Metabones: soft image

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wndctter

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Metabones: soft image

PostFri Dec 14, 2018 2:33 am

Hi.

I bought a Metabones Speedbooster to be able to use my Canon EF prime lenses on the BMPCC4K.
Unfortunately after experimenting this past weekend my impression is that the lens element in the Speedbooster makes the images a bit too soft. As an experiment I bought a Comix Electronic non-boosted adapter to compare, and that looked much better from a sharpness perspective.

Being aware of the boosted vs non-boosted differences I'll probably stay with the latter since the degradation in image quality is not to my liking. But it was somewhat of a disappointment that the Speedbooster wasn't better.

Is that in line with other users experience, or was I just unlucky getting a "bad" copy ?

I've seen a few articles mentioning that the distortion was mostly at the corners, but to my eyes the softness was across the full image.

My test footage was shot in lossless raw, on a tripod with a shutter speed that would normally give sharp images with the same lens on my 5D/1D.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostFri Dec 14, 2018 8:00 pm

i read from many review that actual speedbooster have some incompatibility between caldwell glass (metabone) and sensor protection glass of pocket4k
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Denny Smith

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostFri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Speed booster (focal reducers) work great with small sensor cameras like the originsl Pocket and Micro Cameras. But for the full MFT sensor found on the new BM Pocket 4K, not that much of an advantage, unless you want to match a lens perspective between the Pocket 4K and a S35 Camera like the UM Pro. I got one of the original Metabones MFT/Nik SB for my AF100, only really ended up using it with the Zeiss 28mm for some slightly wider shots. Otherwise, putting a 50mm lens on the 0.64 SB was no advantage over just using a 35mm lens at the same subject/camera distance, and I could eliminate any optical SB issues by just using the 35mm lens with a non SB MFT/Nik adapter.

The new Pocket 4K sensor is very close to the Academy STD. 35mm gate size (0.18 horizontal difference on a 16:9 gate size), that using a SB only gives a minimal advantage. On the smaller sensor crops used by the Pana GH4/5, using the SB designed for them did have some advantages, but not so much with the larger sensor on the GH5S and Pocket 4K.

I would rather spend the extra money the SB costs on a new native MFT lens, like the new Panasonic Leica 10-25mm f/1.7 Zoom that is coming soon... :mrgreen:
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Rado Stefanov

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSat Dec 15, 2018 8:06 am

Having MFT lens makes sense if there was a distortion correction in camera.
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSat Dec 15, 2018 5:58 pm

Which one? I am especially interested in zooms.
12-100mm distortion is too much to my liking. Otherwise good lens.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSat Dec 15, 2018 6:24 pm

The Olympus 14-35 SW FT f/2.0 zoom is a great video zoom on a BM camera. It has little to no distortion, real manual focus (not focus by wire) as well as push to focus autofocus on BM cameras, and is parfocal. It has a wounderful IQ also. I have one with the Oly MFT adapter available, PM me for details.
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Rado Stefanov

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSat Dec 15, 2018 6:26 pm

Denny Smith wrote:The Olympus 14-35 SW FT f/2.0 zoom is a great video zoom on a BM camera. It has little to no distortion, real manual focus (not focus by wire) as well as push to focus autofocus on BM cameras, and is parfocal. It has a wounderful IQ also. I have one with the Oly MFT adapter available, PM me for details.
Cheers

Not interested in FT lesnes. Thanks
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Denny Smith

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSat Dec 15, 2018 6:43 pm

It was FT zooms Ray was referring to also. Most MFT WA zooms are going to,have some distortion at the wide end. Perhaps the new Pana Leica 10-25 f/1.7 will have better controlled distortion. I have a Duclos mod Tokina 11-16 Cine Zoom, which very little distortion at the wide end, at 12mm and longer. Any lens in the 9.5-12mm range on a MFT format is going to have some distortion, the difference is how well controlled the distortion is. ;)
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Rado Stefanov

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSat Dec 15, 2018 6:54 pm

Denny Smith wrote:It was FT zooms Ray was referring to also. Most MFT WA zooms are going to,have some distortion at the wide end. Perhaps the new Pana Leica 10-25 f/1.7 will have better controlled distortion. I have a Duclos mod Tokina 11-16 Cine Zoom, which very little distortion at the wide end, at 12mm and longer. Any lens in the 9.5-12mm range on a MFT format is going to have some distortion, the difference is how well controlled the distortion is. ;)
Cheers

Distortion at the wide end is understandable but not in the middle and at the long end like the Oly 12-100.
I wish metabones made M43 T CINE Smart Adapter.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 1:22 am

For well controlled or distortion free zooms, you need to step up to Cine Zooms, and get a good MFT/PL adapter, like the one HotRod Cameras has with their rail support bracket. Another option is Wooden Camera MFT/PL and the WC lens rail support kit which fits the PL adapter.
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Rado Stefanov

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 5:01 am

Denny Smith wrote:For well controlled or distortion free zooms, you need to step up to Cine Zooms, and get a good MFT/PL adapter, like the one HotRod Cameras has with their rail support bracket. Another option is Wooden Camera MFT/PL and the WC lens rail support kit which fits the PL adapter.
Cheers

The Fujinon MKs should come with MFT mount.
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rick.lang

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 5:05 am

Rado, B&H Photo says the MKs in MFT Mount are coming soon.


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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 4:54 pm

And SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot including focus gears gives you a budget anamorphic wider view for $1,800. The adapter was specifically designed to work with the Fujinon MK zooms at focal lengths 30mm and above.


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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Seeking some advice here...
I have a lot of Canon L-glass to use with my UMP, Mini, etc.
My P4k will arrive any day now and will mostly be used on Gimbal with focus motor.
Don't like to add any glass via speed booster if I can avoid it.

Is a Viltrox EF-M1 an alternative without compromise with IQ?
Any negativs?

Thx

Jerry
DR Studio | Mac Pro 7.1 16c | 192 GB Ram | 2x RX 6900 xt | MBP M1
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 6:53 pm

A non speed booster (no optical block) smart adapter will not change the lens’ IQ or AOV, it will only adapt the lens to the new mount, and in the case of a EF smart adapter, add electronic lens control. Currently youmwill not get auto focus, but should have iris and manual focus controls.
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 7:54 pm

I have a Comix/Commlite MFT which cost around 170$ on Amazon. I did some testing this morning using my 85L1.2 and it certainly looked crisper than with the speedbooster (which I returned).
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 8:11 pm

rick.lang wrote:Rado, B&H Photo says the MKs in MFT Mount are coming soon.


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I know. I don't use BHphoto but the second they are available I am considering them plus a 12mm(24mm) prime.
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 8:12 pm

Thx Denny and wndctter

I will go for the cheap alternative and keep IQ at max.

Think I'm wide enough with my glass...

Jerry
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 8:42 pm

wndctter wrote:Hi.

I bought a Metabones Speedbooster to be able to use my Canon EF prime lenses on the BMPCC4K.
Unfortunately after experimenting this past weekend my impression is that the lens element in the Speedbooster makes the images a bit too soft. As an experiment I bought a Comix Electronic non-boosted adapter to compare, and that looked much better from a sharpness perspective... My test footage was shot in lossless raw, on a tripod with a shutter speed that would normally give sharp images with the same lens on my 5D/1D.


If you purchased the SpeedBooster Ultra, there are six elements in there which seems it should be enough to render a good image. Did you try to adjust the final element to change focus? If you have overall softness it might just need a little turning to get it right. We’ve heard the Ultra should work well with the sensor glass thickness of the BMPCC4K, but how true that is I can’t say.


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wndctter

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 10:01 pm

jerrygladh wrote:Seeking some advice here...
I have a lot of Canon L-glass to use with my UMP, Mini, etc.
My P4k will arrive any day now and will mostly be used on Gimbal with focus motor.
Don't like to add any glass via speed booster if I can avoid it.

Is a Viltrox EF-M1 an alternative without compromise with IQ?
Any negativs?

Thx

Jerry


Not sure how this site treats links, but below is a reference to something I recorded this morning.
I used an 85L1.2 with the Commlite MFT. Shot at ISO200 F6.5. Post processing was default Resolve settings except for WB to a color chart and a slight S curve to dehaze.

Edit: It didn't like the direct link try this with youtube first watch?v=_-k42jk-5go&feature=youtu.be
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Bo-Ming Tong

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Dec 16, 2018 11:01 pm

Did you purchased/returned the XL or the ULTRA?
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wndctter

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostMon Dec 17, 2018 6:06 am

rick.lang wrote:
wndctter wrote:Hi.

I bought a Metabones Speedbooster to be able to use my Canon EF prime lenses on the BMPCC4K.
Unfortunately after experimenting this past weekend my impression is that the lens element in the Speedbooster makes the images a bit too soft. As an experiment I bought a Comix Electronic non-boosted adapter to compare, and that looked much better from a sharpness perspective... My test footage was shot in lossless raw, on a tripod with a shutter speed that would normally give sharp images with the same lens on my 5D/1D.


If you purchased the SpeedBooster Ultra, there are six elements in there which seems it should be enough to render a good image. Did you try to adjust the final element to change focus? If you have overall softness it might just need a little turning to get it right. We’ve heard the Ultra should work well with the sensor glass thickness of the BMPCC4K, but how true that is I can’t say.

I did see references to that, but from what I came across it seemed to apply tho achieving focus at infinity. So no, I did not experiment with it, and I did not want to make adjustment that might make a return impossible.

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostMon Dec 17, 2018 4:04 pm

Haven't even bothered with our SBs with the new P4K. Native MFT glass looks amazing and offers great FLs, size and weight advatages not to mention AF in a pinch.
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostMon Dec 17, 2018 8:57 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:Haven't even bothered with our SBs with the new P4K. Native MFT glass looks amazing and offers great FLs, size and weight advatages not to mention AF in a pinch.

Which MFT glass look amazing other then the manual ones?
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostTue Dec 18, 2018 8:03 pm

The Panna Leica 42.5mm Noct. is nice, great IQ, and excellent, quick AF. Also while not exactly MFT, then Oly 14-35mm FT zoom is also excellent, great IQ, and it is very close to parfocal on most NFT Cameras am with the Oly MFT adapter.
Cheers.
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Philipp Walz

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 9:22 am

Hi there,

I'm about to return my Speedbooster Ultra, too. I realized that there is absolutely no benefit with this adapter on this camera, apart from the fact that the image is really soft in the corners.
But I found a nice little app called LENS MATCHER and found out that my Sigma 18-35 is effectively a 15,3 mm when using the SB Ultra 0.71x on the Pocket 4k. Thats why I see soft corners! Cause the image circle is much more reduced than the size of the sensor.
My Tokina 11-16 mm isn't very unusable at 11 mm.
So I will spend my money on a simple lens adapter instead of a speedbooster. The difference isn't that huge from 18 mm to 21,6 mm.

IMG_0415.jpg
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 9:45 am

I thought the whole point of the focal reducers was that they were supposed to make the image sharper not softer?

The Sigma was 18-35 is not a good case in point because it doesn’t really have coverage, even for the .71
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Philipp Walz

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 10:38 am

Ian Henderson wrote:The Sigma was 18-35 is not a good case in point because it doesn’t really have coverage, even for the .71


What do you mean?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 11:47 am

Philipp, I've found my Sigma 18-35 performed well with the MB Cine SB 0.71 but I can confirm that the Tokina 11-16 isn't very usable because of soft corners and at 11mm you can't get focus along the complete focal plane. I too have decided to go the native lens route. My Olympus 12-100 f4 and 7-14 f2.8 are a great combo for what I am doing - the sharpness and micro contrast is really amazing. I've now accepted the barrel distortion of MFT lenses and I am shooting accordingly around that.
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Philipp Walz

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 12:28 pm

Robert, thank you for confirming that. I think it's important to know that a Speedbooster Ultra isn't that necessary on that camera. Combine a 800 € lens with a 750 € adapter and you get a 200 € image with soft corners and vignette when you mount some filters on it :D
I just bought a Commlite Adapter and will see how that works. I really would like to go native with new lenses but I love my big 3 (Sigma 18-35/1.8, Sigma 50/1.4, Tokina 11-16/2.8) and don't want to sell them.
I think with these 3 lenses you can do about everything you want cause you can crop the sensor to HD to get some nice tele stuff.
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 1:00 pm

I think having the sigma 18-35 on a 1.9x crop is actually a really big plus, ends up being a 1.8 34-66 roughly which I'd find a much more practical shooting focal length for many shots. Plus the sigma is a beautiful lens that you can then take with you to other systems where as while the Olympus lenses are nice they do away with the advantages of MFT which is to be small and light.
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Philipp Walz

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 1:03 pm

Ryan Payne wrote:I think having the sigma 18-35 on a 1.9x crop is actually a really big plus, ends up being a 1.8 34-66 roughly which I'd find a much more practical shooting focal length for many shots. Plus the sigma is a beautiful lens that you can then take with you to other systems where as while the Olympus lenses are nice they do away with the advantages of MFT which is to be small and light.


Correct me if I'm wrong but 1.9 crop isn't right cause you don't crop from KB to MFT with the Sigma 18-35. Right?
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Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 1:18 pm

An 18 is an 18 is an 18. Makes no difference what format it is marketed for - that refers just to the size of the image circle and what sensor it covers.

Generally when people refer to crop factor it is relative to full frame - so S35 is about 1.5 (depending on variation) and P4K is about 1.9.

Many people use the 18-35 on UMP but at full 4.6K it really doesn’t cover the sensor properly at 18mm - it’s slightly soft and vignettes ever so slightly in the corners (which many like). At 4K it’s fine.

I don’t have a .71 metabones on the P4K but from what I understand it is also soft in the corners because you’re right on the very edge of the 18-35 image circle at 18mm.

Of course with a straight adapter none of these problems occur and you’re right in the meat of ANY lens that covers a bigger sensor - all of the above options included.
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Philipp Walz

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 1:41 pm

Ian Henderson wrote:Generally when people refer to crop factor it is relative to full frame - so S35 is about 1.5 (depending on variation) and P4K is about 1.9.

But what is the math when converting from APS-C to MFT with SB on? Focallenght*1.5(crop)*0,71(SB)?
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 2:32 pm

18-35mm

UM46k
18 mm has same FoV as 26 mm on FF
35 mm has same FoV as 50 mm on FF
For 18 mm on FF you need 13 mm on UM46k
For 35 mm on FF you need 25 mm on UM46k

PCC4k UHD crop
18 mm has same FoV as 37 mm on FF
35 mm has same FoV as 71 mm on FF
18 mm has same FoV as 37 mm on UM46k
35 mm has same FoV as 71 mm on UM46k
For 18 mm on FF you need 9 mm on PCC4k
For 35 mm on FF you need 17 mm on PCC4k
For 18 mm on UM46k you need 13 mm on PCC4k
For 35 mm on UM46k you need 25 mm on PCC4k


PCC4k + SB 0.71
18 mm has same FoV as 26 mm on FF
35 mm has same FoV as 50 mm on FF
18 mm has same FoV as 18 mm on UM46k
35 mm has same FoV as 35 mm on UM46k
For 18 mm on FF you need 13 mm on PCC4k + SB 0.71
For 35 mm on FF you need 24 mm on PCC4k + SB 0.71
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 2:53 pm

When you compare APC to MFT, APC will become 1:1.
So you'll have to divide MFT by 1.5 as well.
2/1.5=1.333 x0.71 for the speedbooster =0.9466
with the 1.9 of the P4K you will end up with a 0.8993 crop
Hence the change of soft edges full open for APC lenses.

[/quote]
But what is the math when converting from APS-C to MFT with SB on? Focallenght*1.5(crop)*0,71(SB)?[/quote]
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Philipp Walz

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Mar 24, 2019 3:30 pm

Bunk Timmer wrote:When you compare APC to MFT, APC will become 1:1.
So you'll have to divide MFT by 1.5 as well.
2/1.5=1.333 x0.71 for the speedbooster =0.9466
with the 1.9 of the P4K you will end up with a 0.8993 crop
Hence the change of soft edges full open for APC lenses.


Thanks!
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antoniojr

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 5:30 pm

I also find my XL Speedbooster really soft when is paired to my Sigma 35 art. 1.4. This lens is not soft by any mean. I don't know if its a general problem with the BMPCC 4k and this SP or if it's my metabones copy.

If anyone have experience with this combo and can share their experience, it would be really helpful.
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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 9:22 am

antoniojr wrote:I also find my XL Speedbooster really soft when is paired to my Sigma 35 art. 1.4. This lens is not soft by any mean. I don't know if its a general problem with the BMPCC 4k and this SP or if it's my metabones copy.

If anyone have experience with this combo and can share their experience, it would be really helpful.


This is an interesting topic and you can get a lot of people reporting results based on "feeling". Here are some things to take into account:

- The Sigma 35 art is a lens designed for a "full frame" sensor. When using it in smaller sensors, the outer part of the lens misses the sensor and therefore the result departs from its intended use. Even with the XL's generous focal reducing you are still at 1.2x crop, which while it sounds "almost there", it still means that about 15~20% of the lens is cropped. While that area of the lens is usually less performing, especially on wide apertures the result is more and more compromised, because of that missing part of the glass.
- No matter what work the Speedbooster is doing, everything still ends to a smaller sensor. It's only natural that the result will be compromised compared to the large sensor. Especially if comparing against photos taken with that lens on a full frame camera - they are totally irrelevant to how this lens should perform in this MFT sensor sized cinema camera.
- Testing for things like sharpness, requires very careful design and implementation of such tests and can't be just judged by the eye or feeling. A common and newbie error many do in such tests, is to compare the same lens with and without focal reducer while maintaining the position of the camera. Obviously the focal reducer loses in that case because those testers just zoom at the same area in post and compare. The FOV with the focal reducer is larger and therefore that detail smaller and naturally less sharp. A proper test would require moving the camera to match the exact same FOV. In that case the focal reducer will most certainly win, with the main reason being what I've explained above: glass is designed to resolve a resolution; magnifying/cropping into the glass simply makes that resolution lower. The statement that focal reducers compromise the image and thus you should "not have another piece of glass between your lens and your sensor" is a myth and easily provable with the above test done properly - always talking about the high quality Metabones XL/Ultra Speedboosters of course, cheap focal reducers or older Metabones models could indeed at wide open apertures compromise the sharpness to a greater degree than the benefits gained by using more of the glass.
- In combination to the above error, another newbie mistake is to compare the results of the lens at the same aperture with and without a focal reducer. The correct way would be to compare the lens after adding that 1+1/3 stops that are gained by the focal reducer. For example f2 without a focal reducer then f3.2 with the focal reducer on - which will absolutely and most definitely be sharper on the focal reducer every single time. Except that by doing that you actually get the same DOF for correct comparisons, you should think that 1+1/3 stops you are gaining with the XL as a "gift" - that extra f0.9~f1.4 range (f1.4~f2.2 on your lens) is a gift. Close down your lenses to f1.4+(1+1/3 stops) in order to reach the same FOV as f1.4 without focal reducer, and compare again. Opening the lens at f1.4 with a focal reducer on and comparing the results with the lens at f1.4 without a focal reducer (on any camera) is absurd and inaccurate.
- Yet another mistake is to compare the results vs a full frame camera. Of course the lens won't have the same performance for the reasons I mentioned above; both because of the lens and the sensor. What is the lens expectation on a full frame camera has nothing to do with how that lens performs on crop sensors.
- Finally, another terrible test is comparing a lens between two different cameras that use different process / codecs etc. Sure that can determine how the lens looks on each camera but says nothing about the lens sharpness itself - unless comparison is against another lens.
- If you are interested to see if you can get sharper results with this camera you should try other lenses and compare them with what you are getting with the art 35+XL. For example a ~22mm MFT lens or ~22mm full frame lens without a focal reducer.
- Finally the Speebooster XL was designed mostly for Panasonic GH cameras. Perhaps the performance could be refined for this camera and that's what the new Pocket4K exclusive Speedbooster Metabones announced could be all about. That said, in my experience, the difference is very little and technical and for most use cases won't make any difference. The points I mentioned above, including the logical and practical errors in testing, are what has the biggest effect.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Metabones: soft image

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 7:38 pm

Mmm
Why you refers m4/3 to pocket4k?
Pocket is 4/3 not m4/3 sensor and crop is a lot less then 2 of m4/3
I tested Ursa Mini Pro full sensor read and pocket4k full sensor read with the same lens (metabone adapter only) and difference is not so big.
But if you crop during shooting with uhd shooting you crop lenses not the camera.
Use all sensor surface and later scale, you have better image and loose less in crop


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