1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

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Jeremy Davidson

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1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 9:18 pm

I just picked up an SDI to Analog Mini Converter to pull an audio feed from our SDI switch (20x20 VideoHub), but so far I'm not having much success. Our SDI setup runs at 1080p60 resolution, but when I try to feed a signal into the Analog mini converter, I get only a broken audio stream (multiple dropouts per second) and some clicking sounds. I still get a similar response whether I feed the mini converter from the VideoHub or directly from an SDI source through only five feet of cable, and I've tried two different sources (MacBook via HDMI to SDI micro converter, and Raspberry Pi via Gefen HDMI to SDI converter).

The mini converter DOES work if I use a lower resolution, such as 720p60 or 1080p30, or even 1080i60, but it just can't seem to reach 1080p60 reliably.

I'm finding conflicting reports online about whether this device can support 1080p60 (which I neglected to notice prior to purchase -- oops). BlackMagic's website says it should work up to 1080p60, but other vendor sites mention only up to 1080i60. Another forum post here also mentioned a similar issue (a couple of people couldn't get the SDI to Analog device to downconvert 1080p60 to SD composite -- only worked at 1080i60).

Any suggestions? I'm only looking for audio here, so the similar SDI to Audio mini converter would totally fit the bill, but I'm seeing the same conflicting information on that device as well.

I'm pretty sure we made sure it had the latest firmware (sorry, I don't have the exact version number at the moment). We also tried a few different dip switch settings, but nothing seemed to help.


Thanks!

-Jeremy
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Andrew Martin

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 9:06 am

The bmd website does list it as capable of 3g upto 1080/60, so it should suffice.
maybe look at the sdi cable, what type, what length, is it rated for 3g. try a much shorter lengh to test. Also im not sure the unit scales so could be why your not seeing an sd image out. Believe its a format conversion, what image resolution you put in ie 1080/60 is what comes out as composite.

A.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 11:16 am

3G Level A vs Level B problem. By head that converter does not support both 3G standards.. ;)

If you have a decimator try to do a Level A to B conversion or vice versa and i guess it will work then. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Jeremy Davidson

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 3:31 pm

Andrew, I have tried a couple of different configurations with different cables (brand new Canare SDI cables), but so far it hasn't helped. Even connecting straight out of a Gefen EXT-HDVGA-3G-SC scaler (fed via HDMI) with only five feet of cable still didn't work.

I'm not looking for a video signal at all -- I only want the audio. I mentioned the composite issue because another post here on the forum had indicated similar compatibility issues with this mini converter in regard to 1080p60 mode.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=52263&p=323541&hilit=sdi+analog+1080p60#p323541

Daniel, I'm still new enough to SDI that I don't have any test tools (guessing that's what a "decimator" is?). That said, the Gefen scaler can output an SDI signal at a number of resolutions including 3G-A and 3G-B 1080p60. Neither of them worked, however. 1080i60 or 720p60 from the same scaler tested OK.

At one point during testing, I had the SDI pass-through on the mini converter feeding the rest of our video system just so I could see an image, and even this signal started dropping out. Could it be that the SDI input on the mini converter is not syncing to the clock correctly?


Is there anything I need to enable via the USB interface on the mini converter? A fellow tech took a look at it (and I'm pretty sure he said the unit already had the most current firmware), but I haven't seen it yet myself.

Thanks!
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 8:04 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Well i just tested this for you..
Updated to software v7.0.7

It seems that the converter can not handle 3G-SDI both A and B standard...
But it does 25, 29,97, 30P.. (which are still 1,5G standard)
Image


Well again made the same test with FW 7.1 Mini Convert SDI to Analog non 4K.
Same Result!! up to 1080i60 goes well but 3G is not supported! :!: :!: So it does not live up to the spec said on the website.



In your case you would be better off with a SDI to HDMI mini converter which does support 1080P and also gives you audio on Jacks out ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Andrew Martin

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 7:21 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:
Well again made the same test with FW 7.1 Mini Convert SDI to Analog non 4K.
Same Result!! up to 1080i60 goes well but 3G is not supported! :!: :!: So it does not live up to the spec said on the website


BM up to it's old tricks again of over speccing it's equipment
I guess it's the usual 'final specs of gear after pending updates' :-(

A.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostSat Nov 25, 2017 8:24 pm

Shoot a ticket to Support. If they spec it, it should work like that right?!! ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostSun Nov 26, 2017 6:35 pm

A question I have, is did Jermey get one of the original SDI/Analog Mini Converter (Rev 1 released before the 4K version about 5-8 years ago) or is it the new re-released HD Mini Converte (Ver 2)? The original model is 1.5G SDI and only supports up to 1080p30. The current (ver 2) HD Converter has an upgraded SDI and supports HD up to 1080p60, which is the current specifications on the BM Site.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 5:25 pm

Not true Denny, The website mentions this under the HD model.
Description

The perfect way to convert from SD and HD-SDI to analog component, s-video or NTSC/PAL composite. Mini Converter SDI to analog supports all SD and HD input formats up to 1080p60 and includes a down converter for when you need to convert from HD to standard definition analog formats such as s-video and composite. Audio can be de-embedded to balanced analog or AES/EBU. Mini Converter SDI to Analog is ideal for converting to older analog equipment when you don’t need the extra cost of the 6G-SDI 4K model.


SD Video Standards
525i59.94 NTSC, 625i50 PAL

HD Video Standards
720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60
1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60
1080PsF23.98, 1080PsF24, 1080PsF25, 1080PsF29.97, 1080PsF30
1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60

2K Video Standards
2K DCI 23.98p, 2K DCI 24p, 2K DCI 25p
2K DCI 23.98PsF, 2K DCI 24PsF, 2K DCI 25PsF

SDI Compliance
SMPTE 292M, SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 296M, SMPTE 372M, SMPTE 424M-B, SMPTE 425M, ITU‐R BT.656 and ITU-R BT.601.

SDI Video Rates
SDI video connections are switchable between SD, HD, and DCI 2K.

SDI Video Sampling
4:2:2

SDI Audio Sampling
Television standard sample rate of 48 kHz and 24 bit.

SDI Color Precision
4:2:2

SDI Color Space
YUV

SDI Auto Switching
Auto detection of SD, HD or 3G-SDI.

Analog Video Standards
525i29.97 NTSC, 625i25 PAL
720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60
1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60
1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60

Analog Color Space
YUV

Analog Color Precision
4:2:2


The box just seems not up the Spec. 3G Level A and B tested and failed! Test source is a Teranex AV.
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostMon Nov 27, 2017 8:30 pm

Correct Daniel, the BM website specs are for the current ver 2 of the Mini Converters which support 3G SDI standard. The box back side Video Support is for HDTV 1.5G SDI spec, left over from the Ver 1 Mini Converters which came out before or around 2006, when BM first started in business. I have one fo the original Mini Converters, and SDI is 1.5G for SD, and HD 720p/1080i, no 1080p Support except for 1080 PSF up to 30fps.

The original Mini Converters were discontinued when the new 4K models came out at about the same price as the older HD models. However, the new 4K models did not support the lower resolutions, and complaints went out, and BM re-introduced the HD Mini Converters at its current lower price and added 3G SDI support, adding a 3G SDI label to the front of the original box, and did not update the back, putting the current specs on their Supoort site instead.

The 3G DDI standard was developed and published in 2005, so implemented after that. 6/12G SDI standard was released in 2015. So these higher bit rate capable SDI connections are relatively new. So the original pre 2005/6 Mini Converters could not have had 3G SDI Support, only 1.5G the then current standard.

However, not all 1080p24-60 signals are the same data bit rate, and 3G SDI only supports 1080p50/60 at 8 or 10-bit, 4.2.0/4.2.2 Video signal. A 1080p50/60 12-bit 4.2.0/4.2.2 or any 1080p50/60 at 4.4.4 requires a 6G SDI standard, and somthese higher bit rate signals, while still 1080p50/60 exceed the max bit rate of a 3G SDI connection. So the bottom line is going to be what Camera is being used, a Ursa Mini at 12-bit 1080p50.97 is not going to work with a 3GB SDI and will need 6G SDI interface. I ran into this issue with an Ursa in a studio situation. Luckily, the camera can output a 1080i59.97 signal that will work with 3G SDI at 12-bits (1080i50/60 8 or 10-bit will work with the 1.5G standard).

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostFri Dec 01, 2017 12:50 pm

Hmm that could make sense.. But still sounds weird that they did not update anything to the outside to say it is a REV 2.

Here is the image from the website for the HD model. i don't see a 3G logo..
Image

This image is the exact model of the unit which i have.
SN 826210

If the rev1 rev2 version difference is true this would be a major support nightmare because people say i have this box but it does not do what it says on the website.. :roll:

In my opnion there should be a message with the mini converters that 3G is supoorted from SN Xxxxx
That is how other companies do it. Or they put a number on it like the Decimator MD-Cross and MD-Cross v2. (Which created the option of adding all outputs to the scaler or use link out from input.)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostFri Dec 01, 2017 6:32 pm

Agreed, the cardboard box states 3G on the front, not on the Mini Converter itself, and that is about it, as far as any labeling goes.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 11:31 am

Well the story gets even better :lol:

Because of curiousity to see how far the SDI to Analog and the Sync Generator were different from eachother.. (Same PCB, different parts layed on it) i found out that my SDI to Analog has the Texas LMH0341 SDI Deserialiser in it.

LMH0341 3Gbps, HD, SD, DVB-ASI SDI Deserializer with Loopthrough and LVDS interface.

So that means that it would in theory be able to receive 3G-sdi.. So i'm stumped why it does not do in tests i did so far..
And even because i tested it now with a Teranex. So we can rule out that it is a "not good" signal.. It is BMD hardware on BMD hardware.. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Denny Smith

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 5:23 pm

Interesting... Maybe a crazy question Daniel, but is the SDI cable you are using 3G capable? Just a thought... :roll:
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 1080p60 support for SDI to Analog Mini Converter

PostTue Dec 12, 2017 10:57 am

Is 12G-SDI cable also allowed? :lol:
We don't use inferior cable anymore since a year or so.. We develop 12G-SDI hardware so the old cables were the first to go ;)

And the picture looks fine on my 3G Viewz monitor, Also perfect on my Atomos Inferno. Tryed both A and B settings. Source was a Teranex AV and also tryed the MD-Cross. So i guess i rulled out human failure..

Been messing with it for quite some time to change over the Dipswitch in various settings, And i know that i have the analog connected right to my Viewz because on 1080i it works perfectly.. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera

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