their reasons for not doing a sequel Lumic CM1 phone. This is what I am saying, and why partnership of a company like BM to do a phone is a good idea, like Huawei did with Leica.
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