Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

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Adriano Castaldini

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Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostSun May 21, 2017 12:37 am

Hi everyone,

I’m going to start with a new theatre-oriented documentary for school (and perhaps for a competition).
Up to now I’ve made video-oriented stuff, and a good stereo-audio was more than sufficient. But my last work was recently shown in a theatre as DCP and I heard the lack of a more complex audio track.
So, for my next work I’ll try to build a 5.1 audio track.
Anyway there are 2 conditions:
1. I’m a one-man crew, so I’d need to use an effective form factor audio recorder mounted on my camera;
2. The kind of sounds I need to capture are ambient sounds (then no interview set) like audio in nature documentaries.

So, please, I need your advices as experienced cinematographers.

I tried to figure out what to buy:
First of all I thought to avoid a camera-connected microphone, for the simple reason that camera’s pre-amps are not so good and add noise. So I thought to go for an external recorder, and specifically for a recorder with built-in mic (avoiding having cables that can produce noise if inadvertently touched buy the operator).

REAL SURROUND RECORDER
The first option seems to be Zoom H2n (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... table.html): this tiny recorder gives a true surround 4-channels audio thanks to 3 front capsules and 2 rear capsules. It seems great but I have 2 doubts here: 1. the little capsules are not "deep" like a shotgun, so I’m afraid they can capture only a near sound field (and perhaps also the noise of camera or operator’s steps); 2. having the recorder mounted on the camera, the 2 rear capsules will capture the noise from the operator actions!

FAKE SURROUND FROM STEREO
Since what I wrote above, I thought another solution could be buying a stereo recorder instead, to have at least 2 varied channels from which I could build a fake surround in post. Stereo recorders with integrated mics are:
1. Sony PCM-D100 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... field.html): the pros are S/N ratio up to 100dB and the variable angle of the mics’ capsules from 90° to 120°;
2. Tascam DR-100mkIII (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... order.html): the pro is S/N ratio of 109dB thanks to the AKM AK4558 converters, but mics’ capsules are fixed in parallel position;
I’m wondering if these products can record a deeper sound-DoF than the Zoom H2n?
If I’d go for one of this stereo recorders, I should process the 2 channels to obtain a fake 5.1 in post.

MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: FROM SHOTGUN MONO TO FAKE SURROUND
Many videographers use shotgun mics for their cameras, so I found 2 models with integrated recorders:
1. Tascam DR-10SG (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... order.html);
2. Shure VP83F LensHopper (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... tml?sts=pi) that declares a S/N ratio of 78dB (a bit poor in comparison with the stereo recorders above). Here the doubts are: 1. a bit noisy mics; 2. do you think is it possible to build a fake 5.1 in post starting from the shotgun mono recording? I suppose not, but I prefer to wait your advices.

Now, please, tell me which solution do you recommend for my purpose?

Thanks for your help.
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Paul Kapp

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 1:13 pm

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rick.lang

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Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 3:27 pm

These MixPre-3 and MixPre-6 devices feature 3 and 4 XLR In connectors respectively, but no XLR Out. Not that it will ever happen, but I've requested a firmware update from Sound Devices that they will have an option to use 1 and 2 of the XLR ports as XLR Out. That way you would have superior in camera recording as well as the external recording.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 6:26 pm

I'm thinking about moving over to one of these little guys, because my 633 is overkill for most of my needs (since I'm a cinematographer rather than a sound recordist), and the feature I use least on my 633 is the XLR outputs. :)

The tradeoff is gaining USB I/O, and supposedly the preamps in the MixPre-6 are even better than the preamps in the 633, which is quite an accomplishment.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 6:40 pm

I got quite nice 4 channel souround from my H1N, and than there is always the Ohrwurm. Technically it's just Stereo, but when you listen to it (even on only 2 speakers) it sounds way more immersive and deep than most of the synthetic 5.1

Operating a camera and get pristine sound with a on camera mic, but no breathing/handling noise - not gonna happen in my experience.
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 6:44 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:Operating a camera and get pristine sound with a on camera mic, but no breathing/handling noise - not gonna happen in my experience.


That's been my experience as well. On camera audio is good for interviews and scratch audio, in general.
Rakesh Malik
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rick.lang

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 10:04 pm

Frank and Rakesh, that's the appeal of using the MixPre-3/6, but my thinking was it might be handy having that missing XLR Out option that the MixPre-D has. It's not a showstopper though as I'm planning on a purchase regardless.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostMon May 22, 2017 10:07 pm

Agreed, Rick, it would. Even so, I'm thinking about selling my 633 and replacing it with a MixPre-D 6, and keeping the extra money for other useful things like savings, and also shrinking my kit a little bit. :)

I'm also planning on getting an XLR module for my camera that includes professional grade preamps, so I hope to not need the mixer to camera link all that much.
Rakesh Malik
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http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
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Adriano Castaldini

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostTue May 23, 2017 1:15 am

Thank you very much for all these answers.
Your main advice is a sounddevices mixer + mics. This means cables. Here my doubt is that in a run&gun condition, cables can be very often inadvertently touched, and this can produce noises in the recording. So I'd avoid cables. And I'd avoid using camera jack too (it introduces noise). For these reasons I'd prefer an all-in-one recorder with integrated mics.
Anyway, as Frank Glencairn wrote:
Frank Glencairn wrote:Operating a camera and get pristine sound with a on camera mic, but no breathing/handling noise - not gonna happen in my experience.
I agree, and precisely for this reason I'd avoid to use a 5.1 mic on camera, but I'd prefer a directional mic oriented away from the camera operator. For this purpose the Sony PCM-D100 with 2 unidirectional mics seemed to be the best compromise: there aren't cables, the mics are unidirectional (so they should avoid capturing operator noises) and can give a 120° stereo image.
This means doing 5.1 in post: from that 2-channels image I could extract LCR (L-R, L+R, R-L), and I could add some clean ambient recording (without camera) in Ls and Rs, and then with a touch of reverb between channels I should obtain a fake 5.1.
What to you think about this? Could it work?

Thanks a lot.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostTue May 23, 2017 4:38 am

Adriano Castaldini wrote: So I'd avoid cables. And I'd avoid using camera jack too (it introduces noise). For these reasons I'd prefer an all-in-one recorder with integrated mics.


Right... that's what the MixPre-D is for.

I agree, and precisely for this reason I'd avoid to use a 5.1 mic on camera, but I'd prefer a directional mic oriented away from the camera operator.


Good luck with that. If you don't want advice, stop asking. The only time the on-camera mics work is when you leave the camera alone during recording. Otherwise, they'll pick up noise from the operator and/or the camera. Even the best mics have trouble rejecting handling noise.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
Apple M1 Mini/16GB
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rick.lang

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostTue May 23, 2017 4:55 am

Seconding Rakesh's comment. Looking forward to the day when I can record externally.


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rick.lang

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostTue May 23, 2017 4:58 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:... I'm also planning on getting an XLR module for my camera that includes professional grade preamps, so I hope to not need the mixer to camera link all that much.


Please let us know what you select or your top contenders for that. Thanks in advance!


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostTue May 23, 2017 5:27 am

rick.lang wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:... I'm also planning on getting an XLR module for my camera that includes professional grade preamps, so I hope to not need the mixer to camera link all that much.


Please let us know what you select or your top contenders for that. Thanks in advance!


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The ones I'm eyeing right now are the Omod and Bright Tangerine modules for DSMC2.

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Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
Apple M1 Mini/16GB
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rick.lang

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Re: Mic+recorder for surround (post)purpose

PostTue May 23, 2017 4:06 pm

I pretty much ignored this Newsshooter NAB 2017 post as I didn't think it applied to BMD cameras. And I wasn't aware that the IO module included high quality preamps on board. Is this what you mean, Rakesh?
http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/04/21/b ... ry-market/



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