Video Assist SDI Audio Channels

Has anyone recorded multiple SDI embedded audio channels? I'm trying to use Video Assist to aircheck Left, Right, and Director's Track. I'm not seeing the 3rd channel when I play back in FCX. However, I'm not SURE the SDI input stream is correct. I'm working on checking that. But I just wondered if anyone else can confirm that the multiple audio channels are recording successfully in your Video Assist.

Joey Helleny

[Tony Rivera]

According to the tech spec page, SDI audio input supports up to 16 channels of embedded audio and the HDMI input supports 2.

According to the tech spec page, SDI audio input supports up to 16 channels of embedded audio and the HDMI input supports 2.

Apparently, Blackmagic could NOT deliver!
At least my unit cannot record more than 2 channels!

But on the BM website, those specs have already been changed.

However, if you google for the BM Video Assist, you will find plenty of sites (even well known onlineshops like B&H, TELTEC, BPM-MEDIA, etc), which state that it should be able to record up to "16 channels embedded in SD and HD in QuickTime files"
B&H even have the old manual online, which confirms this!

Don't even ask me what the guys at NAB told me, that the unit would be able to do...

Very disappointing!!

[Tony Rivera]

This is something being looked into but I do not have a timeframe at this time.

The only external video recorder I know of, that has true multi-channel audio support that really works, and is easy to use, are the Video Devices Pix recorders. This is one of the major reasons I got one, to have a full video-sync full multi-channel audio recorder, that can take two channels of SDI/HDMI embedded audio and add additional external audio signals to additional assignable audio tracks on the recorder. It also supports multi-channel embedded SDI audio tracks up to 16 channels. Or any combo of embedded and external Audio inputs.

I hope BM can at least add the ability to have at least two-four embedded audio tacks and add the two external audio inputs to assignable tracks, so you,could,have two tracks,from the camera embedded in the SDI/HDMI signal, and add two more tracks from the 1/8-inch stereo external input, this would give you at least 4-useable audio tracks, sync'd with the video recording.

This is something being looked into but I do not have a timeframe at this time.

Thanks for the info, Tony!

You might want to forward this to the people in charge of communication with your dealers, so that those amend the descriptions on their websites. Otherwise maybe more people end up buying the unit because of this false informtion.

I can only hope that this can be solved via software update anytime soon... otherwise the Video Assist is rathter useless for my purpose!

Will have to look into Atomos and Video Devices units in the meantime...

Any update in that matter?
Is there a timeframe for this promised feature yet...?

How very typical.

User asks question about advertised feature that doesn't work.
Forum mod provides incorrect answer based on black magic marketing specs which are fanciful lies.
User challenges this assertion.
Forum mod says, "whoops, turns out you're right, that feature we advertised doesn't exist. Our company has been caught lying again. I'll look into it." and is never heard from again

That is not entirely true, BM fixed the lack of TC out on the Production camera in a recent FW update. SDI does support 16-channels of audio, but BM implementation of how it is supported is not well documented. Two channels 12 and another one, are used by ATEM for talkback communications, so probably not going to be available for recording audio tracks. Have you tried to record multi-channel audio from a mixer into the Video Assist via SDI? HDMI has always been listed on BM devices and only having two channels,of audio support. This is in VA 5-inch manual. Marketing department sales information, unfortunately is either ambitious or sometimes incorrect, due to bad add copy writing/editing.
DS

[Tony Rivera]

This was something hoping to be implemented for the Video Assist however at this time, is still being looked into. We have since my last post on this thread, corrected the tech spec page to reflect what the capabilities of the unit are. If this request can be accomplished, we will update the information on the website when it becomes available.

Thanks Tony for clearing this up. I never tried recording more than two channels anyway on the VA.
Since currently, only 2-channels are being supported on both VAs, the 4K can only record from the Mic in or the 1/8-inch stereo line in? Or does it mix both inputs into 2-channels? Thanks again.
Cheers

This is something being looked into but I do not have a timeframe at this time.

Tony, this issue came to my attention recently as well. Just for the record, here in the UK we have a "Trades Descriptions Act" which compels suppliers to deliver products that conform to the promised specifications and operational features. I'm sure Australia and other countries have similar legislation. Our Trading Standards Offices take complaints about this kind of thing very seriously.

A similar incidence occurred with the Video Assist, which for a long time was promising DNxHD recording even though it could only record ProRes422. I know of two would-be buyers who, on realising this, switch to alternative brands.

It's something that Blackmagic's product marketing team really needs to look at - i.e.: do an audit of product claims both on BM's own website and that of official distributors. It's very misleading - and potentially unlawful.

Agreed Colin.
Advertising products as having feature that they don't, and then, after countless people have coughed up their hard earned cash, simply saying, "oh yeah, by the way, lots of that stuff we said was bull$***, but now we have your cash we'll revert to only claim things our device can actually do" is not good enough.
And BMD has a dirty dirty history of this deception and lies over and over and over on product after product.

If I bought a Ferrari, because Ferrari told me it would do 0-200 in 6 seconds, and then after I bought it Ferrari changed their marketing material to admit that it actually had a top speed of 55mph, would that be fair?
Because that's exactly how BMD treats their customers.
Your longest customers know not to trust a single word from you, and the only people who give honest information on BMD products are other users on this and other forums.

[Tony Rivera]

Thanks Tony for clearing this up. I never tried recording more than two channels anyway on the VA.
Since currently, only 2-channels are being supported on both VAs, the 4K can only record from the Mic in or the 1/8-inch stereo line in? Or does it mix both inputs into 2-channels? Thanks again.
Cheers

Audio ingest is only done through the mini-XLR inputs or the embedded feed.

[Tony Rivera]

...with the Video Assist, which for a long time was promising DNxHD recording even though it could only record ProRes422...

The DNxHD was something we had hoped to include at the time of the product shipping but was incorporated within the next few updates.

I do not think this was intentional on BM's part, more of an oversight issue (still should have been fixed at time of release, however) of marketing getting a,product specification from engineering, based on the product goal. Things like DNxHD missing, was a case of getting priduct out before it was finished, with a "public "beta" release, and DNxHD was added later. Many of the cameras had DNxHD added after release too.

I think the audio 16-channel in SDI is a carry over specification from the Hyperdecks, may have been part of the VA engineering spec., that did not make it through the pipeline, and this should have been known at the time of release, and the "Marketing info" changed when the product was released. The Manual and box, on the other hand, do not indicate what the audio recording capabilities are in the VA 5 manual, and the new VA4K manual states you have "Two" channels of supported audio, which can be split between the Mic/line input, HDMI and SDI inputs, (i.e.one Chanel from mic in, and one channel from either SDI or HDMI input (nice,feature). No other audio claims are made.

What you can get BM for I s "truth in advertising" If you can prove they "knowingly" made "false claims" they know that we're Not or,they had no intention of delivering." And good luck with that suit.

Personnaly, I never expected more than two channels of supported audio, same with the Hyoerdeck Shuttle or the VA. You get metering for two channels of audio, this is what you get. But, that said, at,least it is two channels of "clean" sounding audio! That is more important to me.

If you want a true multi-track audio recording in a video recorder, you are going to have to,spend the extra money for something like the Video Devices (Sound Devices) Pix recorders, which do support more than two channels of audio, the PixE has 4-channels HDMI, 8-channels SDI with two additional line (and Mic with RA preamps added), which you can control level and track assignment on through the audio menu. This costs 3x the price of a VA, however.
Case Closed, next...
Cheers.

P.S., for anyone interested, I have a Pix 220 (HDMI) (6-channels of audio) recorder kit available -- pm me for details

Thanks Tony for clearing this up. I never tried recording more than two channels anyway on the VA.
Since currently, only 2-channels are being supported on both VAs, the 4K can only record from the Mic in or the 1/8-inch stereo line in? Or does it mix both inputs into 2-channels? Thanks again.
Cheers

Audio ingest is only done through the mini-XLR inputs or the embedded feed.

Thanks Tony, thought this was the case after reviewing the new VA manual.
Cheers

This has not been cleared up at all. 4 hours ago, on April 4th 2018, I was in a Canadian camera shop in Toronto, DV Shop. I was Specially trying to find a four channel solution. I was showed the Ninja and the Shogun. Then I was showed the BM 4K video assist. The owner, and I must say I would assume the same, assumed that the XLR inputs would provide two addition audio tracks. I was almost screwed again. In fact out of 4 black Magic products I have purchased only one ever worked as I expected. Luckily during the demo I was sceptical. I could only see two channels of audio but with the Atomos products I could see 4 tracks. BM half builds products, releases them and moves on. Everyone else seems to be able to place more than 2 audio tracks in an SDI video signal.

Nowhere in does BM state the product specifications, the Vide Assist records more than two channels of audio. The store clerk who was showing you a BM VA4K and indicating it could was giving out miss information, not BM. I always check the spec sheet.
Cheers

Denny, to be fair, that information is currently not stating more than two channels, but it has in the past. It was originally supposed to do more, and the specs stated so. Yes, that info is now out of date, but a lot of businesses have outdated info. A retraction of the specs on BM's part is just more of the "making promises you can't keep" mentality that BM is famous for, and less of an issue of vendors passing out misinformation.

Is that how you are supposed to do things? Whenever your equipment doesn't live up to the specs, you simply change the specs?

[Tony Rivera]

At one point, there had been a mention of supporting more than 2 channels of audio via SDI but that has been corrected on the tech spec page as mentioned by Scott. The intent was to always support 2 channels however, this was not conveyed on the tech spec page and thus, the update to the current information available there.

Tony, i just feel the point needs to be addressed that Blackmagic has a reputation. Some of the reputation is really good - like that generally, the quality of the product for the price is amazing. But the negative side is a reputation for unkept promises and not fixing long-standing problems. It is something you should work on. It erodes your brand.

I asked BM when the VA4K first came out, if it could support more than one input source or more than two channels of total audio, and was told then, no, only two channels of audio and only one source at a time.
Rumors were going around if it could record the impeded HDMI/SDI audio and inputs from the XLRs at the same time. I asked, and BM responded no. Except for the rumors and the poorly worded initial product description in the marketing info which was corrected, I fail to see how anyone today (two years later) why anyone would think otherwise. I am not defending BM, but all the current info on the VA stares two channels of audio support. Rumors or inferred capabilities are not specifications.

A sales representative is supposed to “Know” the capabilities of the products they sell, and what its limitations are. When I worked for a short time in photographic and A/V sales, we tested each product we sold, and knew what a piece of equipment could and could not do. I see no excuse for the sales rep pulling down a VA4K when the client asked for a 4-channel audio recording capability. He should have shown him the Atomos recorders (he did show) and a PixE Monitor/recorder, which do have multi-channel audio recording capabilities.
Cheers.

According to the tech spec page, SDI audio input supports up to 16 channels of embedded audio and the HDMI input supports 2.

Just sayin.....

It is amazing, I think the word "or" has left the English language. BM is not the only company purposely writing ambiguous statements about their products. The practice of purposely not including something that is technically easy and inexpensive is a mystery to me. You would thing happy customers would be the goal.

Come on Scott, that quote is more than two years old, and Tony was quoting the SDI audio stream limit standards, that have long been corrected to show what the VA can do, not what is possible. He correct d this statement several month later, in this very thread. The on,y valid argument is BM listed an incorrect fact in the specification sheet, which was quickly corrected. So yes, BM needs to proof read its product info and spec sheets on new gear more carefully. But nowhere in the original product description was any reference that the VA could record more than two channels of audio. This info was not given, only that it had HDMI and SDI imbedded audio, and direct XLR audio inputs, which prompted my original inquiry two years ago. Time to give this one a rest.

The current tech specifications clearly state SDI 2-channels of audio supported, HDMI 2-Channles of audio supported, and have done for the last two years. Going back a quoting the original tech writers error, which has been already acknowledged is a bit of a stretch.
Cheers