Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

Getting started with a Blackmagic product? Ask questions here about setup and installation.
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SpencerSkoglund

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Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostMon Aug 18, 2014 9:34 am

Hello,
Since I can not find anyone who has ever done a setup like this. And blackmagic does not have a hardware representative that I can call to talk about what hardware I should get. And that there is no "expert" in this field I can talk to I figure I would ask here first.

I am just getting into streaming of live gaming events and I need to create a very custom system/setup for us. After a lot of searching and looking around Blackmagic's stuff seems to be the best "solution" for me without hacking something together from prosumer parts. However there is a lot of options/routes I could take in making this system and there is no "expert" I can talk to that I can find. Also I am concerned about using Blackmagic because I know a lot of people who use Blackmagic cards to capture computers/consoles run into a lot of issues. And I need this setup to have no issues especially with computers since that is the reason and life blood of the system I need to build.

Here is my requirements for the setup that I need:
- Capture minimum of 5 computers(or Consoles), 8 Ideal, 10-12 Max
- Capture 1080P 60 FPS into the system and possibly out(from console game or PC)
- Be able to parent and overlay a webcam/other camera feed to each of those computer feeds
- Feed in 4-6 cameras as their own feeds for the event
- Transition/cut between all those feeds at any point for the final live stream output
- Be able to overlay any media files
- Be able to record the "Baked" computer feeds with the webcam/camera overlay to a HDD or SSD. for editing later.

The closest thing I can find to what I need is the "Livestream Studio HD1710" It would be perfect however this system can only record 4 of the needed 5 feeds. That is also a far cry to the ideal 8 or 10 max that we would like to handle. Their software says you can get them to increase the number of feeds recording however I called and they said they could not. They told me it is a software limitation however I feel it is more of a hardware "limitation" (that could be overcome) if anything it is lazy programming. I talked to three of their sales people and they all were garbage and did not want to help me and they made me mad to top it off. Anyways bellow I have some main questions I need answered about Blackmagic hardware. Any advice experience would be greatly appreciated.

Questions I have:
1. If I buy from the DeckLink line of products and fill up a computer's PCIe slots with them can I record all of the feeds from all the cards? spreading the bandwidth by sending 2-3 feeds per HHD/SSD in the system to avoid bottle necking the write speed of the HHD/SSD.

2. Can the ATEM line parent a second feed to each feed? for example computer 1 has webcam 1 and computer 2 has webcam 2 so when I cut/transition between the two the camera feeds stay with their respected computers/feeds?

3. Is there a benefit in using the ATEM over a computer with the DeckLink cards in it? Do I get more options one way or the other? (would a combo be worth it?)

4. Is there any software that is by Blackmagic or designed for Blackmagic hardware that would let me use the DeckLink cards on a PC all at once and possibly record? (Ignoring Livestreams software since they do not want to take my money or work with me, and they made me mad!)

5. How much badnwidth do the DeckLink cards use on the PCIe bus? Stats on the site lists PCIe x1. Could they work off a PCIe spliter?

6. Can you convert a computer/console HDMI into SDI and have it still work on the other end? (youtube(.)com/watch?v=SwiYodA3b_w) <-- This guy had issues with doing that with his ATEM

Plans/Ideas so far:

Idea 1:
This system is larger but should give me a good balance between having cut/transition powers and possibility of recording. However in one review a person said he could not use his computer on the ATEM which scares me from this idea. Also would need the ability to show multiple cameras on one screen.
Use a combo system using the ATEM to cut/transition and overlay the main feeds. Then use a seprate computer to record the needed 6-8 SDI outs from the ATEM system of the computer feeds. And use the same computer to send out the main feed to the internet.

Idea 2:
This set up is more ideal because its one unit and everything is controlled on one unit but might lack some options and controls I may want in the end.
Build my own LiveStream Studio HD1710 "LIKE" system and use different software that has the features I need. And either send out the stream on another computer if that is too taxing on its dual 8 core Xeon Processors I have or do it all on that machine if it can handle it. If I can not find the right software I might have to code one myself with the given SDK. But that is a last resort.

Anyways thanks for reading, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also if you need me to elaborate on any points let me know I will answer any questions.

Thanks,
Spencer

TL;DR:
-Starting Live stream of gaming events need to stream computers/consoles and cameras.
-Need help picking out what Blackmagic parts to get to make the system I need.
-No one else has "Done" what I need before or makes what I need.
-Livestream pissed me off and their system isn't good enough.
-Any help would be appreciated!
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Lance Lewis

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostTue Aug 19, 2014 4:22 am

Okay, I am going to assume the following which may not be true:
the computer and overlay that need to stay in sync is the game screen and a live feed of the person playing that game.

If that's the case I think I have a fairly simple solution.

Lets call each gaming computer a gaming station. Each station has gaming software like xfire or twitch tv or fraps or something along those lines. Each station had a webcam. Each gaming station is configured to send their gaming screen with webcam displayed as pip. This configuration do far is very standard for any gamer that wants to stream their game online. Check into gaming software that will allow you to make this setup happen. Each gaming station will stream live to what ever service/software you have selected.

Next we have the viewing stations. For every gaming station you will need a separate viewing station (unless you use alternate idea below). Each viewing station will be watching the stream from the corresponding gaming computer. Each viewing computer will also be brought into an BM switcher as a source. If the viewing computers have an Hdmi out on the graphics card you can go straight into the switcher. Bring your live cameras in on the other inputs. Record in camera and have each gaming station record (the streaming gaming software can do that).

Now it might also be possible to skip the viewing stations completely if the gaming software can push the gaming screen and webcam out the Hdmi port.

I'm not addressing a few things yet but tell me if my assumption is correct and if this is heading in the right direction.


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-Lance Lewis
Champion Video
www.ChampionVideoOnline.com
Neenah, WI
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SpencerSkoglund

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostTue Aug 19, 2014 9:14 am

Thank you for the reply. I think you got the general idea of what I would like to do but I have a few issues with what you list. Let me know if you have any questions about what I am saying.

Assumption 1: "The computer and overlay that need to stay in sync"
-Yes this is true we need the gameplay and camera to be synced. however we would ideally like to keep all the other stations synced with one another as well so when we drop them all on the timeline in Premier we do not have to resync all the feeds.

"If that's the case I think I have a fairly simple solution."
- I am not trying to sound mean in any way but the solution you list does not sound very simple. I explain this more bellow and I will further elaborate on how simple I am wanting.

"software like xfire or twitch tv or fraps or something along those lines."
-Each of those programs do wildly different things. However for recording we typically use Shadowplay because programs like FRAPS, BandiCam, and other software recording takes up too much processing and effects game play. Also AverMedia is a decent capture solution for capturing game play that does not slow down the machine while using. However none of those programs can record with a PiP webcam overlay. That option only seems to be available with streaming software

"Each gaming station is configured to send their gaming screen with webcam displayed as pip."
-If you know of a way to do this without streaming it to the internet and without needing to buffer the stream locally. Let me know this is an idea I was hoping was possible but haven't found something.

"This configuration so far is very standard for any gamer that wants to stream their game online."
- It is true many gamers do stream their computer online however they only stream one stream and don't cut to "other" computers quickly. The current method for switching can be done many ways. Most people have streaming software installed on all the computers and have the stream taken over by one computer or another. Another way it is done is with two capture cards in a computer and switch between them to show two computers. Allowing to change the second computer over to another while the first is being viewed. I need to be able to switch between 5-10 computers which no one has done.


"Check into gaming software that will allow you to make this setup happen. Each gaming station will stream live to what ever service/software you have selected."
- I have done a lot of searching online in Google for software that is made for this. Every peace of software is made for streaming 1 computer out to the internet. And every program I have looked at gives you the option to either "Record" OR "Stream" not both none except LiveSteam allow you to do both at the same time. The main issue here is I typically only have about 5 Mbps of upload to play with which is only good for ONE high quality stream. I nor most people in the US have the ability to upload 5-10 streams out to twitch/livestream and back. Also people like LiveStream only allow you to submit 2 streams out to the internet at any given time.

"For every gaming station you will need a separate viewing station"
- I do not have the ability in my budget to buy 5-10 more computers and makes this a complicated system to use as viewing stations to send the feeds out with to the main feed to mix in. I understand the idea and that you have and that you have an alternative idea as well. However the main issue is you can not stream more then one or two streams from one internet connection. Let alone pull them back.

"Record in camera and have each gaming station record (the streaming gaming software can do that).
- I have not found a streaming software that can record and stream at the same time. If you know of one let me know. I am concerned because doing that might take up too much CPU on the machines to play, record, and stream well.

"Now it might also be possible to skip the viewing stations completely if the gaming software can push the gaming screen and webcam out the Hdmi port."
- I have looking into a lot of software and hardware. I have not been able to find something that can do this. It would be amazing to have the ability to output the game and camera into an HDMI. But I have not found anyone who has done it. If you have any leads let me know.

Further Explanation:
The idea behind this system is to not have more then two extra computers. We would like to use our current webcams for the computers. The issue with webcams is that only one program can use them the second program can not access them. So we can only record OR stream since no program does both. Also they are USB so you can not plug them into a ATEM system. The solution that I was planning on using is a camera with HDMI or SDI as a fake webcam in place of our current and that could be put into a ATEM.

The idea is to capture the HDMI to SDI feed from the monitors using the new BenQ monitors with HDMI out. Sending those outs to the main capture computer. However that would require us to run HDMI cameras as webcams to the capture computer (unless the capture program can use the USB webcams as input devices then just run the webcams to the computer). Inside that computer it would handle the recording of the 5-10 computer feeds (the camera feeds will be recorded on the cameras) and handle the overlays and mix/cutting for the SINGLE feed we want to send out as our live stream. however that is a lot for any one computer to handle. So Computer 1 would take in all the feeds and record the needed 5-10 computer feed after adding in the PiP. Computer 1 would also still handle the cutting for the final feed however output that signal to computer 2 and use it to do the overlays and actual streaming. That way equipment all we would need is the 5-10 computers for gaming the cameras and two streaming systems.

However I don't know if that setup is possible and I can not take risk of buying and setting up all that hardware and have it not work.

There is more but I will type it another night it is very late.

Thanks again for the reply let me know if you better understand what I am trying to do.
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Chad

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 12:38 am

No matter how you slice it, what you are looking for is going to be expensive. Let's break this down into a couple of areas:

Assumption 1: During the event you want a switcher, to switch between each of the computers / consoles, and the associated camera shot of their face. The output of this assumedly would be a projector or other large screen for the audience, and a separate stream to the internet.

Assumption 2: After the event you want an ISO recording of each console / computer so you can edit a final cut of the video for later (in case you missed something during the live event).

For in room, as far as switchers go, the only Blackmagic product that will let you input that many channels (potentially 2 per gamer, PC and camera) AND let you show more than 1 computer / console at a time (what Blackmagic calls SuperSource) is the ATEM 2 M/E 4K. If you go this route, your best bet is to get a scaler for each computer / console (ie a Datavideo DAC-70 $450) which will convert it to SDI, and then plug the scaler into the output of the BenQ monitor (this will also make it easier to record the ISO feeds for later on). For face cams, that's where things get a little more tricky. The "easiest" method is to get several little SDI cameras (like the Marshall CV500-M2's) and wire them up via SDI to the ATEM and use JustMacros to link each camera to the corresponding PC / console.

If you go the software switcher route (where everything plugs into your computer instead of a hardware box). You're 2 best options would either be Wirecast ($500) or vMix 4K ($650), both come with screen capture software that will "stream" the desktop straight to the switcher software (no internet required) the downside is that won't work on consoles.

As for ISO recording, the cheapest way is either to use a pair of Decklink Quads to record 4x video feeds each on two different computers. I don't think a single computer has enough PCIe bandwidth to handle more than 4x sources each (each SDI input uses 2.8gbps of bandwidth for 1080p and 1.47gbps for 1080i/720p). Otherwise you would have to buy a separate recording device (like the Hyperdeck Shuttle $330) for each computer / console.
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SpencerSkoglund

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 7:58 am

Hey Chad,
Thanks for the reply I really do appreciate it. I have replied to what you say bellow.

"No matter how you slice it, what you are looking for is going to be expensive"
-Yes it is luckily we already have quite a bit of the hardware we need. But I figured what we are doing wouldn't necessarily be cheap.

Assumption 1:
During the event you want a switcher, to switch between each of the computers / consoles, and the associated camera shot of their face. The output of this assumedly would be a projector or other large screen for the audience, and a separate stream to the internet.
- Yes we do want to switch the feeds between all the computers keeping the faces with the computers and have our live cut go out to the internet.

Assumption 2:
After the event you want an ISO recording of each console / computer so you can edit a final cut of the video for later (in case you missed something during the live event).
-Yes exactly, I want our editor to be able to go back and have all the footage to re-edit in a different way then we live cut it. Also I would like to make it easier on him by having all the footage pre Synced.

"The only Blackmagic product that will let you input that many channels AND let you show more than 1 computer/console at a time is the ATEM 2 M/E 4K."
-Yes that was one of the switchers we were thinking. Number wise it would for sure be enough for us. And as for Super Source while good is more then what we would need all we need is a PiP. Which any ATEM with M/E can do. Which is good however I do not like the fact that I would need to make a MACRO for it to work.

"If you go this route, your best bet is to get a scaler for each computer / console (ie a Datavideo DAC-70 $450)"
- We are currently looking at the Atomos connect-ac which converts HDMI to SDI for $295 I figured we would have to convert the signal regardless to get to the ATEM or DeckLink's.

"get several little SDI cameras (like the Marshall CV500-M2's) and wire them up via SDI"
- Thanks that is a good link and I will look into it. I was trying to find something like this.

"You're 2 best options would either be Wirecast ($500) or vMix 4K ($650)"
- I have not been able to look into both of these yet but sounds and looks like a very promising lead this is very helpful thanks. I will see if this is what I am looking for software side we were half considering LiveStream Studio a bit but it is more picky about the hardware it accepts and it is $800.

"both come with screen capture software that will "stream" the desktop straight to the switcher software (no internet required) the downside is that won't work on consoles."
- This might actually be a really good solution as I said I will have to look into the software more. However all our computers already have capture cards in them and will be playing the console game from the desktop. So could work. Thanks.

"I don't think a single computer has enough PCIe bandwidth to handle more than 4x sources each (each SDI input uses 2.8gbps of bandwidth for 1080p and 1.47gbps for 1080i/720p)."
- That is a BIG question I. This is one of the things I would really like to know. On a numbers game the wiki says a PCIe X16 is 15.75 GB/s or 126 Gbps or 128 GT/s. But one of the black magic DeckLink cards with the 4 input/outputs only requires PCIe X4 so that is only a fourth of that speed (3.94 GB/Sec or 31Gbps) and that card at max capacity could handle four inputs and four outputs with that. That should mean the computer can handle four times that amount minimum. So one computer should be able to handle 16 inputs outputs... But I could be wrong I really want to know how that really works. But I think a computer should be able to handle it. If you look at LiveStream that have a system that can input 17 SDI's. However the big part is can I record those.

"Otherwise you would have to buy a separate recording device (like the Hyperdeck Shuttle $330) for each computer / console."
- Thanks for the link I will look into it however If one computer can not handle the recording I might do 2 computers. My only issue with a Hyperdeck Shuttle is not having the footage synced because of the off pace recording.


Anyways to sum that all up awesome suggestion you defiantly pointed me in the right direction for a lot of things. Thanks I will look into what you said and get back some more
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 9:41 am

http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
http://www.media-planet.sk
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Sam Jones

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 12:39 pm

what about wirecast with desktop presenter? If you are gaming on a local network, you should be able to use wirecast on a seperate computer, this way as well, you can set each computer up with desktop presenter with the game screen as the window to transmit, then use a USB webcam on each connected to the computer and captured in wirecast, Use wirecast to set each shot up with picture in picture, this way when switching between sources, it will allow the pip to be done as well. Ill give this a go in the next week or so. See how it goes.
    ATEM TVS
    ATEM Production Studio 4K
    Intensity Pro
    2 x Decklink 4K Extreme
    SDI to HDMI 4K converter
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 6:06 pm

Maybe it isn't only the bandwith of PCIe, which gives limitations. You also have to think about bandwith to your harddisks...

And does somebody know, how to record 4 signals with one software to separate harddisks ?
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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Chad

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 7:31 pm

Correct Thomas. When it comes to PCIe bandwidth you also have to remember that the same data is going back out to a hard drive over the same front-side bus. As for software that will record multiple channels at once (other than running 4 copies of Media Express side by side), Softron MovieRecorder and Renewed Vision ProVideoServer are the 2 that come to mind.

As for Picture in Picture, I was looking for a good hardware box to recommend, but they all seem to be designed for 2 computer inputs, not 1 camera + 1 computer, and seem expensive ($900 each) for what you get (the ATEM TVS is virtually the same price and is a full 6 channel video switcher with Multiviewer). Though I suppose if it gets the job done, give it a try. In addition to the TV One Pytkin linked to below there's also the Avenview Dual Screen Processor.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... essor.html
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 8:10 pm

When using a separate unit for digital effects, you will need also "something" to distribute the signals to your vision mixer and the DVE-unit (or your source has mor than one output) . So a additonal unit like the BM videohub (or some distribution amps or a mixer with AUX-outs) is needed.

But with so many inputs a 2ME is needed as mixer and so you will have DVE and Supersource.

I think, JustMacros-software for controling would be a good idea.
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostWed Aug 20, 2014 10:12 pm

Thomas : Yes .. it can work .. ATEM 2 M/E Production Studio 4K have 20 inputs .. so U can inoput 10 computers + 10 cams for players .. Supersource create PIP .. and Just mucro will switch Computer + Cam together .. But there is needed 20 HDMI to SDI converters .. Maybe any cheap model from ebay , discussed here in any topic ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
http://www.media-planet.sk
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SpencerSkoglund

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostTue Sep 09, 2014 2:17 am

Update:
We have bought:
2x Blackmagic Decklink Quad
3x Blackmagic Decklink mini Recorder

Right now we are just trying to get 5 computer feeds in and live and we are picking out the cameras for the feed to use as the web cams. Sadly the ones we want are too expensive it is the same ones that League of Legends Championships.

Thank you for all the suggestions our biggest key atm is finding a software switching program. key to it is being able to record and add a delay to the feeds so we can live edit.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostTue Sep 09, 2014 7:54 am

try vidblaster.com
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
http://www.media-planet.sk
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Matt Moon

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostTue Sep 09, 2014 1:22 pm

The people who have suggested Wirecast with Desktop Presenter are on the best solution. Each station can composite the PIP shot separately. GPU out to a separate recorder, like a Ninja, and loop out to a 2 M/E. Take switched output to a separate computer to stream (perhaps also with Wirecast if further compositing is needed). Telestream allows for you to run Wirecast on two computers so you wouldn't have to purchase it for each one. Wirecast can record and stream at the same time.
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Raf Smolak

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Re: Need Help Very Special Set Up For Live Streaming

PostSun Sep 21, 2014 3:46 pm

Ha, we went through this at the start of the year. Expect a lot of issues.

For starters, you've gone with BM Decklink Quads? I thought you required support for 1080p60, which those do not. As far as I can tell, Livestream Studio won't do 1080p60 either.

vMix is the way to go. We do gaming events and it's the software platform of choice.

Why not locally capture the camera feeds on each PC for later? If you're using consoles, that's another story.

Before you spend too much, if you aim to remain in the gaming market long-term, make sure you get 4K compatible hardware where possible. It will be very expensive otherwise, and you don't want to be limited to 1080p30 at this stage (in my opinion).

I wouldn't plan on using any more than 3 4K cards in a single machine (Dual Xeon Hex-Oct Core). 2 if you plan on streaming from that machine while capturing.

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