RED Patent may not be legal

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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 1:04 pm

PART 4:

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Steve Holmlund

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 4:59 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:PART 4:



Didn't think I'd watch an hour plus but once you get started....

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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 5:41 pm

It's getting more and more interesting. Now I know why I was banned from RED forum for asking to many to detailed questions :D
How long until we see blockbuster: "The Real RED Story" "(shot on RED)?

I can also guess what part5 will be about.
RED claims about RECODE being so unique, amazing and developed with 100M$ with 500 RED engineers will end up being just a licensed JPEG2000 code (from company like IntoPix) and put into one of the Xilinx boards.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 6:17 pm

Thanks Dmitry. Too tired, too long, and nodding off listening to that. The author is good, but he missed Jim's words, that he was saying a certain type of company didn't supply the mysterium, but that doesn't mean that the type of company that did didn't do it.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 6:29 pm

You were banned, that's unusual. Were you one of the ones that said something and a moderator jumped on you trying to defend Jim? I am trying to remember.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 6:45 pm

It was long time ago when RED was starting. Too many, too difficult questions to their so bold claims :D
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 6:54 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It was long time ago when RED was starting. Too any, too difficult questions to their so bold claims :D


RED have long held as a badge of honour, and fostered a near myopic brand view.

There are many that that have signed NDAs over incidents with RED. Several well known public spats (Boyle and Bloom)

This is all Karma and I honestly don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

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Dan Sherman

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 5:33 am

Honestly, the more I watch videos on it and the more I do my own personal research, the more disgusted I get.

It generally seems like the founders and other high-ranking members of the company are complete slime balls who have spent the vast majority of their time bloviating about how amazing and awesome they and their company story is. All the while doing everything they can to silence anything that sheds a negative light on them or red.

Ultimately their low-level employees are the ones that are really going to get hit hard when everything starts going south.
Last edited by Dan Sherman on Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 6:01 am

You should have read my post. The situation is unreal.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 7:06 am

:roll: :roll:
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 11:29 am

Buying technology and claiming it’s made in house. Reverse engineer exciting codecs (most likely..cineform?). Make horrific patents that force other companies to their knees. Boosting company value by widely signing NDA’s with famous names. It all seem like a great scam. However, they have made some great cameras on the road.

I was also a worshiper in the beginning. The revolution train was great back than. But I believe many slowly understood that there was something unsound going on. The true value of this company, is the drive force that changed a conservative industry. That has to be recognized in my opinion.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 12:17 pm

The revolution predates Red, and includes the SI. But I felt betrayed when it came, as it was too expensive for true low end.

Red just happened to be the most marketed.

Thinking there was something wrong, the war theme, the skulls, the machinery. I didn't get involved with Red in the early days, because of the pricing. A $5k camera for $17.5k.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 5:53 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Red just happened to be the most marketed.


That’s because this company is founded by one of the most successful businessman alive. He can practically sell sand in Sahara. People where screaming for a next gen camera back than. Using the same analog. He walked into the desert with cans of water. Who wouldn’t buy?
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostSun Sep 22, 2019 6:14 pm

I didn't like the mysterium sensor image. I did not buy. The dragon was the first image I liked, but this had a lot to do with the colour science, of which I preferred my pocket video camera. People bought truckloads of Alexa colour instead.

He's not the most successful business man ever, even he would not say that. Selling expensive sunglasses is also like selling sand at an art exhibition, fashion.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostMon Sep 23, 2019 2:36 pm

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostMon Sep 23, 2019 4:06 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Dr. Eric Fossum about the video:
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com ... ories.html


his 2 comments read like someone who wants to say more, but doesn't because he knows it's in his best interests not to.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostMon Sep 23, 2019 4:23 pm

It's a shame it comes to that.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostMon Sep 23, 2019 4:48 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Dr. Eric Fossum about the video:
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com ... ories.html


He doesn’t strike me as a hot head. More a well spoken man, that thinks ahead. This time much moderated than what we saw in the video. I’m not jumping to any conclusions. But find it interesting. It’s hard to deny that it’s a pretty good product.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 5:48 pm

Aside:
Thanks for the video featuring Jim Jannard under oath clarifying and revising all those claims I followed religiously about RED in this formative days. Appreciate the corrections in 2019, Jim; that couldn’t have been easy.

Illuminating to hear about Eric Fossum and his wife Dr. Sabrina Kemeny (who toiled in the basement while on maternity leave revolutionizing sensors). Eric is documented thoroughly in Wikipedia as well. Dr. Sabrina Kemeny? No entry for her.


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 6:03 pm

For each thing revealed it alls looks like RED, for their own aggrandizement, was overly hyping most of the things they have been bragging about. Pretty much really good BS marketing. :)

They bought consumer hardware or off the shell components and packaged it in cool looking metal chassis and told everyone it was the result of their own long running and expensive research and manufacturing.
And even their raw compression patent is built upon others ideas and repackaged.

It does not make their cameras any worse, they do still produce really good image quality, but it give many customers a bad taste.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 7:54 pm

Part of the RED aura, maybe all of the aura, was due to their misrepresentation of reality solely for the purpose elevating their personal and corporate stature. And you repeat this fantasy for years until it’s perceived as reality. Any preschool child with a limited vocabulary can explain it better than Jinni or Eric or I can say: “they’re lying, mommy!”


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 7:56 pm

Actually makes me feel terrible I didn’t know Dalsa in 2003!


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 7:59 pm

Dalsa was ahead of their time for sure. One of their brightest minds went on to form Hot Rod Cameras:

https://hotrodcameras.com
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 8:24 pm

Thanks for reminding us of that gem!


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 8:36 pm

Yes I remember the 4K dalsa cam in the early 2000. But as I remember it was expansive and hard to get,
Not for the crowd. That was the master plan of RED. Red-one, A camera for the masses.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 8:38 pm

True and it promised things Dalsa wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole: release of their 4K for $4K! We know how well that turned out.


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 9:47 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:Dalsa was ahead of their time for sure. One of their brightest minds went on to form Hot Rod Cameras:

https://hotrodcameras.com

A very smart and interesting guy, and very nice. I bought my BMPCC4K from Hot Rod and talked to him about the history of his company for a while.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostTue Sep 24, 2019 10:50 pm

I've been let down by the hype and non deliveries, and the fans are like they are in another world. But I think they are grounded, and did achieve a lot, just pushing it.

People have arguments about fullhd and I point out pocket fullhd at an early date, they argue about 4k and hdr and here we see the dalsa years before Red etc, they argue about 8k, and early last decade there was an 8k proto camera and I think a commercial one a few years later, but I might have that mixed up. But, it's just the same sort of people voicing off their opinion but not knowing what's going on. But, at each step, advantages get shown. 16k-32k, is going be less and less use outside of reframing and zoom, but what are they going say? All the Barr Humbug people, will be saying Barr Humbug, some of them as obnoxiously and loudly as usual.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 12:10 am

Hi Folks,

This is a really great thread which sheds some light on the issues, but at the end of the day what have Red actually done wrong? They have appear to have lied about where some of the equipment was made, and fabricated a backstory for the company to make it more like Apple's and Microsoft's. And that's about it. Not too dissimilar to several successful US companies I bet. They have after all brought to market a series of really rather good Cinema Cameras as well.

The Patent is interesting with the out of scope dates, but I wouldn't put my money on Apple winning the case, however if pre existing examples of other parts of the Patent appear then it might be a different story.

Which leaves us with the Hydrogen Phone, which is as disappointing as it is bonkers. If it had been any good we would probably all have one! I can only assume that they saw it as a potential 'cash cow' for a much larger market. Are they doing a second gen one?

Can't wait for the next video.

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 am

Steve Golding wrote:Hi Folks,

This is a really great thread which sheds some light on the issues, but at the end of the day what have Red actually done wrong?...
Can't wait for the next video.

Steve


Well, the FTC may get around to challenging the "Made in USA" claims but that's the FTC's business. If the 3rd Jinni Tech video is accurate, the $1450 external display consists of < $50 in parts. Nothing wrong with that in a free market but if you are going to position yourself as a premium brand, you should go all out with premium everything and not cut any corners. People understand the mark-up for service and support and quality products; they're less understanding when it looks like they're getting gouged for rebranded commodities.

It's a little bit of live by the hype, die by the hype.

All this gives me an appreciation that BMD hasn't launched a "cult of the personality" around Mr. Petty. Yet. Please don't. Just stick to being an honest business with good products that is always trying to improve and make its customers happy.

Just my opinion, as always.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 12:38 am

Add their Red Mag to the list. Hardly anything was premium beyond the case.


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 1:00 am

Yep Steve and Rick, I agree with the points, but I feel they are kind of covered in lying to customers. Agree that the quality of components is very dodgy issue. I can't see a way they come out not looking like greedy money grabbing b*******s, but much of the capitalist corporate world could be there with them as well at times!

BMD do seem to be much more (infinitely more?) grounded as a company.

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 3:09 am

Steve, all those things are bad, just some people don't have an idea these days. Their definition of bad cones down this cluelessly disagreeing with what they want to believe.

But various things may not he a lie. If you buy a sensor house and merge it into your business, you Are designing sensors. If you pay 100x the price for the top 0.01% of a flash component by reliable performance, you are spending the money and delivering. If you are doing the rest of the cartridge in house, you are doing that at least in house, or whatever it is. It depends on how you look at it. But, if you tell people you are going to release the name of your sensor provider and don't, and that you are going to reveal details of a codec and don't, or are going to give somebody a job and don't, or are going release a certain cabera and don't, or other things like a multipoint camera noduke first your phone in a time period, but don't after you keep changing it, what are you doing?

If you listen to sound advice on I've hand, then get unwise people to implement it, and on the other hand reject sound advice that help, how will it go?

I think as far as hype about cameras etc, the fan base is doing a lot if it. I think they are probably a lot more temperate than the fans.

You equate to Apple. Steve was a friend of Jim. Sure Red might be a little like Apple, you just need good corral masters, and brains and initiative.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 5:02 am

Seems words like integrity, trust, truth-telling, honesty, promise-keeping, community, humility, and a hundred more such terms just aren’t important to some folks and I fear you never wonder why it seems society is crumbling all around us to the point that many won’t bring children into this world. Save the planet means so much more than climate change; it means taking responsibility for your role in life to nurture and grow the whole. Enough said on that observation.


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 6:00 am

Not quite. I have to agree "Yep!". Some people think humbleness is agreeing with them, not the truth, which is then deemed unhumble. They don't see it as putting themselves down compared to truth, and uplifting others to the common good, who can help people.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 6:07 am

On more thing. If you have such a great employees as RED claimed/s, who developed sensor, REDCODE etc- show them to the public, be proud of them.
So what are the names of the 1st sensor developers? If RED played it differently they would have a great place in history, now it's too late. They will bee left with some credits, but all will be shadowed by all other crap.

Part 5 will reveal tat REDCODE is nothing more than yet another "bought/licensed" bit of technology and circle will close.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 7:06 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:RED claims about RECODE being so unique, amazing and developed with 100M$ with 500 RED engineers will end up being just a licensed JPEG2000 code


Redcode is wavelet compression, Jpeg is Discrete Cosine transform.

So if Red got Wavelet from anyone, it'd be as far back as the '90's, with the Quadrant QMotion 250 PCI based analog video capture board.

IIRC, The Bravado 1000 and 2000 boards (also known as Truevision and Avid boards) also had Wavelet compression available.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 7:57 am

The jpeg2000 is wavelet based and RED based their REDCode on the Jpeg2000 codec.


Stewart Fairweather wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:RED claims about RECODE being so unique, amazing and developed with 100M$ with 500 RED engineers will end up being just a licensed JPEG2000 code


Redcode is wavelet compression, Jpeg is Discrete Cosine transform.

So if Red got Wavelet from anyone, it'd be as far back as the '90's, with the Quadrant QMotion 250 PCI based analog video capture board.

IIRC, The Bravado 1000 and 2000 boards (also known as Truevision and Avid boards) also had Wavelet compression available.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 9:11 am

Stewart Fairweather wrote:IIRC, The Bravado 1000 and 2000 boards (also known as Truevision and Avid boards) also had Wavelet compression available.


No, those cards were Motion-JPEG only. The Bravado 1000 for example supported just 640x480 capturing. The Bravado 2000 was able to capture full screen up to 60 fields per sec.

I still own a Vlab-Motion capture card for the Amiga system which could capture full res 4:2:2 video in 1994. Wavelet compression was not feasible then. BTW, a friend of mine did some MPEG-1 compressions for a university project on the first Intel Pentium back then and it took a week of computing per video.

JPEG2000 specs were finished in 1997 and Motion-JPEG2000 in 2001. Cineform was introduced 2002.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 9:50 am

Username wrote:The jpeg2000 is wavelet based and RED based their REDCode on the Jpeg2000 codec.


Stewart Fairweather wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:RED claims about RECODE being so unique, amazing and developed with 100M$ with 500 RED engineers will end up being just a licensed JPEG2000 code


Redcode is wavelet compression, Jpeg is Discrete Cosine transform.

So if Red got Wavelet from anyone, it'd be as far back as the '90's, with the Quadrant QMotion 250 PCI based analog video capture board.

IIRC, The Bravado 1000 and 2000 boards (also known as Truevision and Avid boards) also had Wavelet compression available.


Yes, Redcode was based around jpeg2000 but in second version it be and more like the faster original Bayer raw cineform. What they did after that, I don't know, but not $100 million worth I would imagine, even with redray. But who knows what deals were done.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 10:31 am

Redcode is wavelet jpg2000, same as cineform raw. Question is, how different are they really..
Maybe that’s revealed in part 5 of this documentary.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 10:53 am

I guess it's just licensed "typical" Jpeg2000. Whole problem was to do it in realtime in camera. It needed good chip and code, which companies like eg. intoPIX have. Cineform is a lighter version of Jpeg2000- slightly worse compression, but for the price of been few times easier to encode/decode.
I'm expecting REDCODE to be nothing more than previous revelations- not developed in house, but simply licensed.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 2:59 pm

redcode was pretty high compressed in the beginning as well. I remember full-size framegrabs from
“Crossing the line” shot by Peter Jackson. Those looked underwhelming and more like uprez 720p. The forum was really split back than because of lack of detail and mushy compression. Jim and the crew was furious at the nei-sayers. But they manage to gradually bump up the quality over time. Braw on the other hand, in comparison, came storming out of the gate.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 3:53 pm

Steve Golding wrote:Which leaves us with the Hydrogen Phone, which is as disappointing as it is bonkers. If it had been any good we would probably all have one! I can only assume that they saw it as a potential 'cash cow' for a much larger market. Are they doing a second gen one?


They are working on a 2nd gen Hydrogen, but it's not actually the failure that you think. It was among other things a pilot for some new technology developed by Leia, which I believe partnered with Red because most of Red's customers are content creators. Leia's technology has no chance at going anywhere without demand, and to generate demand for display technology there needs to be content that makes that display technology desirable.

So far, every single person I know who has SEEN the 3D images on a Hydrogen has been impressed by them.

As far as phones go, it's basically an extra-sturdy Android phone with a huge battery.

For the Red users who bought it, the biggest disappointment was the module plans going awry, but in the end the camera part is getting an upgrade so... who knows.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 5:42 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:Redcode is wavelet jpg2000, same as cineform raw. Question is, how different are they really..
Maybe that’s revealed in part 5 of this documentary.


Jp2k is slow cumbersome, cineform is sleeker and faster from being different. I've spoken with them about it.

You remember all the stuff about Braw when it came out?

I watched Ad Astra last night, using jpeg2k for distribution which might be too compressed.
The lack of detail was distracting, as was the noise (film).
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:59 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 6:58 pm

Here is an interesting comparison to this Red innovation and pricing conversation. This company has claimed to use 1000 engineers, over 2 years and $70 million dollars to develop this phone:

https://m.gsmarena.com/the_unique_displ ... -39337.php



I forgot, it has a 108mp camera.
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timbutt2

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostThu Sep 26, 2019 1:02 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Steve Golding wrote:Which leaves us with the Hydrogen Phone, which is as disappointing as it is bonkers. If it had been any good we would probably all have one! I can only assume that they saw it as a potential 'cash cow' for a much larger market. Are they doing a second gen one?


They are working on a 2nd gen Hydrogen, but it's not actually the failure that you think. It was among other things a pilot for some new technology developed by Leia, which I believe partnered with Red because most of Red's customers are content creators. Leia's technology has no chance at going anywhere without demand, and to generate demand for display technology there needs to be content that makes that display technology desirable.

So far, every single person I know who has SEEN the 3D images on a Hydrogen has been impressed by them.

As far as phones go, it's basically an extra-sturdy Android phone with a huge battery.

For the Red users who bought it, the biggest disappointment was the module plans going awry, but in the end the camera part is getting an upgrade so... who knows.

Ironically, I looked at the 3D on the Hydrogen and said it was no different from the MasterImage auto-stereoscopic 3D screens displayed in 2011. In fact, I feel like they used the MasterImage cell matrix tech to make the 3D screens. And, again this is exactly what people have pointed out. It's all marketing existing tech as if it's new and special in some way because it is from RED.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostThu Sep 26, 2019 1:53 am

Yes, that tech was old by then.
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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostThu Sep 26, 2019 3:47 am

“Can’t teach an old dog new tricks” they just keep doing what’s worked in the past!

All very difficult to find any credibility when the shams are becoming public knowledge. Yes, there are good products coming out of the factory, but I think this doesn’t bode well for the future.

The very early fans who have devoted say 15 years of idolization must feel like The Leftovers. What of the employees that knew this for years but soldiered on. All the ‘hydrogen’ gone from their balloons. The military theme permeating their industrial design no longer implies a strength threatening the status quo, more a meek illusion of defense of their liquid foundation.


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Re: RED Patent may not be legal

PostThu Sep 26, 2019 5:58 am

One thing I always wonder about with this patent discussion, is that while videos like this may sound legit, Sony actually took RED to court over this and ended up settling. This isn't just 'small' guys like Atomos and Blackmagic getting bullied into submission, video industry giant Sony also couldn't make a convincing enough case to break this patent apparently.
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