Creative with the truth.

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MishaEngel

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Creative with the truth.

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 7:56 pm

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mico p

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 1:27 am

Love it. Paybacks a b--ch isn't it RED. I never trusted RED or JaRED. Jinnimag got sued by RED and RED lost, now Jinnimag is out for blood. Good on ya.
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Stephen Fitzgerald

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 3:27 am

OH NO...No they didn’t. If this is all true RED has been ripping people off for years. Even falsely claiming the size is larger.
Red forums are going to love this hahaha.
They have a lot to answer for. AYE...
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Australian Image

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 4:42 am

Given how RED sued Blackmagic over CDNG, why is this not surprising?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 5:05 am

But, is this report accurate? You need to get a RedMag and take it apart to confirm this guys claim... :!:
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 11:26 am

Denny Smith wrote:But, is this report accurate? You need to get a RedMag and take it apart to confirm this guys claim... :!:
Cheers


Which someone on reduser has done:
BTW I went ahead and opened mine since it looked pretty safe from the video and since for a while I have wanted to inspect/clean it since I work around the Ocean a lot and was concerned that salt or sand might get into the connector. Mine shows all of the same as on the video except it has the MU 05 firmware that he mentions. (I got mine around may of 2017.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread ... ost1860195
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 12:58 pm

RED is going to get burned hardcore for this!
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 2:28 pm

Dan Sherman wrote:RED is going to get burned hardcore for this!


If you read a bit over their forum, you will find that the fanboys do find a lot of excuses...
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Dan Sherman wrote:RED is going to get burned hardcore for this!


If you read a bit over their forum, you will find that the fanboys do find a lot of excuses...



It's absolutely comical, some peoples justifications show they know absolutely nothing about the underlying technology.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Thanks Robert, I do not read RedUser forum. So, they are paying $$$ for the nice fancy case and USA labor for hand assembly and QC testing of each SSD to ensure it meets their standards. :roll:
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 3:49 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Thanks Robert, I do not read RedUser forum. So, they are paying $$$ for the nice fancy case and USA labor for hand assembly and QC testing of each SSD to ensure it meets their standards. :roll:
Cheers


For what they are charging, perhaps I should quit my job and go work at RED. I mean they are charging one hell of a premium to assemble 7 parts with 4 screws, and run the finished assembly through what is most likely a tweaked copy of CrystalDiskMark. :lol:
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostSun Jul 07, 2019 9:23 am

In all fairness, RED does offer free media recovery service to their customers and have a dedicated team and software for that. Although in contrary it is funny when:

In 07-31-2016 Jarred Land (president of RED) wrote:

Like all of you, we spend a lot of time money and effort creating what we do.

For our media, we developed our own IP and Firmware and spent millions of dollars testing, certifying and QC every media card that we ship. Its why we have significantly less card errors than other companies using generic media... even reputable generic media.

Media is one of the most critical components of the entire system and the way we write to a card is very different than a normal SSD is programed for.

For some random company to hack and duplicate our IP and our firmware ( which is the only way they could do this ) is exactly like someone stealing your films and calling them their own and selling them to others. It goes against everything I stand for.


And in 07-06-2019 Jarred Land (president of RED) wrote:

First, we never claimed to make our own media. We have always used brand name drives from the leaders in the space. Always have, and likely always will.

We do not use generic media.. i.e. non branded ,lower quality media, as I have said before.

Nor have we ever said all the parts were made in the United States. The country of origin is the USA, because we take all the parts from different sources and transform them into a product in the USA, which is accurate.

We of course make our own firmware to write to the media and the media has it’s own unique identifiers to accept the writing from the firmware. Our patent covers encoding and decoding REDCODE to media. We do that to verify the accuracy of the encoding to protect users,..


As for the price… as I said previously, yes RED MAGS are expensive. The millions of dollars of R&D around media recording, the testing , the support for issues and firmware updates etc., along with the hours of no charge media recovery we do every single day for customers needs to be paid somehow. That get’s rolled into the cards and thats why they are so expensive. And yes, that amortization does eventually get paid off slowly, and every so often we do adjust the price of the cards lower to reflect that.


So basically they sell you an insurance without telling you so, where all are paying for the "free" service of media recovery. Which should be needed "significantly less than other companies using generic media" but has to be done every single day for customers. Hmm.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostMon Jul 08, 2019 2:42 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:In all fairness, RED does offer free media recovery service to their customers and have a dedicated team and software for that.


Character matters.
Volkswagen was penalized for what they did with the diesel thing.

Unfortunately I do not think that people are too surprised if this turns out to be true.

After all did RED not set itself up as the rebellious company?
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Peter Odio

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 4:49 pm

For a long time RED has pioneer the digital revolution in Digital Cinematography, with products and patents, what 10 years ago seem like low prices compared to 35mm film prices and rentals.

I shoot with Red and have always been very pleased with the results, and their r3d redcode was a first in the industry, Arri, Sony and Blackmagic have changed the game.

The prices of SSDs have gone down 74% or more in the last 5 years, just like prices of CFast and SD cards are falling.

Red have been shamed and they will probably lower their prices.
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Australian Image

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 6:23 am

There's some additional reading here: https://www.cinema5d.com/whats-inside-a ... statement/
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Australian Image

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostSat Jul 13, 2019 8:58 pm

And further to that, Redshark News: https://www.redsharknews.com/business/i ... -jinni-ltd is attempting to defend RED with the most stupid analogies that I've yet heard. The article could have been written by RED itself.
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 12:28 pm

Australian Image wrote:And further to that, Redshark News: https://www.redsharknews.com/business/i ... -jinni-ltd is attempting to defend RED with the most stupid analogies that I've yet heard. The article could have been written by RED itself.


This topic is one of those things that really makes me question the IQ of your average person. I have seen so many people defending RED with horrendously stupid opinions, and analogies.


This is the newest video on the topic by the way!
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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 9:53 pm

Australia has similar rules regarding claims of Made in Australia or Assembled in Australia.
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John Brawley

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 1:47 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:

So basically they sell you an insurance without telling you so, where all are paying for the "free" service of media recovery. Which should be needed "significantly less than other companies using generic media" but has to be done every single day for customers. Hmm.




MMMm kind of.

But.

If you don't own the card it they won't do the recovery apparently.

I was in pre on a series a couple of years ago, 2017 and we tested RED against Alexa for the series.

It was a panavision owned RED because I wanted to use panavision lenses and we had the show's DIT who was RED experienced, and yet the card failed. We could see the clips, sort of as thumbnails. We could get them to show up in camera. Couldn't download them. Red undead didn't work.

We sent it into RED and they came back a few days later. They wanted 500 bucks to recover our camera tests.

So much for reliable media and free data recovery.

Needless to say we didn't bother getting the test so we have no idea if the RED would have been a better camera against the Alexa :-)

JB

- to be fair I've had cFast fail twice with Alexa. Once I recovered the clip and once I couldn't.

So far cFast on BMD cameras has worked without fail...
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 2:33 pm

Thanks for chiming in John.
After having seen the cheap flash media and file format RED was using, there is no wonder that their cards do fail any less than others.

Looks like they did calculate the media margin against the cost of free recovery service and decided to go with the higher margin vs risk of failure.

My anecdotal evidence is - I had one CFast2.0 card die out of 12. But that was a Lexar 256GB I bought very cheap from ebay, so I suspect it never was A grade anyway.
And I lost 4x 256GB cards in a foreign hotel in Hungary because they where in a black protection box and I couldn't see the box in the dim light of the room laying around. After back home I found the cards to be missing, it was too late and I guess someone in Hungary doubled his salary for 4 months.
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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 26, 2019 1:48 am

Looks like the RED owner is always finding excuses for failure: https://www.dpreview.com/news/210724272 ... e-troubles.

In a statement published by RED founder Jim Jannard, the company is now saying that the issues were caused by the Chinese original design manufacturer (ODM) which designed the phone in line with RED's requirements and specifications.

According to Jannard, both the mechanical packaging and software integration with the Snapdragon 835 chipset were tasks of the ODM and getting them completed was apparently ‘beyond challenging.’


Maybe Jannard should have just housed an Android or Apple phone in a RED case and called it innovation.

And I also had a thought about the recent articles in Newshooter and RedShark News where the former wouldn't comment on certain issues for 'legal reasons' and the latter came out with a ridiculous story supporting RED. It may be that they get advertising revenue from RED and may have a contract that stipulates that they can't accuse RED of any wrongdoing, or something to that effect.
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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 26, 2019 2:48 pm

Australian Image wrote:
And I also had a thought about the recent articles in Newshooter and RedShark News where the former wouldn't comment on certain issues for 'legal reasons' and the latter came out with a ridiculous story supporting RED. It may be that they get advertising revenue from RED and may have a contract that stipulates that they can't accuse RED of any wrongdoing, or something to that effect.



Read back a few years and you'll find the answer, though they will never come right out and say it. I was very disappointed with David's article on Redshark, there is taking the high road, and then his article. Can't ruffle any feathers.

Still waiting for the rest of the Jinnimag videos, the next on should get us right down to the nitty gritty of things. The last left us with a little bit of hashed data being the only thing that separates Red drives from drives bought at Newegg. Figure out the hash based on the serial number, and you have Red compatible drives.
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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostFri Jul 26, 2019 8:50 pm

I think Jannard has a lot of egg on his face by now and no amount of PR is going to change that, not that Jannard has a clue about PR given how he's reacted to every piece of criticism.

A given the reported crap that Blackmagic has gone through with RED and CDNG, I think this is quite a fitting bit of Karma that's come to bite RED. And it's schadenfreude at its best.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostSat Jul 27, 2019 2:43 pm

Greg_E wrote:I was very disappointed with David's article on Redshark,


I second that.

Here is an other interesting take on the situation with Red.

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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Creative with the truth.

PostSat Jul 27, 2019 3:02 pm

This sort of thing makes one appreciate Grant Petty and his boxes of chocolates a whole lot more.

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