Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm con

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Alex Delfont

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Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm con

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 1:38 pm

Sorry for the mish mash of questions, I didn't want to start lots of threads. I've been doing so much research but there's so many arguments in the comments that I end up more confused than before!

I'm an MFT user, on a lumix g85, I use the Nocticron 42.5, Lumix 12-35 2.8 and Mitakon 25mm 0.95 lenses mostly. I am mostly interested in video, more on the cinematic side than vlogging or documentary stuff. For a while I'd been feeling frustrated with my set up, even with some great lenses. I felt the images coming out of the camera were just not as good as many I was seeing from full frame users. I felt the colours were always horrible out of the camera and even in premiere/lightroom were hard to get right. I struggled a lot in low light situations, the lack of dynamic range, and trying to get shallow depth of field with my wider lenses. I kept seeing sony users videos and photos and thinking 'wow!'

So I was getting very close to selling all my gear buying an A7iii and a couple of lenses, but it was going to cost me a lot and something was holding me back!

I've been reflecting more about what I really want to focus on, and it's video much more than photos. And my main priority is the image, so the dynamic range and colour science. I know people throw around the terms 'cinematic' and 'filmic 'all the time and it doesnt mean much, but there is something to the look of films which most DSLR and Mirrorless cameras just don't match. I dont mean framing of shots, or DOF, just the picture...that organic film like look, with a certain softness, a certain colou. Its hard to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean. When I see Sony or GH5 footage it looks like digital video in most shots, like TV shows

What would you say are the main causes of these cameras looking this way compared to popular digital film cameras like Alexas? Because the new Sony's claim 15 stops of dynamic range which is as much as most of these cinema cameras. Is it true though or just marketing? Or is it that the sony has 8 bit colour? Or does it have to do with the compressed codecs compared to RAW video? If anyone can clear this up for me I would be eternally grateful! Because I dont really understand what makes the image of a 'cinema' camera so different, or is it more in the lenses!

So this got me thinking about Blackmagic again, as some of the only affordable cinema cameras. The new BMPCC4k is on the horizon, and I have my MFT lenses already. I've been looking at footage from the original BMPCC and really so much of it looks better to my eyes than any of these new cameras. It looks like a movie!

Then finally I've read that the GH5s has much improved colour science, and the low light ability. But I've watched videos, and it doesnt match the filmic look of the BMPCC.

So now I'm stuck, as I don't want to lose the ability to take photos, but I need to prioritise cinematic quality footage. I thought of these options :

- Sony A7iii for videos and photos. (expensive!!) or wait for A7siii

- Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4k when it arrives for video, and keep a G9 or G85 for photography. (not ideal for photos, but might be ok).

- GH5s for video, but I've not researched this enough

Sorry for these ramblings, if anyone got through this I appreciate your opinions
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Denny Smith

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm

I was also looking at the GH5S, until BM announced the new Pocket 4K, which has the same sensor as the GH5S. Neither are good still ca,eras due to their native low resolution, but are excellent video cameras.
I have the new Pen F for stills, and will be getting the new Pocket 4K, for its larger sensor over the current Pocket/Micro Cinema Camera.

I would recommend waiting, and get the new Pocket if yiu want the BM co,or science and film like look.
Keep,yiur current G85 or get the G9 for still work. You already have some nice MFT glass. I also have the Panny Leica 42.5 Noct, excellent lens.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Alex Delfont

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 3:59 pm

Thanks Denny

So as the GH5s has the same sensor as the BMPCC4k, doesnt that mean they should produce very similar results, or at least be capable of it? I just haven't seen many GH5 videos that have looked like film to me, so I wonder if the GH5s can get closer to the BM stuff, I've watched a few videos and havent seen it yet!

I was so set on Sony and researched obsessively for months, and now I'm back at the start it feels like! :)
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 4:01 pm

Alex Delfont wrote:What would you say are the main causes of these cameras looking this way compared to popular digital film cameras like Alexas? Because the new Sony's claim 15 stops of dynamic range which is as much as most of these cinema cameras. Is it true though or just marketing? Or is it that the sony has 8 bit colour? Or does it have to do with the compressed codecs compared to RAW video? If anyone can clear this up for me I would be eternally grateful! Because I dont really understand what makes the image of a 'cinema' camera so different, or is it more in the lenses!


This is a really good question and I'd like to know the answer too.

At first I assumed it was dynamic range, but as you point out the newer mirrorless and DSLR cameras have better dynamic range but still don't achieve the same "film-like" look.

I'm not sure 8-bit vs. 10-bit accounts for it either, since chances are you're looking at these videos on an 8-bit monitor.

The codecs can't be it either, since you can record ProRes or raw video from a DSLR or mirrorless camera using an external recorder as long as the camera outputs clean video via HDMI.

It's not the lenses either, as you can put the same lens on a GHwhatever and a Pocket but the images will look different.

Maybe it's just our imagination, or maybe it boils down to "colour science."
Resolve 18 Studio, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 5:14 pm

Alex, yes and no. The GH5S has Panasonic color science, and camera, but to me it is more of a “Video” look, unless you film in VLog (similar to BM Film Log) but it restricted to dynamic range, so it will match up,with the EVA1. The GH5S is not using the full dynamic range of the sensor. Camera recording codec is compressed h.264/265 type AVCHD or other lesser compressed format, but still more compressed than ProRes. Also, no Raw recording.

The new BM Pocket 4K will be using the sensor’s full dynamic range, or close to it, and will record BM Co,or Science 4, with Raw, Film Log and Extended Video to ProRes codec. Raw and Film Log give you your biggest dynamic range, in that order, and handle post production color and other image adjustments better than AVCHD or Panny VLog. If you want a more film like image, than the BM Pocet Camera 4K is your best bet.

Both cameras are good, and the look they produce is subject to personal preference, and what you are trying to achieve. Same is true of lens choices, which can also have a major influence on the final image and look

The GH5S is $2400 for the camera body only. The BM Pocket 4K is going to be around $1400, and will include Resolve full Studio edition (a $300 value added in), to grade and edit your work in.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Alex Delfont

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 6:28 pm

Thanks Denny

I've just been told in another forum that theres no confirmation about the BMPCC4k having the same sensor as the GH5s, its just a rumour, BM have not confirmed or denied it. But everything you say makes a lot of sense, and fills me with more confidence that the BMPCC4k will be quite different from the GH5s.

In another forum I mostly got told that I should not be looking for a new camera, as thats not the issue, and that cinematic has little to do with the gear and more to do with the composition etc.

I very much understand thats part of it, and I'm not a complete noob just looking for 'that cinematic look'. I feel uninspired by my current setup, even when the shots are very good, when I'm happy with the composition and lighting etc. but I still feel something in the actual image doesnt look right. This is what leads me back to thinking about Blackmagic, and cinema cameras, but I like to understand a bit more about why these cameras are able to look more organic or emulate more of a film look!

Part of what I want to do is tell stories with images that inspire and get across the feel I'm trying to convey, and that has a lot to do with camera and lens choices. I dont really agree with all the people who say it doesnt and you can just shoot on your iphone.

Thanks for all the advice, any more input welcome :)
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Denny Smith

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 7:02 pm

Yes, BM has not confirmed nor denied they are using the Sony sensor — but, the specs they give match it, and there are not a lot of MFT sensors in that category, except for the Sony sensor, or a variation of it.
So I’d is a fairly safe bet it is the same or very similar sensor from Sony.

That said, a camera is more tha it’s sensor, and you can take the sam sensor, out it into two different cameras, and you will get two very different looking images. It is more about How a sensor is used and how the image is processed by that camera that makes the difference. But like any recipe, you need good ingredients start with, to get good results out the other end.

How you use the camera, lens choices you make, and lighting design, all have an I,pact on the final results. I use S16 cameras, started out on them, and the biggest sensor I have used is the MFT format for video. Most of my video career was shooting 2/3rds and 1/2 inch sensor ENG type cameras, after 16mm film. Going back to S16, was a step up from thr 2/3rds csmeras, made possible by BM’s first
I let Camera and later the Micro Cinema and Micro Studio 4K camers, which have two different looks, one film, one more like video. My MFT camera was a AF100, originally used for chroma key (green screen work). It has been replaced by a Ursa 4K, which lives in the Studio.

Different tools for different uses, that is what it is all about. No one answer is good for every situation, you need to find the tool that fits, and does what you want it to do. Good Luck.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Alex Delfont

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostThu Jun 21, 2018 9:07 am

Thanks

I'm just wondering why if so many people want the look of cinema cameras, that these video centric hybrids like the A7 series or GH5s etc. don't manage to get an image more similar to the BMPCC for instance. Do you think its just because they have their cinema line of cameras to protect?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Questions about cinema cameras, video and equipment. I'm

PostThu Jun 21, 2018 4:38 pm

I would say in par, yes, especially in the case of Sony. With Panasonic, it more the left hand not talking to the right hand, as it has different divisions that do not communicate much, each designing and making their products somewhat independently, under a central management, from what I understand.

The Cinema camera division makes the EVA1 and Varicams, and formly the AF100. The GH series is in the still camera division, and the GH5S was built more in response to a hybrid small action type csmera thst was more Video and less still shooting, with some Cinema capability, and was coordinated with the Cinema camera division, to get their VLog (which is from thr Cinmea Camera division) to work with the GH5 and GH5S, but with reduced dynamic range, to allow it to cut in with the EVA1 footage in post.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions

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