HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

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Xtreemtec

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri May 12, 2017 11:06 am

Well it is good they could reproduce it..

We will see when and how it gets solved..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat May 13, 2017 2:01 pm

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
Well maybe really maybe you could get the HEX source if you try really hard.. But then.. Hex source to readable code is really hard..

By “HEX source”, I assume you mean machine code? A disassembler will turn it into assembly code easily enough.

There is software that does a good job.. But never 100%.. So getting it back to C/C++ for read-able code will not be easy at all.....

I assume you're talking about Hex-Rays? (That's the only really good decompiler, at any rate. There's other stuff like Hopper that claims to be “decompilers”, but Hex-Rays is a totally different league.) That works with x86, PowerPC and ARM only, so not applicable here.

I think it will take more time then start from scratch honestly..

As someone who's done a fair bit of software reverse-engineering, I'm pretty sure this isn't the case; monkey-patching in one bugfix is vastly less work than making a program from scratch. But I agree Blackmagic should just fix it themselves, so I don't plan to make an attempt. :-) (For all I know, the firmware could be encrypted and/or signed, making it impossible to flash modified firmware.)


Well - HexRays is my day job ( broadcast was my day job - but is now just a hobby )

The results with HexRays are hugely variable - it depends on what metadata you have available ( symbols / hardware documentation ). It also depends on the cpu type and how well supported that is in the HexRays plugin ( x86/Arm well supported - PowerPC support just introduced - anything else you'll have to manually convert the disassembly to pseudocode ).
I would say that patching such a simple function would be the easiest - but back to source may be the most useful.

Back to compileable sourcecode is definitely possible - the decision is whether it is the most efficient solution and if it is legal in your particular country / circumstances.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun May 14, 2017 11:13 am

Andy Coulthurst wrote:The results with HexRays are hugely variable - it depends on what metadata you have available ( symbols / hardware documentation ). It also depends on the cpu type and how well supported that is in the HexRays plugin ( x86/Arm well supported - PowerPC support just introduced - anything else you'll have to manually convert the disassembly to pseudocode ).

Well, the BM converters use an Atmel chip and the Chinese converters an STM8S; neither is supported by Hex-Rays. (The latter is not even supported by IDA.) So like I said, it's not applicable here.

But you can certainly run a regular disassembler and work from there. You don't need to understand all of the code, and you certainly don't need to translate everything back to C before doing modifications (as long as you're comfortable writing assembler and patching in a jump or two).
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun May 14, 2017 2:07 pm

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
Andy Coulthurst wrote:The results with HexRays are hugely variable - it depends on what metadata you have available ( symbols / hardware documentation ). It also depends on the cpu type and how well supported that is in the HexRays plugin ( x86/Arm well supported - PowerPC support just introduced - anything else you'll have to manually convert the disassembly to pseudocode ).

Well, the BM converters use an Atmel chip and the Chinese converters an STM8S; neither is supported by Hex-Rays. (The latter is not even supported by IDA.) So like I said, it's not applicable here.

But you can certainly run a regular disassembler and work from there. You don't need to understand all of the code, and you certainly don't need to translate everything back to C before doing modifications (as long as you're comfortable writing assembler and patching in a jump or two).

Yep - stm8s/atmel are tiny :D ( in codesize ) , certainly wouldn't bother converting to C for those ( even if the code originated as C ). These cpus are supported by IDA for disassembly ( which is still far nicer to use than a standard disassembler ) but as you rightly say - not the hexrays plugin.
I have some of the cheap chinese converters - and will have a look at abusing one when I have some spare time ( perhaps useful as a cheap VANC/HANC extractor - time for play )
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun May 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:Well, the BM converters use an Atmel chip and the Chinese converters an STM8S; neither is supported by Hex-Rays. (The latter is not even supported by IDA.) So like I said, it's not applicable here.

But you can certainly run a regular disassembler and work from there. You don't need to understand all of the code, and you certainly don't need to translate everything back to C before doing modifications (as long as you're comfortable writing assembler and patching in a jump or two).

Fairly sure I have an STM8S plugin for IDA hanging around ( I have written several processor plugins - not too difficult ). Must go and check.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSun May 14, 2017 2:14 pm

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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon May 15, 2017 8:41 pm

Thanks!

My development kit arrived today, but I need to get help with some soldering, and then install the software… Might be a while, but if I actually get a readout, I'll be sure to test your plugin.
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Andy Coulthurst

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 16, 2017 4:37 am

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:Thanks!

My development kit arrived today, but I need to get help with some soldering, and then install the software… Might be a while, but if I actually get a readout, I'll be sure to test your plugin.


Not my plugin :-)
I am unable to release any of my projects due to confidentiality.
So - the linked plugin is untested by me.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue May 16, 2017 8:14 pm

I got my STM8S kit, and managed to contact one of the devices (the one that I know positively is an STM8S). Unsurprisingly, readout protection was enabled, so that drew a complete blank.

The other one doesn't have any markings, and I just get “cannot communicate with the device” when trying to talk to it. No idea what the status is on that one.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat May 20, 2017 7:22 pm

I got in contact with the AY31 as well; the pinout was 4312, for whatever reason. Unsurprisingly, it's readout-protected, too.

So basically patching the Chinese converters won't be working. We'll need to wait until Blackmagic fixes their four-times-as-expensive converters, and then buy those.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostThu Jul 20, 2017 11:17 am

There's a new converter update going, with one of the points in the changelog going: “Improved EDID handshaking for Micro Converter HDMI to SDI”. I wonder if this is relevant to the problem?
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Peter Schams

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 7:31 pm

I also had another look at the support page recently. It was the day after the update was posted and available. I downloaded it and tried it out.

The setup with Canon Legria (and I assume other devices, too) works with 1080p50 now right away after powerup. No need of pre-triggering the converter with some receiver device to get it working.

So, finally BM solved the hilarious bug or problem (at least mine). But it took them 4 months :(

What I still dont like with BM is that their communication on open tickets is equal to zero. Also, when an update might now solve a problem, there is no email or anything. You need to come back to the support page to see, if there are updates available.
But some dealer at a product show prewarned me that BM has this kind of behaviour.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Jul 28, 2017 1:37 pm

Nice. I can't test easily myself right now, but perhaps there's hope…

What annoys me the most is that it took me literally months to convince support that this was a real problem and not just me doing something wrong.
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 10:50 am

Much belatedly, I got to test 7.0.9, and it fixes the problem for me, too.
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Bernard-U2UC

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Mar 15, 2019 3:58 pm

To all, as I experience the same kind of problem with a Micro Converter set betwenn a CANON LEGRIA HF R46 and an ATEM TS, Blackmagic UK support told me that this Micro Converter is not equipped with the EDID hanshake protocol usually going together with HDMI devices.
So I got:
Legria HDMI output -> ATEM HDMI input: ok , the ATEM speaks via EDID to the Legria to use the 1080 50i format.
Legria HDMI output -> Micro Converter -> ATEM SDI input : no signal, as the Legria HDMI status stays on 1080 50p because the Micro Converter is not transfering the format information.

The Legria can register in 1080 50i, when setting recording to the AVCHD FXP, MXP or LP formats. But the HDMI output status stays on 1080 50p.

Ant idea to lock the Legria HDMI status on 1080 50i ?
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostWed Mar 20, 2019 8:05 pm

I don't think it's as much “can't speak EDID” as “won't give the right EDID”. There's no way the micro converter can know that your TVS wants 1080i50; SDI is unidirectional. So it will present an EDID saying 1080p50 is completely okay, because from the perspective of the converter, it is (it will send it as 3G-SDI).

There are devices (such as Dr. HDMI) that you can put between the camera and your converter to force a certain EDID. But of course, they're not free. The best thing would be if you could set the HDMI output mode manually on your camera.
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Bernard-U2UC

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostFri Mar 22, 2019 12:03 pm

Thanks Steinar, and clear now that EDID is only active on the HDMI part of the chain, not the downstream SDI.
With a LUMIX (FZ300) I can force the HDMI output to 1080i and the signal is then well transfered, after SDI conversion, down to the ATEM TS.
I cannot do the same on the CANON Legria: even when choosing a 1080i recording format (AVCHD MXP for instance), the HDMI status stays on 1080p. Not logic and question sent to CANON support.
Now, as the EDID protocol is active on the CANON, a "software" manual setting of the converter HDMI input to 1080i would also work. Suggested converter software upgrade communicated to Blackmagic.
Will see ...
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Steinar H. Gunderson

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostSat Mar 23, 2019 12:22 am

I doubt you'll have much luck getting Blackmagic to make the EDID configurable, unfortunately.

I'd love to get that done on the Intensity Shuttle, though… having computers connect at 1080i (instead of 720p) by default is a pain.
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Bernard-U2UC

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Re: HDMI-SDI micro converter problem

PostTue Aug 06, 2019 8:49 pm

I recently tested the "DOCTOR HDMI" device and it works fine to enforce the desired signal format before the HDMI/SDI converter. On my Canon Legria, it enforces the HDMI status to change from 1080p, the default status, to 1080i, the expected status for my ATEM TVS. On a GoPro 3, it makes the 1080 25 format well transfered to the ATEM set on 1080i50.
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