HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

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Fayyaz Ahmed

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HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 10:03 pm

Hi,

I have setup as follow.

Camera : Canon LEGARIA HF G40.
Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD.
Hyperdeck Studio mini.
Blackmagic Web Presenter.

I have connected my camera to ATEM Television Studio HD using HDMI cable.
Video Format is 1080p50.

Television Studio connected to Hyperdeck mini.
Hyperdeck mini connected to web presenter.

I can see the video on ATEM TV Studio, on Hyperdeck mini and web presenter.
Works fine.. (√)


But as soon as I connect camera's HDMI to Blackmagic micro converter and SDI to TV studio, there is no video signal.

Tried following.

1. Tried different HD-SDI cables.
2. Downloaded and installed converter software 7.0.1, when open/run this, it simply show message "No converter found".
3. Tried different video formats but cannot see a true picture, for some format it shows "ghost" picture.
4. Searched online but have not found any solution or problem like this.

Please if any one can help and advise that will be great help.

Kind Regards,
Fayyaz
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon Mar 06, 2017 9:41 pm

--Just an update--

If I connect my canon GH4 camera via HDMI->Micro-Filter->HD-SDI cable I can see video signal. If I connect same cable to LEGERIA HF G40 camera it start working and can see signal coming through to TV studio., no setting changed in HF40.

If I switch off everything, swicth back on and connect LEGERIA HF G40 no signal.
Connect GH4, disconnect GH4 and connect LEGERIA HF G40, video signal start coming.

I am confused... :(
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 1:47 am

Sounds like the Legeria camera is having an issue establishing a signal link at the start (handshaking), but one the GH4 set a signal, then it works. Interesting problem, I have not clue behind this.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Hakan Taube Lyxzen

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 6:34 am

I think that the problem are that the Legeria doesnt have a set output format when connecting thru hdmi.
When connecting after the other camera the converter doesnt change the format the first camera had, 1080p50, and the Legeria are therefore sending the same.
When connecting after power down the converter ask the camera, whats your highest format, and the camera responds by sending 1080p60.
Test this by switching the mixer to 1080p60 and you should be able to see the camera.
There are ways to fix this problem. One cound be if the camera can be set to 1080p50 in the menu. Another to put a box inbetween the camera and converter that sets the format to 1080p50.
Hakan Taube Lyxzen
prostreaming.se
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 11:07 am

Thanks @Denny Smith for your kind reply.
Thnaks @ Hakan Taube Lyxzen for your reply, just to update you. When I connect LEGERIA HF40 using HDMI cable it works fine. Only problem comes when I use micro converter with HD-SDI cable.

My wild guess is its micro converter but again it is just a guess :(.
G40 does support 1920x1080 50p see below, what I am using (MP4, 1920x1080 35Mbps).

AVCHD
1920x1080 50p 28Mbps
1920x1080 50i/25p 24Mbps 17Mbps
1440x1080 50i/25p 5Mbps
MP4
1920x1080 50p 35Mbps
1920x1080 25p 24Mbps, 17Mbps
1280x720 25p 4Mbps
640x360 25p 3Mbps

Kind Regards
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 5:16 pm

I think Hakan has something with the camera setting 1080p60 in the handshake with the Micro converter, which in turn is sending out 1080p60, thus no image with the TVS, whichmismset to 1080p50.
Try his suggestion, and set the Switcher to 1080p60 and see if this works, with the camera /converter combo to the TVS. Another user is having similar issues with these Canon cameras with a DeckLink card.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Andreas Fiebig

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 9:53 am

@Fayyaz
I have response from Canon. The Canon HF G30/40 definitely outputs 1080p50 over HDMI when camera is set to 1080p.

I also tried it with liqoo HDMI-SDI converters and had also no luck. Same problem.
I don't think that the BMD converters are the problem. More a combination of this hardware I guess?

Andreas.
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 11, 2017 7:11 pm

Thanks Andreas,

Canon HF G40 works fine when connected to Blackmagic TV Studio HD using HDMI cable for HDMI output 1080p50,720p50 or HDMI output 1080i50.

When connected to Blackmagic TV Studio HD using BM micro Converter ->HD-SDI cable only works for720p50, 1080i50 but "do not work" for 1080p50.

I really spent time with many options but don't understand why it only not working with 1080p50:(.
==update==
Connected SDI to HDMI converter it works fine.

All setup as below.
"HF G40 Camera" -> "HDMI cable" -> "BM HDMI to SDI converter" -> "HD-SDI cable" -> "BM SDI to HDMI converter" -> "HDMI Cable" -> "ATEM TV Studio HD"
Last edited by Fayyaz Ahmed on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Andreas Fiebig

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 11, 2017 7:36 pm

That's strange.
But it should be a proof that the camera definitely outputs 1080p50.
I still have no feedback from Blackmagic. My support request is one week old.
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 1:29 am

It's great when a plan comes together :!: Glad you worked it out, and yes, the camera (PAL model) apparently does output 1080p50, and came up with a working solution.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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HannanCade

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 8:30 am

I have a similar issue
I have Canon Legria 606 and 77 cameras.
I have a web presenter and video assist, plugging one camera into HDMI in on Webpresenter, and using the other into the HDMI to SDI micro-converter, and then SDI into SDI in on the webpresenter, and SDI out into SDI in on the Video Assist to record.

HDMI in works fine, SDI in does not. I get a messed up signal, and on the video assist it goes bonkers with changing Source from None to SDI, 1080p25 to 1080p50 to 1080i, and the record button on and of and on and off.. constantly every hundredth second.

Changed HDMI cables, changed SDI cables, same thing. Changed cameras same thing. I didnt understand as the camera outputs at 1080p which the microconverter should be fine with. I then tried without going through the web presenter and just went from Canon Legria to HDMI to SDI converter into Video asssit, and it worked fine.

So the Micro-converter works fine, but seems when I plug SDI and HDMI into the Web presenter it goes bonkers.

Any Ideas?
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Fayyaz Ahmed

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 12:08 pm

@Denny Smith, you are right but don't you think it is not a good solution as I have to use two micro converters (a. HDMI to SDI converter. b. SDI to HDMI converter ) ?
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 5:24 pm

Perhaps, not the best, but it works. I have used a Canon XL2s (SD) with the Mini converter analog to SDI, To a switcher, and that worked very well. You are not the only one having issues trying to use this camera with a switcher, seems the issue is more to do with how the camera creates its output, and the BM converters are not playing well with it? :mrgreen:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 6:50 pm

Denny Smith wrote: I have used a Canon XL2s (SD) with the Mini converter analog to SDI,

Denny, 1998 just called.. They want to have their XL2 back :lol: :lol:

Wow that brings up old memories.. Have used XL1's XL2's way in the past..
Using Canon XH-A1 and XH-G1s still sometimes.. The G1s is direct SDI out.. :D From a long and almost forgotten HDV tape time.. :lol: :D

End of going offtopic but Thanks you for going back memory lane :P
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 12, 2017 7:14 pm

Yes, went from the XL1/2 to an XLH1a, with SDI out, so no no more converter required! All gone now, back to 1998/2004 :!:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Andreas Fiebig

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 10:42 am

Hei guys,

In my opinion that's no solution if you must use multiple converters to convert between standards unnecessarily to get a single camera to run.
The question is, what does that mean if it works this way?
And how could BMD help to get this setup working without using a ton of their converters.
Because the cam works on other devices well in 1080p50.

I now have a feedback from BMD, but still no concrete help.

I let you know.

Andreas.
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 8:55 pm

Thanks. Another issue, is the HDMI cable a new high bandwidth cable (needed for 1080p50) or an older cable? I had a AF100A whichmwould output a 1080p50/60 signal, but my Video Assist was not receiving it. Turned out, the "new" Cineroid HDMI cable was an older low bandwidth cable, and would not pass the higher bandwidth 1080p60 signal. Got a new HDMI csble, at it worked fine. Try checking your HDMI cables, the converter might not like the HDMI cable from the camera? But this is definitely an odd situation where HDMI converted feeds are working, but not the SDI. :?:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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rony albert

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 1:09 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Thanks. Another issue, is the HDMI cable a new high bandwidth cable (needed for 1080p50) or an older cable? I had a AF100A whichmwould output a 1080p50/60 signal, but my Video Assist was not receiving it. Turned out, the "new" Cineroid HDMI cable was an older low bandwidth cable, and would not pass the higher bandwidth 1080p60 signal. Got a new HDMI csble, at it worked fine. Try checking your HDMI cables, the converter might not like the HDMI cable from the camera? But this is definitely an odd situation where HDMI converted feeds are working, but not the SDI. :?:
Cheers


In market there are now all in one converter available that are suitable to all ports with any bandwidth. You can also check it on amazon online store for online delivery.
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Mar 26, 2017 9:36 pm

Good idea, but BM does not recommend using a USB Hub when updating cameras and equipment firmware. A direct cable connection is required.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed Mar 29, 2017 9:06 am

I also got stuck with the Canon Legria G40, set to 1080p50 :(
It definitely also outputs 1080p50 on the HDMI connector.

But I found out that the Micro Converter behaves strange (or funny) when generating an 3G-Stream from HDMI input.

There are two levels, A and B_DL.
(Check Wikipedia, there are actually three)

Test procedure:
1. After powering up the converter, I connected the camera, and the converter outputs 3G level A (3GA). But, as my Televison studio HD generates, works, runs and only seem to accept the level 3GB_DL, the camera input stays black.
2. After that, I connected another device (I tried a SAT receiver and also the Multiview output of the BM Televison Studio) to the HDMI input, and the converter streams a 3G B_DL signal on the SDI output.
3. After that, I plugged the camara to the HDMI input again (without deconnecting the converters power supply), and now - black magic - it converts the camaras HDMI into an nice 3GB_DL signal which the Television Studio HD (set to 1080p50) accepts and processes w/o any problems.

The converters are set to B_DL per default (I checked that with the BM software update 7.0.7 I downloaded). If I set the converter to 3GA, it always produces that, what ever I connect to the HDMI.

In my understanding, the HDMI signal does not carry anything that should have an influence on what the converter does on its output.

The above problem disappears, when you take a second (opposite) converter (SDI to HDMI), as the second one also accepts the 3G level A and outputs the original 1080p50 as expected. But thats not the idea as the Televison Studio HD has 4 SDI inputs also.

I suspect a firmware bug in the converter, that generates a problem after powering up and/or handshaking with the camera when that is turned on or plugged in. As the converter sticks to 3GB_DL after getting "triggered to B_DL" by another HDMI source, I doubt that the camera is the problem, but I dont have a HDMI interface analysator. But BM should have such an expensive thing. And they should be able to find the problem in the converters firmware.

I sent a support mail to BM :geek: and hope to get a answer soon.
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Philipp Klaus

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Mar 31, 2017 12:19 pm

I experienced the same problem with the micro converter. HDMI signal coming in at 1080p50 from a Canon Legria HF G40, SDI Output is working whem I am connecting a third party SDI->HDMI converter at the end of the signal chain to get the camera feed into the ATEM Television Studio HD. Directly hooking up the cameras HDMI to the switcher also works fine, just the SDI output of the Micro converter does not work, going into the switcher directly. So exactly the same proble as mentioned above.

720p50 works fine, 1080i works, but 1080p50 is the problem.
Philipp Klaus
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 4:22 pm

Ah, sounds like a possible SDI cable bandwidth issue, what,kind of csble are you using and how long a run?
DS
Denny Smith
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 5:11 pm

Don't think so, if you are using the second (opposite) converter from SDI to HDMI it works. If you take a second cable - in parallel - and connect that to an SDI input, that one does not work. Its a SDI Stream level problem. After power up, the first converter selects the wrong Stream level (even its the same 3G bandwidth). More on this see my previous post.
Btw: It was a 5m SDI cable only.
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Philipp Klaus

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 8:21 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Ah, sounds like a possible SDI cable bandwidth issue, what,kind of csble are you using and how long a run?
DS


Hi, thanks for your reply, but unfortunately I doubt, thats a cable issue. No matter, if I am using 1m, 10m, 50m or100m cable runs, it works when converting the SDIback to HDMI and then feeding it to the ATEM. Cables are high quality cables from Belden (1505F, recommended by my reseller) and Sommer, that shouldn't have a problem carring the 3GB/s signal and work just fine.

Any updates from the others here suffering by this possible (firmware) issue?
Philipp Klaus
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Apr 02, 2017 10:37 am

No Denny.. This is a Classical Level A vs Level B ;) it all works but on 3G it does not..

I don't have a micro converter with me right now.. Otherwise i could check if you can set this from the software panel..

I know the semtech chipset inside the Micro has the ability to do a A to B or B to A conversion inside. But it's all about what it gets controlled to do so..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Denny Smith

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun Apr 02, 2017 4:27 pm

Thanks Daniel, I understand what you are saying. The cable was just a thought, that caused a similar problem for me previously. The SDI A/B is a classical issue with BM gear. Everything needs to match, or you seem get issues like this.
Cheers
Denny Smith
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon May 01, 2017 7:31 pm

Hi,

As far as I know, this is a combination of two problems:

1. Blackmagic requires SMPTE 352M Payload ID on 3G-SDI signals to work.
2. Blackmagic's HDMI-to-SDI converters do not always correctly output a SMPTE 352M Payload ID; it seems to be related to something about the HDMI handshake.

(I've verified both points with a Phabrix SDI analyzer.)

It's got nothing to do with level A versus level B, from what I know. The reason why you can get it to work if you plug in another device first is that the converter remembers the payload ID from earlier (it doesn't reset it when switching device, unless said device manages to generate a new payload ID).

I've talked to support about this, but they insist that nobody else has reported the problem (obviously they didn't read their own forums before claiming that), and thus it must be something about “my workflow” that is wrong. This has been two months now, so I hope someone with more clout than me can contact them and shout a bit.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon May 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Hello Steinar

If this is a p50-Problem, and if BM does not read their forums anyway, we could switch to German for conversation :lol:

I have a ticket open since 4 weeks or so, If I send another mail, I also get a reply from them that they are doeing something. But I am not 100% sure, if they really investigate this problem or are just waiting until I give up.


In the mean time I did some more tests with other HDMI-to-SDI-Converters:

(one is from a China source for sure, both are quite cheap and I assume are for home and CCTV markets). I run tests with them also (got the from Amazon Germany):
1. Port-ta
2. Musou
Both also can convert 1080p50, but both can not be user set for the 3G-mode A/B, they always produce 3G-A.

Both did not work with the LEGRIA camera, they just did not produce any SDI stream at all. The cameras HDMI status just did not show any information, so the camera does not even recognize that there is something hooked up.


So I again took my Sat-TV-receiver as HDMI souce:

Feeding the above mentioned two new converter with a TV-Sat-receiver HDMI signal, they produce the 3G-A signal, but the BM TelevisionStudioHD does not receive a picture. The Magwell-USB-Capture can decode it, so its only the BM-TS-HD that has a problem with 3G-A (again, similar to my report, when the BM converter starts up with 3GA after power on with the camera hooked up, even if the converter is software set to 3G-B).


To make it short: With the LEGRIA, we get 3G-A, which the Magwell capture device can decode, but the BM TelevisionStudioHD does'nt. So there is definitely 1080p50 video going over the wire.



I assume, if the BM converter can be fixed in a way that - if set to 3G-B by software - it definitely does stick to what has been set (no matter what device feeds the HDMI input), it might also work with the LEGRIA camera. But its a guess after what you wrote about Payload ID.

I dont think the camera is the main problem, even if the HDMI signal seems to lack some information (or whatever is the reason), so it does not work well with converters. It works, if the camera is hooked up to one of the BM TelevisionStudioHD's direct HDMI-Input. When the converter is "triggered" with the Sat-Receiver HDMI signal before the camera is hooked up, it works with the camera, too, and continues to produce a 3G-B-DL-type of SDI stream (until converter is diconnected from USB-power).

With the TV source hooked up, I can switch the converter (using the BM converter tool) between A and B and it reacts instantly. With the camera hooked up, you can set it to A and B, but the output completely ingnores the settings, and stays at what has been before hooking up the camera.

If you figured out that the SMPTE 352M Payload ID is missing on the SDI signals from the converter, that could also be a hint. Because, if I set the converter to 3GA and feed the TV-Receiver-Signal it also works with the Television studio. And BM also claims it works with both A and B.

Even if the ATEM is set to level A, it does not recognize input from the HDMI-SDI-converter
set to Level A, with camera as HDMI input.

Funny: When I set the BM TelevisionStudioHD to 1080p50 Level A(!), I wonder why ATEM is delivering segmented frames instead of progressive here? The Magwell sees 1080sF 50Hz, and can not decode it.


This SMPTE 352M Payload ID missing problem might be some explanation, why sometimes its working and in other cases its not.


Do you also have an HDMI analyzer, too? Maybe you can figure out the difference between the camera handshake/data and the one from a TV-receiver.
I would expect, BM will do exactly this, but maybe only the p50-camera has this problem and not the 60p US-version (called VIXIA).

I hope to get in hold of a camera of a different manufacturer, to see how that will work out. But the LEGRIA is one of the cameras tested with best results out of its class. I get good results when shooting under low light conditions.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 6:02 pm

Peter Schams wrote:Hello Steinar

If this is a p50-Problem, and if BM does not read their forums anyway, we could switch to German for conversation :lol:

Ich bin eigentlich Norweger, aber ich wohnte in der Schweiz bis zum Juni, so ja, ich verstehe Deutsch… But let's stick to English.

I have a ticket open since 4 weeks or so, If I send another mail, I also get a reply from them that they are doeing something. But I am not 100% sure, if they really investigate this problem or are just waiting until I give up.

Funny. Support insisted nobody else had reported this problem. Did they tell you too you were the only one? :-P I've pointed them to this thread.


In the mean time I did some more tests with other HDMI-to-SDI-Converters:

(one is from a China source for sure, both are quite cheap and I assume are for home and CCTV markets). I run tests with them also (got the from Amazon Germany):
1. Port-ta
2. Musou
Both also can convert 1080p50, but both can not be user set for the 3G-mode A/B, they always produce 3G-A.

All the cheap ones I've seen are based on the GV7600 SDI chip, which doesn't send Payload ID under any circumstances. (The Blackmagic cards really ought to understand the signal anyway, but they don't.)

I assume, if the BM converter can be fixed in a way that - if set to 3G-B by software - it definitely does stick to what has been set (no matter what device feeds the HDMI input), it might also work with the LEGRIA camera. But its a guess after what you wrote about Payload ID.

Yes, for me A vs. B doesn't matter at all. The card can receive both with payload ID, but neither without payload ID.

Do you also have an HDMI analyzer, too? Maybe you can figure out the difference between the camera handshake/data and the one from a TV-receiver.

Unfortunately, no. Even the SDI analyzer was just a loan, where I had to call in multiple favors. But it doesn't help to have found the root cause, as long as Blackmagic support insists that the problem doesn't exist.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 7:34 pm

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:All the cheap ones I've seen are based on the GV7600 SDI chip, which doesn't send Payload ID under any circumstances. (The Blackmagic cards really ought to understand the signal anyway, but they don't.)

Oh they can.. Only most manufacurers don't program it because it is not mentioned in the datasheet of the GV7600 chip.. But the GV7600 is the "" Security version "" chip of the GS2972.. Only the GS2972 costs 4 times as much because it pays for the SMPTE license fee's..
So they made a NON SMPTE version to reduce costs of this chipset to integrate in cheap SDI security cameras and converters..

For the manual you can see a lot of similairtys but the word SMPTE and the registers that deal with the SMPTE functions are left out of the manual.. But i can confirm by testing it myself on the bench that the chip is capable of handling exact the same as the GS version.. :)
Unfortunatly they stopped producing the GV chipset.. There are large quantities still available in China.. But that supply will thin out in 2 or 3 years.. By that time SDI for secutiry cameras is non excisting anymore..

Blackmagic is using the GS2972 or similair chipset in their micro converter.. If they enable Bit 6 of memory 0x000h they can enable the SMPTE 352M Payload ID send.. But they still have to generate the payload..

For the chinese converters.. They could do 3G A and B if only the control to the GV7600 is programmed the right way.. I have a brand here which is a bit more expensive using the GV chipsets and do 3G A and B. software selectable..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 7:56 pm

Sounds interesting....

So, BM should be able to fix the micro converter and include the payload ID. What I read in a manual I stepped over is, that for 3G, the payload is essential for the receiver to know what size/fps the stream originally was.
Maybe the Magwell capture devices are more tolerant or smarter, compared with the BM Television Studio HD.

What I still wonder is, that depending on the HDMI source (Canon camera or TV-receiver), the BM micro-converter actually does memorize the desired level A or B, when selected by the BM tool, but it ignores it until the camera is diconnected and the TV receiver is hocked up. For me this still looks like some firmware malfunction, bug or misbehaviour, combined with bad payload settings for the chip inside.

I hope BM is willing and has the engineering power to solve that :ugeek:

Has anyone a recomended HDMI-SDI converter to get the Canon Legria working with the BM Television studio? It should be in the same price region and not doing more than conversion HDMI to SDI.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 8:22 pm

Peter Schams wrote:So, BM should be able to fix the micro converter and include the payload ID. What I read in a manual I stepped over is, that for 3G, the payload is essential for the receiver to know what size/fps the stream originally was. Maybe the Magwell capture devices are more tolerant or smarter, compared with the BM Television Studio HD.

You're right in that 3G-SDI specifies there should be a payload ID for autodetection. Nevertheless, capture cards should be able to be, at the very least, put in manual mode to override, so that the cheaper converters work—it's not much to ask, and other devices do it just fine. And yes, obviously the converters should be fixed (the Mini Converter reportedly has the same problem).

What I still wonder is, that depending on the HDMI source (Canon camera or TV-receiver), the BM micro-converter actually does memorize the desired level A or B, when selected by the BM tool, but it ignores it until the camera is diconnected and the TV receiver is hocked up. For me this still looks like some firmware malfunction, bug or misbehaviour, combined with bad payload settings for the chip inside.

How do you decide whether it's A or B? I think your detection in the case of no payload ID might just be wrong.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 9:23 pm

How do you decide whether it's A or B? I think your detection in the case of no payload ID might just be wrong.


When I hook up the micro converter via USB to a PC running the BM converter tool software, that one recognizes the actual converter and lets me preset the converter to A or B. Not more. The converter normally switches instantly to the selected type, which I can verify with my Magwell capture device software utility.
(proved with a TV receiver HDMI output)

It refuses to change the stream type when the camera is connected instead. I still can select A or B, but I dont see a change on the SDI output. But it kind of remembers the selection. Next time, the TV receiver is hooked up, the converter does what has been selected last. This is the strange point ...

When the converter is powered up (with camera at its input or hooked up afterwards), it always produces 3GA, at least that is what the Magwell utility displays, and I also can display the captured video with VLC, so the stream is playing for sure. But I can not veryfy if the utility is right in what it says, nor can I check the payload data.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 9:25 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:For the manual you can see a lot of similairtys but the word SMPTE and the registers that deal with the SMPTE functions are left out of the manual.. But i can confirm by testing it myself on the bench that the chip is capable of handling exact the same as the GS version.. :)
Unfortunatly they stopped producing the GV chipset.. There are large quantities still available in China.. But that supply will thin out in 2 or 3 years.. By that time SDI for secutiry cameras is non excisting anymore..

So in theory, someone who is extremely dedicated could open up the Chinese converters, pick out the firmware of the microcontroller, and modify it to set a payload ID? (Even a static one would fix the problem…) That would be interesting indeed, but far outside my hardware prowess.

Xtreemtec wrote:Blackmagic is using the GS2972 or similair chipset in their micro converter.. If they enable Bit 6 of memory 0x000h they can enable the SMPTE 352M Payload ID send.. But they still have to generate the payload..

Well, under some circumstances they really do send 352M. But it really depends on the device, and for most devices I've seen, they don't (or send 00 00 00 00, I can't tell the difference). I suppose the reference devices in Blackmagic's own labs do work, and they don't test with anything else…

[quoteFor the chinese converters.. They could do 3G A and B if only the control to the GV7600 is programmed the right way.. I have a brand here which is a bit more expensive using the GV chipsets and do 3G A and B. software selectable..[/quote]
I don't really care about A versus B, given that modern BM gear actually receives (and sends) A just fine. I initially thought this was an A/B issue, too, but it really isn't.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 02, 2017 9:41 pm

I pointed BM support to this forum topic.

They should by now have enough information to have their firmware programmers get running and fix it. They may call it a new feature, but some major standard things like this should work as expected. Running quite a standard camera over a HDMI-SDI-converter is nothing special at all.

I would even accept it if the BM converter tool lets me select the resolution etc. (or the payload settings) manually according to my camera settings (instead of faulty automatic detection by the converter itself).

I give them another week for an reply.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostThu May 04, 2017 4:08 pm

Funny, I didn't notice before re-reading the thread now that there are no less than four people reporting the exact same problem with the Canon Legria cameras (and three of them with the Legria G40). And three of us have sent in support tickets.

I'm trying to figure out what my alternatives are if Blackmagic doesn't fix their converters. From what I can see, known bad converters are:
  • Aoeyoo AY31 (seems to be the OEM for basically all the GV7600-based ones that look the same) – about $25
  • Blackmagic Micro – $85
  • Blackmagic Mini – $195
Converters I haven't tested but that may be better:
  • Decimator MD-LX (bidirectional) – $99 (preorder, shipping in July)
  • Decimator MD-HX (cross converter/scaler) – $295
  • Aja HA5 – $345
  • AIDA GCON-HDMI (with genlock) – $495
  • Pesa PRO-HDMI2HD – approx. $531
  • Bluefish444 Synapse HDMI120 – $535
  • Keisoku Giken QMC-44HS-PRO (four channels, 4K) – approx. $2600
It's a mad world when you can charge $500 for a device that's less than $20 in parts.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostThu May 04, 2017 5:01 pm

I steped over two other (3 years older) forum topic that are basically reporting similar problems when 1080p50 is used, but only with older camera models:
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=22056#p137581
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22373
They used Canon, but I only looked for Canon in my seach string. So it could affect other cameras, too. I will try another brand soon and report the result here.

The 500$ Bluefish converter does some downscaling according to the spec, but I could not find out how to select that. 500$ are too much anyway. Maybe the dip-switches are worth $200 :lol: or it has a 5mm extra hardened tank steel case :lol:

A remark on posts to use an EDID injector. I also tried this (bought similar from Cpnrad for 16€), but it does not help. It only injects (or forces) the selected EDID, but only in the moment you plug in the second side of the cable or box. So this only tells me what I already know, that resolution handshaking is not the problem. The Camera outputs the 1080p50 anyway.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostThu May 04, 2017 7:18 pm

They used Canon, but I only looked for Canon in my seach string. So it could affect other cameras, too. I will try another brand soon and report the result here.

It's not at all specific to Canon. I have this problem with Sony HDR-CX405, GoPro Hero 4, Sony A5100, and pretty much every laptop I've tried.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri May 05, 2017 10:24 am

I got word from support that they would be forwarding my case to the developers.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri May 05, 2017 1:23 pm

I got the same info. Lets see...
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri May 05, 2017 11:16 pm

Before anyone asks: No, Desktop Video 10.9 doesn't change this. My 1080p50 camera still gets detected as 1080p25.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 09, 2017 7:08 pm

OK, I was courious and did 3 more tests:

1.
I got hold of a Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX80. There, the HMDI-Output-Connector-Framerate is set to (= according to) the camera video recording framerate (when you plug in the HDMI cable, the camera sets itself to the 1080-picture-size, even if you had 4:3 before.).
After that, the converter, even after power on, works out of the box, picks up the 1080p50 and sends it via SDI. My Magwell USB capture tool displays 3GB-DL (as preset in the converter), and the BM televison Studio HD processes/displays the picture.
BTW, it was introduced summer last year, the Canon Legria is on the market 1/2 year longer.

2.
I hooked up the converter to my PC HDMI output, after I set the Intel-HD-Graphics to 1080p50. In this case, the BM micro converter does the same stupid thing as with the Canon camera, it produces a (not priviously selected) 3GA stream. The Magwell processes it, but the BM-Tel.Studio does not.
After I manually set the Intel GMA Grafics to 30p (any other value does it, too), and then reset it to 50p again, it magically works.

3.
I created a long device chain:
    Canon Legria HDMI output
    -----[HDMI-cable]----->
    BM HDMI-to-SDI micro converter (first)
    -----[SDI-cable: 3GA, maybe bad payload ID]----->
    BM SDI-to-HDMI micro converter (second)
    -----[HDMI-cable]----->
    BM HDMI-to-SDI micro converter (third)
    -----[SDI-cable: 3GB-DL]----->
    BM-Televison Studio HD

My Magwell capture device always can capture the SDI-signal (after first and third converter)!
The second converter also understands the signal of the first one.
The BM-Televison Studio HD can not understand teh signal after the first converter, but only after the third!
Not funny :-(

Also here is another guy having reported similar problems in 2013/2015:
Mini Converter HDMI to SDI - No SMPTE ST352 Video Payload ID
He has the same problems with 50p and 60p, too. Also with other BM converters.
The replyer also reported Payload ID problems, and that the converter will keep that payload ID until it loses power, even if you insert another device. He "triggered" the converter with a sony PS3, so it produces a 3GB-DL (and then sticks to it) and his setup works. I used an external Sat-TV receiver box instead and got the same result.

Assumption:
The Micro converter has a severe and wide spread problem with processing 50p signals from several devices (but no problem with HDMI-output from my TV receiver, the borrowed Pana-Camera, or the HDMI from another converter or the BM Tel.Studio itself).
Even the opposite SDI-HDMI-converter understands the (probably broken 3GA) signal generated by the first HDMI-SDI-converter with the Canon camera connected. But the BM-Televison Studio HD' SDI-input plug does NOT!

A "solution" would be to use the second (opposite) converter and occupy a precious HDMI input on the switcher, while leaving the designated SDI-input unused. This solution is stupid and costs 100€ extra for the second converter.

I hope that BM either fixes the damn converter to send proper signals (for all HDMI sources) and truely sends level A/B whatever has been preset, or fix the Video Switcher to accept the signal of their own BM converter. I could even live with a manual Payload ID (=resolution, frame rate, etc) setup possibility included in the converter SW tool, if that helps, so the converter says/rules what the connected HDMI souce has to send, while properly include corresponding payload IDs in the SDI stream.
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 09, 2017 8:10 pm

Actually, in this topic way above a clever guy wrote:
Blackmagic is using the GS2972 or similair chipset in their micro converter. If they enable Bit 6 of memory 0x000h they can enable the SMPTE 352M Payload ID send. But they still have to generate the payload.


Do the developers need more hints from users?
It can't be that difficult to implement, that the firmware sets some more chip registers in the right way, when 50p is detected to make it work properly....

For the ones interested, I just checked the BM micro converters myself:
The SDI to HDMI uses the Genum GS2971A -> ADV7511
The HDMI to SDI uses the ADV7610 -> Genum GS2972
Both have a little ATMEL uC for operation (with firmware).
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 3:21 pm

Peter Schams wrote:Actually, in this topic way above a clever guy wrote:
Blackmagic is using the GS2972 or similair chipset in their micro converter. If they enable Bit 6 of memory 0x000h they can enable the SMPTE 352M Payload ID send. But they still have to generate the payload.


Do the developers need more hints from users?
It can't be that difficult to implement, that the firmware sets some more chip registers in the right way, when 50p is detected to make it work properly....

For the ones interested, I just checked the BM micro converters myself:
The SDI to HDMI uses the Genum GS2971A -> ADV7511
The HDMI to SDI uses the ADV7610 -> Genum GS2972
Both have a little ATMEL uC for operation (with firmware).

Actually i am a developer that is working for 2 years with gennum chipsets now. The Atmel UC that they used is BMD proppertary.. But looks like it it pin compatible with the ATXMega16A4.. (Hence BMDUSB01 MH1604).. But actually some pins of interest seem to line up with the XMega16A04
The problem is that the programming of these processors is in a way different to the 32Bit processors i use..
You need a flip programmer for this one.. Which i don't have.. The Atmel Jtag programmer i have is not compatible..

Besides.. if i was to figure out how the hardware is connected to the chip and would be able to reprogram the chip.. There would be tons of work left.. As you have to generate the EDID tables for this HDMI chip.. Run all the commands for the HDMI chip to work propperly.. It won't connect or firmware update anymore to the BMD software..
So spending 40+ hours for programming it all and research about this HDMI chip.. It is not worth it only to fix a issue with some cameras..

It would be nice if BMD would solve this issue them self.. :) As they have to fix a few lines in there firmware to fix the issue..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 3:39 pm

Hello Daniel

Of course I dont expect you to solve the problem.
And it does not sound very simple.

But I expect from BM to do their homework for the next update, hopefully coming soon.

BR
Peter
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 4:46 pm

> Besides.. if i was to figure out how the hardware is connected to the chip and would be able to reprogram the chip.. There would be tons of work left.. As you have to generate the EDID tables for this HDMI chip.. Run all the commands for the HDMI chip to work propperly.. It won't connect or firmware update anymore to the BMD software..

Well, there's no good technical reason why you couldn't just pick out the existing firmware from the updater and start working from there… I mean, it can obviously reprogram itself without too much hassle.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 4:48 pm

Peter Schams wrote:The replyer also reported Payload ID problems, and that the converter will keep that payload ID until it loses power, even if you insert another device. He "triggered" the converter with a sony PS3, so it produces a 3GB-DL (and then sticks to it) and his setup works. I used an external Sat-TV receiver box instead and got the same result.

That replyer would be me. But I never said anything about level B; it's you who keep making this about A versus B.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 6:42 pm

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:Well, there's no good technical reason why you couldn't just pick out the existing firmware from the updater and start working from there… I mean, it can obviously reprogram itself without too much hassle.


Well maybe really maybe you could get the HEX source if you try really hard.. But then.. Hex source to readable code is really hard.. There is software that does a good job.. But never 100%.. So getting it back to C/C++ for read-able code will not be easy at all.....

I think it will take more time then start from scratch honestly.. But nevermind.. BMD can fix it faster i think..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 9:10 pm

Well maybe really maybe you could get the HEX source if you try really hard.. But then.. Hex source to readable code is really hard..

By “HEX source”, I assume you mean machine code? A disassembler will turn it into assembly code easily enough.

There is software that does a good job.. But never 100%.. So getting it back to C/C++ for read-able code will not be easy at all.....

I assume you're talking about Hex-Rays? (That's the only really good decompiler, at any rate. There's other stuff like Hopper that claims to be “decompilers”, but Hex-Rays is a totally different league.) That works with x86, PowerPC and ARM only, so not applicable here.

I think it will take more time then start from scratch honestly..

As someone who's done a fair bit of software reverse-engineering, I'm pretty sure this isn't the case; monkey-patching in one bugfix is vastly less work than making a program from scratch. But I agree Blackmagic should just fix it themselves, so I don't plan to make an attempt. :-) (For all I know, the firmware could be encrypted and/or signed, making it impossible to flash modified firmware.)
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed May 10, 2017 11:01 pm

Blackmagic has responded. They've reproduced my problem locally (YAY!) and have filed an internal ticket.

Of course, there's no guarantee that there will be a fix anytime soon; even if it would be fixed tomorrow (highly unlikely), getting it into a release could take weeks or months. Or there might never be a fix at all. But it's great news nevertheless.
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