HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

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Fayyaz Ahmed

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HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 10:03 pm

Hi,

I have setup as follow.

Camera : Canon LEGARIA HF G40.
Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD.
Hyperdeck Studio mini.
Blackmagic Web Presenter.

I have connected my camera to ATEM Television Studio HD using HDMI cable.
Video Format is 1080p50.

Television Studio connected to Hyperdeck mini.
Hyperdeck mini connected to web presenter.

I can see the video on ATEM TV Studio, on Hyperdeck mini and web presenter.
Works fine.. (√)


But as soon as I connect camera's HDMI to Blackmagic micro converter and SDI to TV studio, there is no video signal.

Tried following.

1. Tried different HD-SDI cables.
2. Downloaded and installed converter software 7.0.1, when open/run this, it simply show message "No converter found".
3. Tried different video formats but cannot see a true picture, for some format it shows "ghost" picture.
4. Searched online but have not found any solution or problem like this.

Please if any one can help and advise that will be great help.

Kind Regards,
Fayyaz
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon Mar 06, 2017 9:41 pm

--Just an update--

If I connect my canon GH4 camera via HDMI->Micro-Filter->HD-SDI cable I can see video signal. If I connect same cable to LEGERIA HF G40 camera it start working and can see signal coming through to TV studio., no setting changed in HF40.

If I switch off everything, swicth back on and connect LEGERIA HF G40 no signal.
Connect GH4, disconnect GH4 and connect LEGERIA HF G40, video signal start coming.

I am confused... :(
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 1:47 am

Sounds like the Legeria camera is having an issue establishing a signal link at the start (handshaking), but one the GH4 set a signal, then it works. Interesting problem, I have not clue behind this.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Hakan Taube Lyxzen

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 6:34 am

I think that the problem are that the Legeria doesnt have a set output format when connecting thru hdmi.
When connecting after the other camera the converter doesnt change the format the first camera had, 1080p50, and the Legeria are therefore sending the same.
When connecting after power down the converter ask the camera, whats your highest format, and the camera responds by sending 1080p60.
Test this by switching the mixer to 1080p60 and you should be able to see the camera.
There are ways to fix this problem. One cound be if the camera can be set to 1080p50 in the menu. Another to put a box inbetween the camera and converter that sets the format to 1080p50.
Hakan Taube Lyxzen
prostreaming.se
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 11:07 am

Thanks @Denny Smith for your kind reply.
Thnaks @ Hakan Taube Lyxzen for your reply, just to update you. When I connect LEGERIA HF40 using HDMI cable it works fine. Only problem comes when I use micro converter with HD-SDI cable.

My wild guess is its micro converter but again it is just a guess :(.
G40 does support 1920x1080 50p see below, what I am using (MP4, 1920x1080 35Mbps).

AVCHD
1920x1080 50p 28Mbps
1920x1080 50i/25p 24Mbps 17Mbps
1440x1080 50i/25p 5Mbps
MP4
1920x1080 50p 35Mbps
1920x1080 25p 24Mbps, 17Mbps
1280x720 25p 4Mbps
640x360 25p 3Mbps

Kind Regards
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 5:16 pm

I think Hakan has something with the camera setting 1080p60 in the handshake with the Micro converter, which in turn is sending out 1080p60, thus no image with the TVS, whichmismset to 1080p50.
Try his suggestion, and set the Switcher to 1080p60 and see if this works, with the camera /converter combo to the TVS. Another user is having similar issues with these Canon cameras with a DeckLink card.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Andreas Fiebig

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 9:53 am

@Fayyaz
I have response from Canon. The Canon HF G30/40 definitely outputs 1080p50 over HDMI when camera is set to 1080p.

I also tried it with liqoo HDMI-SDI converters and had also no luck. Same problem.
I don't think that the BMD converters are the problem. More a combination of this hardware I guess?

Andreas.
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 11, 2017 7:11 pm

Thanks Andreas,

Canon HF G40 works fine when connected to Blackmagic TV Studio HD using HDMI cable for HDMI output 1080p50,720p50 or HDMI output 1080i50.

When connected to Blackmagic TV Studio HD using BM micro Converter ->HD-SDI cable only works for720p50, 1080i50 but "do not work" for 1080p50.

I really spent time with many options but don't understand why it only not working with 1080p50:(.
==update==
Connected SDI to HDMI converter it works fine.

All setup as below.
"HF G40 Camera" -> "HDMI cable" -> "BM HDMI to SDI converter" -> "HD-SDI cable" -> "BM SDI to HDMI converter" -> "HDMI Cable" -> "ATEM TV Studio HD"
Last edited by Fayyaz Ahmed on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Andreas Fiebig

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 11, 2017 7:36 pm

That's strange.
But it should be a proof that the camera definitely outputs 1080p50.
I still have no feedback from Blackmagic. My support request is one week old.
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 1:29 am

It's great when a plan comes together :!: Glad you worked it out, and yes, the camera (PAL model) apparently does output 1080p50, and came up with a working solution.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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HannanCade

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 8:30 am

I have a similar issue
I have Canon Legria 606 and 77 cameras.
I have a web presenter and video assist, plugging one camera into HDMI in on Webpresenter, and using the other into the HDMI to SDI micro-converter, and then SDI into SDI in on the webpresenter, and SDI out into SDI in on the Video Assist to record.

HDMI in works fine, SDI in does not. I get a messed up signal, and on the video assist it goes bonkers with changing Source from None to SDI, 1080p25 to 1080p50 to 1080i, and the record button on and of and on and off.. constantly every hundredth second.

Changed HDMI cables, changed SDI cables, same thing. Changed cameras same thing. I didnt understand as the camera outputs at 1080p which the microconverter should be fine with. I then tried without going through the web presenter and just went from Canon Legria to HDMI to SDI converter into Video asssit, and it worked fine.

So the Micro-converter works fine, but seems when I plug SDI and HDMI into the Web presenter it goes bonkers.

Any Ideas?
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 12:08 pm

@Denny Smith, you are right but don't you think it is not a good solution as I have to use two micro converters (a. HDMI to SDI converter. b. SDI to HDMI converter ) ?
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 5:24 pm

Perhaps, not the best, but it works. I have used a Canon XL2s (SD) with the Mini converter analog to SDI, To a switcher, and that worked very well. You are not the only one having issues trying to use this camera with a switcher, seems the issue is more to do with how the camera creates its output, and the BM converters are not playing well with it? :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 6:50 pm

Denny Smith wrote: I have used a Canon XL2s (SD) with the Mini converter analog to SDI,

Denny, 1998 just called.. They want to have their XL2 back :lol: :lol:

Wow that brings up old memories.. Have used XL1's XL2's way in the past..
Using Canon XH-A1 and XH-G1s still sometimes.. The G1s is direct SDI out.. :D From a long and almost forgotten HDV tape time.. :lol: :D

End of going offtopic but Thanks you for going back memory lane :P
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 7:14 pm

Yes, went from the XL1/2 to an XLH1a, with SDI out, so no no more converter required! All gone now, back to 1998/2004 :!:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Andreas Fiebig

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 10:42 am

Hei guys,

In my opinion that's no solution if you must use multiple converters to convert between standards unnecessarily to get a single camera to run.
The question is, what does that mean if it works this way?
And how could BMD help to get this setup working without using a ton of their converters.
Because the cam works on other devices well in 1080p50.

I now have a feedback from BMD, but still no concrete help.

I let you know.

Andreas.
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 8:55 pm

Thanks. Another issue, is the HDMI cable a new high bandwidth cable (needed for 1080p50) or an older cable? I had a AF100A whichmwould output a 1080p50/60 signal, but my Video Assist was not receiving it. Turned out, the "new" Cineroid HDMI cable was an older low bandwidth cable, and would not pass the higher bandwidth 1080p60 signal. Got a new HDMI csble, at it worked fine. Try checking your HDMI cables, the converter might not like the HDMI cable from the camera? But this is definitely an odd situation where HDMI converted feeds are working, but not the SDI. :?:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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rony albert

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 1:09 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Thanks. Another issue, is the HDMI cable a new high bandwidth cable (needed for 1080p50) or an older cable? I had a AF100A whichmwould output a 1080p50/60 signal, but my Video Assist was not receiving it. Turned out, the "new" Cineroid HDMI cable was an older low bandwidth cable, and would not pass the higher bandwidth 1080p60 signal. Got a new HDMI csble, at it worked fine. Try checking your HDMI cables, the converter might not like the HDMI cable from the camera? But this is definitely an odd situation where HDMI converted feeds are working, but not the SDI. :?:
Cheers


In market there are now all in one converter available that are suitable to all ports with any bandwidth. You can also check it on amazon online store for online delivery.
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 26, 2017 9:36 pm

Good idea, but BM does not recommend using a USB Hub when updating cameras and equipment firmware. A direct cable connection is required.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed Mar 29, 2017 9:06 am

I also got stuck with the Canon Legria G40, set to 1080p50 :(
It definitely also outputs 1080p50 on the HDMI connector.

But I found out that the Micro Converter behaves strange (or funny) when generating an 3G-Stream from HDMI input.

There are two levels, A and B_DL.
(Check Wikipedia, there are actually three)

Test procedure:
1. After powering up the converter, I connected the camera, and the converter outputs 3G level A (3GA). But, as my Televison studio HD generates, works, runs and only seem to accept the level 3GB_DL, the camera input stays black.
2. After that, I connected another device (I tried a SAT receiver and also the Multiview output of the BM Televison Studio) to the HDMI input, and the converter streams a 3G B_DL signal on the SDI output.
3. After that, I plugged the camara to the HDMI input again (without deconnecting the converters power supply), and now - black magic - it converts the camaras HDMI into an nice 3GB_DL signal which the Television Studio HD (set to 1080p50) accepts and processes w/o any problems.

The converters are set to B_DL per default (I checked that with the BM software update 7.0.7 I downloaded). If I set the converter to 3GA, it always produces that, what ever I connect to the HDMI.

In my understanding, the HDMI signal does not carry anything that should have an influence on what the converter does on its output.

The above problem disappears, when you take a second (opposite) converter (SDI to HDMI), as the second one also accepts the 3G level A and outputs the original 1080p50 as expected. But thats not the idea as the Televison Studio HD has 4 SDI inputs also.

I suspect a firmware bug in the converter, that generates a problem after powering up and/or handshaking with the camera when that is turned on or plugged in. As the converter sticks to 3GB_DL after getting "triggered to B_DL" by another HDMI source, I doubt that the camera is the problem, but I dont have a HDMI interface analysator. But BM should have such an expensive thing. And they should be able to find the problem in the converters firmware.

I sent a support mail to BM :geek: and hope to get a answer soon.
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Philipp Klaus

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 12:19 pm

I experienced the same problem with the micro converter. HDMI signal coming in at 1080p50 from a Canon Legria HF G40, SDI Output is working whem I am connecting a third party SDI->HDMI converter at the end of the signal chain to get the camera feed into the ATEM Television Studio HD. Directly hooking up the cameras HDMI to the switcher also works fine, just the SDI output of the Micro converter does not work, going into the switcher directly. So exactly the same proble as mentioned above.

720p50 works fine, 1080i works, but 1080p50 is the problem.
Philipp Klaus
www.philippklaus.com
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 4:22 pm

Ah, sounds like a possible SDI cable bandwidth issue, what,kind of csble are you using and how long a run?
DS
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 5:11 pm

Don't think so, if you are using the second (opposite) converter from SDI to HDMI it works. If you take a second cable - in parallel - and connect that to an SDI input, that one does not work. Its a SDI Stream level problem. After power up, the first converter selects the wrong Stream level (even its the same 3G bandwidth). More on this see my previous post.
Btw: It was a 5m SDI cable only.
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Philipp Klaus

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 8:21 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Ah, sounds like a possible SDI cable bandwidth issue, what,kind of csble are you using and how long a run?
DS


Hi, thanks for your reply, but unfortunately I doubt, thats a cable issue. No matter, if I am using 1m, 10m, 50m or100m cable runs, it works when converting the SDIback to HDMI and then feeding it to the ATEM. Cables are high quality cables from Belden (1505F, recommended by my reseller) and Sommer, that shouldn't have a problem carring the 3GB/s signal and work just fine.

Any updates from the others here suffering by this possible (firmware) issue?
Philipp Klaus
www.philippklaus.com
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Apr 02, 2017 10:37 am

No Denny.. This is a Classical Level A vs Level B ;) it all works but on 3G it does not..

I don't have a micro converter with me right now.. Otherwise i could check if you can set this from the software panel..

I know the semtech chipset inside the Micro has the ability to do a A to B or B to A conversion inside. But it's all about what it gets controlled to do so..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Apr 02, 2017 4:27 pm

Thanks Daniel, I understand what you are saying. The cable was just a thought, that caused a similar problem for me previously. The SDI A/B is a classical issue with BM gear. Everything needs to match, or you seem get issues like this.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions

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