New Camera

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Wayne Steven

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New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 4:04 am

Anybody heard anything?

What do people think about a new model?
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 6:08 am

Daft! BM does not release info on new equipment until it is ready for release — anything else is just speculation.
DS
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Craig Seeman

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 7:23 am

Don't you miss the days when BMD would announce cameras 15 months before they shipped. It was almost like an "official" rumor.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 10:05 am

Maybe the first person to leak information next time won't be a Red user walking through NAB before opening. :)
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 12:18 pm

That new camera will be shipped in July :D
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Robert Niessner

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 1:34 pm

I posted my prediction here in summer 2017:

My guess is that BMD will build on the URSA Mini 4.6k and its sensor and will improve that design further.
For a hypothetical UMP MKII I could realistically see a further improved sensor with maybe 6 dB less noise, an option to do in-camera Noise Reduction, higher frame rates like 120fps in full raster and 240fps windowed, slightly improved DR of ~ +1 stop, improved calibration methods, an improved debayering algorithm with better anti-aliasing and moire suppression. I could imagine a slightly redesigned camera body with the bigger LCD of the UM46k, with more brightness for better readability in sunshine, some tweaks for buttons and switches alignment, a function wise more useful side handle grip, maybe additional support for the next generation of CFast: CFexpress (v1.0 ... 1970 MB/s up to 7880 MB/s). Maybe a bigger internal buffer for a few seconds of pre-cache-recording and a few seconds of highspeed fps in burst mode. They are certainly trying to get global shutter working with the next gen - but who knows.

And of course some further refining of the camera firmware.
I'd expect a UMP MKII not before summer 2019, as it seems there is missing some new technology like CFexpress cards ATM. And a MKII in summer 2018 would kill sales of the current UMP.

That would be my prediction for their next camera. I don't see them working on a 8k version yet as that wouldn't make much sense at the moment (in my opinion). That could be later in a MKIII then.

Of course Grant Petty and his team might have some crazy ideas in petto I am not even dreaming about :D
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 2:33 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:That new camera will be shipped in July :D


Is that July in the Northern or Southern hemisphere?
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 5:05 pm

Most people don’t know this, but Robert Niessner is the covert CTO for BMD Cameras and he’s been designing that camera he mentioned since 2015 when the first URSA Mini 4.6K was announced. Sure his predictions here throw in a few red herrings to add some credibility to his predictions, but I’m not fooled. I mean, come on now, who really thinks BMD would offer a flip-monitor that you can see in daylight!? I don’t think anyone here would believe that for a minute. As for the rest, hmmmm.




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Robert Niessner

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 5:28 pm

Damn, Rick got me uncovered.

Disclaimer:
Any post by me after 21 Feb 2013, 10:51 has been made as the CTO for BMD cameras. :D
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Jan 16, 2018 2:07 pm

Are you really the chief technology officer Robert? The one that can get the camera of our dreams made? And a free prototype for me, us, to play with?

THEN YOU'RE THE ONE TO BLAME!...

Lol :)
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Jan 16, 2018 4:31 pm

Just having some fun here, Wayne! My post was definitely inspired by a certain presidential tendency to fake news.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 17, 2018 12:48 pm

Oh, you mean that Robert isn't the one responsible for the delays in the 4.6k, or no 4kp50 pocket, mini 4k issues, or stopping firmware development for the pocket, noise in the 4k production camera or leaving the anti-alaising filter off?

Phew you escaped a close call there Robert. :)
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 17, 2018 9:30 pm




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Chris Chiasson

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 17, 2018 11:54 pm

What I "hope" is a new version of the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, and the Micro Cinema with 4K support, better low light, frame rates, weather proofing, USB-C or Thunderbolt, and if possible, in camera stabilization (which would be great for a Uarc Pro MKII as well).
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Jan 18, 2018 1:53 am

Why didn't they just throw in a $2 removable LCD and some more controls/buttons with the Micro. That would have made it an alternative to the pocket. They could add 4kp50/60 now.
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Ryan Payne

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Jan 18, 2018 6:48 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Why didn't they just throw in a $2 removable LCD and some more controls/buttons with the Micro. That would have made it an alternative to the pocket. They could add 4kp50/60 now.


The micro cinemas don't have enough mp to put out 4k and the studio doesn't have a good enough heat sink to record. Though I do wish there were some BM add-ons for the micro line, I'd buy them.
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Greg Lee

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Jan 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Now that I've bought a used Micro, I can tell you that an LCD would drain the battery just as crazy fast as the Pocket does (15 min.). Yes, the Micro uses larger LP-E6 batteries, but the life is not nearly as long as those batteries in my Canon 70D. Micro battery life is only about 30-40 min., and that's without a screen.

(but you're right, it still should have a screen even if the battery life is awful...)
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Jan 18, 2018 9:25 pm

Why get stuck with a small, low res built in monitor screen you get charged extra for, while you can get the Micro sans LCD and pick the monitor that you like. Even the new Panny EVA1’s built in LCD is not that great, and the camera needs either or both a good EVF I.R decent monitor. The Pocket LCD was all but unusable for anything other than seeing the menus.
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Chris Chiasson

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 12:22 am

I agree, not adding a internal monitor to the Micro isn't that big of a deal. It's more of not having a monitor that we can control the camera with that I think is the real issue. Not having the ability built into the VA and VA 4K was a big disappointment. They should've build an external monitor for the Micro that allowed user control. Or at least add Blu-tooth and wifi to allow external control. That's why I hope version 2s will have USB-C, Blu-tooth, and wifi to allow use better controls then what the expansion port allows.

It's my biggest issue with the Micro Cine and VA. They should work together, but instead they work against each other. 1) The HDMI ports are on opposite sides, so instead of a straight curve from HDMI to HDMI, you gotta loop is around, and possibly damage the cables over time. And 2) Unable to externally record without risks. You can't have the menu on in the Micro, without risking it being recorded, and you can't have it off, without risking filming with the wrong settings on. It's just weird that Blackmagic didn't put thought into it. I think it's because the Studio version was what they really made the VA and VA 4K for, and the Cine was just an afterthought.

A simply fix for a 2.0 Cine, if they don't add some kind of system that shows the menu in the VA, but doesn't record it, is to add a black and white settings display strip like the GoPro Session has. And it just shows the current settings, memory, and if it's recording. That way, you can still externally record, but got something to confirm the settings with.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 7:53 am

Ryan, the heatsink issue is would be directly related to the technology used. There were few off the shelf options they could get at low volume at low cost in those days.

I was talking about a future micro with 4k.

Denny, a "$2..LCD" at that price it needn't cost a doller more, and you could turn it off and take it off when you don't want it. But I was suggesting that as something they could have done as a replacement for the pocket, and sell a little handle with mounts for it, like a cage. Admit it, wouldn't you have loved something like that? But that is yesterday/todays market. What will be the focus tomorrow, wuthultpoint like hydrogen and VR cameras and computational photography in post. Single large chip is still desirable, but smaller multipoint is maybe desirable to a segment of future buyers (plus you can leave your $20k lens kit at home).

Chris, good points. But the removable monitor I mentioned would be an external monitor.
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 pm

Yes guys, it would have been nice to have the VA or a dedicated Micro monitor that could use touch screen to change the camera settings, like the EVA1 does. But HDMI as implemented by BM does not support the two way communication needed for this. Panny uses a proprietary connection on the EVA1, something similar,are would be needed on the Micro Cinema Camera.

As for a handle, BM makes one, the Ursa Mini handle works great on the Micro, and gives you push to focus and push auto iris setting with MFT lenses, especially with a lens like the Panny Leica 12-60 parfocal Zoom. My setup inc,uses the BM UM grip, attached to WC Micro cage with Shijan’s Arri Rosette bracket (works great) and a Small HD 501 Monitor mounted on top the cage (got this before the SmallHD Focus came out). For camers control, I used Kim’s SBus Remote and am playing with Phil’s new OLG Lite SBus Remote.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 6:48 pm

I vote for an HDR reference monitor that's affordable, or an HDR, daylight-viewable field monitor ;)
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Jim Giberti

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 7:11 pm

I would hope that this is very much what BM is focused on.
They've developed great VAs and great, dare I say, one-of-a-kind small form factor cameras.

Given their background and strengths it would seem logical that adapting their HDMI protocol to allow the next logical step - the ability to control a new small form factor 4k camera - would be the next step.

From a business perspective they certainly know they'd have a captive market for these new gen VAs along with this camera that we all seem to want and expect.

I'm in the edit suite right now with a project we've been shooting the past couple of months - much of it with Micros. I look at it compared to GH5 footage that I tried as an alternative small camera system and, as always, the Micro footage just outshines it.

Unfortunately I keep trying to find that small camera, holy grail and all I get is great interfaces and technology but the image still doesn't compare.

So please BM relieve us of the " best image but worst camera" experience and just take ownership of this market once and for all.
Last edited by Jim Giberti on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Craig Seeman

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 7:32 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:
I'm in the edit suite right now with a project we've been shooting the past couple of months - much of it with Micros. I look at it compared to GH5 footage that I tried as an alternative small camera system and, as always, the Micro footage just outshines it.

Unfortunately I keep trying to find that small camera, holy grail and all I get is great interfaces and technology but the image still doesn't compare.

So please BM relieve us of the " best image but worst camera experience" comaprison and just take ownership of this market once and for all.


I'm sure a lot of Pocket owners are taking a very close look at the GH5s.
4K (not just UHD) and possibly less rolling shutter may be important for stabilizing shots. At least a modestly usable autofocus and an all I-Frame codec help. 12 stops of dynamic range may be a little shot but just a little. I really want a small 4K camera from BMD but there comes a point where the weight of other improvements are a factor for some jobs.
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Stu Aitken

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 8:03 pm

the sensible thing would be to use Bluetooth and or a physical cable attachment that plugs into your phone I think for the micro - then just have an app for controlling the camera, problem solved.

for the VA, reverse engineering proprietary HDMI connections doesn't sound like the way forwards to me - but again you you could easily do the control stuff with blue tooth - unlike the fictional "$2" external LCD Wayne keeps going on about, BT is relatively easy and cheap to add to electronics these days

the smallHD 500 monitors series come with little BT external remotes for example - possible route there if the two companies could talk to one another
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Howard Roll

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 pm

A phone is yet another device to manage, no thanks. CEC is why HDMI control from the VA was such a missed opportunity, it already exists. I had a little Canon HV30 DV camcorder a decade ago and I could cue the tape transport controls from my TV remote via CEC over HDMI. There's nothing to reverse engineer the protocol already exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_ ... cs_Control
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera

PostSat Jan 20, 2018 2:04 am

If you want to have control the Micro Camera from a a phone, Phill’s new OLG Remote Lite will give yiu a Blue Tooth pnone connectikns with most menu settings available and record Talley.

But I am with Noward on this, unless the camera is up a boom rig, why mess with the Phone application, when direct monitor control is so much quicker.
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostSat Jan 20, 2018 7:00 am

Stu, no fiction. What do you think $20+ cameras use, $20 LCD's?

If it has Bluetooth an update could allow the control you wish, if not a dangle and an update. But that has nothing to do with the reality of cheap LCD's for cheap products, which could be used minimalisticly (and with pivotal mount).

Denny, as BM is designing the hdmi interface in the camera and VA, they should be able to have designed it to control data over it, and output clean recordable HDMI. Maybe even with a firmware update.modern HDMI was designed to pass CEC remote control signals over it, and had an ethernet in the cable.

Howard, just read your post. Thanks.
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera

PostSat Jan 20, 2018 7:28 am

Wayne, yes they could, wish they had — but they didn’t.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 5:53 am

Denny, but they still can, if it can be done in firmware..
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Denny Smith

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Re: New Camera

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 6:09 am

No Wayne, it it is currently a hardware issue from what I understand, or BM would have done so with all the requests when the Micro came out.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 2:08 pm

Otherwise, notherwise. Is there any real evidence?
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Chris Chiasson

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Re: New Camera

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 9:13 pm

Craig Seeman wrote:
Jim Giberti wrote:
I'm in the edit suite right now with a project we've been shooting the past couple of months - much of it with Micros. I look at it compared to GH5 footage that I tried as an alternative small camera system and, as always, the Micro footage just outshines it.

Unfortunately I keep trying to find that small camera, holy grail and all I get is great interfaces and technology but the image still doesn't compare.

So please BM relieve us of the " best image but worst camera experience" comaprison and just take ownership of this market once and for all.


I'm sure a lot of Pocket owners are taking a very close look at the GH5s.
4K (not just UHD) and possibly less rolling shutter may be important for stabilizing shots. At least a modestly usable autofocus and an all I-Frame codec help. 12 stops of dynamic range may be a little shot but just a little. I really want a small 4K camera from BMD but there comes a point where the weight of other improvements are a factor for some jobs.


I myself am eyeing the GH5s for the lowlight improvements. With live events, you can't control the lighting, so having a huge boost there is a big plus. Sucks that In-Body Stabilization was lost, but paired with an stabilized lens doesn't make it that much of a lose. Plus weather proofing, audio and battery adapters, 4k, USB-C, duel SD cards, Anamorphic Video Mode, Blu-Tooth and Wifi, 240 frames, etc. And if you jump into the Sony Camp, the insane auto focus options, etc. It would be more worth it to me then a Pocket or a Micro, especially since I'm a one man band 99% of the time.

But a lot of these things Blackmagic can make a camera out of. They claim they can't fit it all in a Pocket form factor, and I say "Then make it bigger". I do think they can just make a camera within a GH5 form factor that people will want. I just think the sales of the 2.5 Cine are scaring them away. Which it shouldn't, because those sales were because the negatives of dealing with all the 2.5k's issues outweighed the positive image. But a new camera can prevent the outcome of the original Cine 2.5, with better functionality as well as visuals. It's why I hope Blackmagic has a new camera at NAB on the smaller end of things, and not just an improved Ursa Mini Pro.
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 4:35 am

75 days and counting down to NAB 2018.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 4:55 am

Hm. I should start looking into travel arrangements and my press pass for NAB and CineGears...
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 10:06 am

Chris Chiasson wrote:But a lot of these things Blackmagic can make a camera out of. They claim they can't fit it all in a Pocket form factor, and I say "Then make it bigger"


I agree. But we had one of those, but people had issues with it. So, we got a mini. But, doing it right is fine.

One was of my old design proposals is to design was a rotatable head, so you can turn it from still camera format to camcorder mode. You can even position the head midway along the body for use with physically longer lens like eng lens, so that it is centrally positioned in a digital still use. This is more like a micro head mounted on a VA with rotatable display. You can move the head into different positions. Panasonic doesn't have anything this good.

But seriously, it can be done in something smaller than a pocket in 4kp50.

Somebody is going to wake up and realise they can do a good came)ra for less than $500 4kp50/60 12 bit 14 stop+.
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Greg Lee

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 2:48 am

I'd bet on a RED Scarlet/ARRI Alexa Mini- sized body for their next cam. Half the size of the URSA Mini, but much bigger than the Pocket.
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Steven Abrams

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 4:28 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Somebody is going to wake up and realise they can do a good came)ra for less than $500 4kp50/60 12 bit 14 stop+.

What sensor is giving you 4K/60 at 12bit with 14 stops that's not a custom design or available to the "public"?
How are you getting 14 stops with 12bit linear in the first place? Most of the sensors out there with an "HDR" mode produce absolute crap in those modes (I've seen it) unless doing a dual gain readout or scaling down and not providing source resolution.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 10:44 pm

The OLD series of sensor released after the one on the micro studio does. The newer version of the one in the mini does, but the other one will likely have less heat.

Steven, linear range and bits don't have to be the same. You can evenly linearly divide up 1 meter by 100 as you can ten Centermeters, just one is going be even units if 1cm and the other 1mm.

Do you understand how different forms of HDR works? If you do it carefully and don't push it, it's fine. 2 stops is better than 6. But if you are not picky, you have extra stops up your sleeve in case of documentary.
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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 8:41 am

... a Micro Cinema with 4K, a better dynamic range (15 stops) ... and that's all !!
Success will be assured!!
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timbutt2

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 4:36 pm

Here's a prediction: HDR Monitoring.

So the Blackmagic EVF will probably get an update so that it is OLED HDR. Then the URSA Mini LCDs will get HDR updates. Next the Video Assists.

Why? Because HDR is quickly becoming the standard. All TVs are now being manufactured with HDR. The Cinema is getting more 4K HDR projectors.

From the ARRI HDR FAQ:
Should one monitor HDR on set?
When shooting for an HDR deliverable, it is a good idea to monitor HDR on set so issues with the HDR images (that may not be of concern in SDR) can be identified early on. HDR monitoring has to be done with an HDR monitor, as it is impossible to see the effect of HDR on an SDR monitor.

Source: http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/learn/hdr_faq/
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Jay Soriano

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Re: New Camera

PostSun Jan 28, 2018 5:08 pm

Can we expect some type of live webcast announcement at the Blackmagic Design Conference and Expo Feb 11-13?

http://www.blackmagicconference.com/
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Chris Chiasson

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 1:32 am

Jay Soriano wrote:Can we expect some type of live webcast announcement at the Blackmagic Design Conference and Expo Feb 11-13?

http://www.blackmagicconference.com/


I doubt it. Usually the expo is more on Post Production, then Principal Photography. Anything new with cameras will mostly likely be on the firmware side with the ones already on the market.
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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 1:42 am

From the homepage...

Live Production, Camera and Broadcast Update

Please join us at 10am PST on Thursday 1st February to hear about new developments in live production and broadcast!

Los Angeles 10am PST Thursday 1st February
New York 1pm EST Thursday 1st February
London 6pm GMT Thursday 1st February
Singapore 2am SGT Friday 2nd February
Tokyo 3am JST Friday 2nd February
Sydney 5am AEDT Friday 2nd February
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Wayne Steven

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 5:11 am

Does this suite live production cameras?
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 5:52 pm

It’s the placement of the comma in the title of the presentation that is most intriguing. We already know of recent items they’ve announced for Live Production and for Broadcast, but what’s with this ‘camera’ announcement? We shall see in 24 hours.


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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 6:18 pm

exactly Rick!!!! 8-)
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rick.lang

  • Posts: 8347
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: New Camera

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:15 pm

Okay, one new camera, tick that box. But I suspect they’re not done yet. The URSA Mini Broadcast is more of a hybrid of an URSA Mini Pro and the Studio Camera. Still it is an impressive new package. I really like that Grant gave us an extensive walk through of the new camera and their new accessories for it. So we have time to digest this appetizer, before the entrée is served. Anyone feeling ravenous?

Waiting for the next course at or just before NAB 2018.


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Rick Lang
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Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8441
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: New Camera

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:25 pm

Time will tell, my friend.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 782
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: New Camera

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 11:07 pm

Yes, finally. A nice package, except more color, more latitude, more bits. A package I've been hoping for further years.

But going on all the stills of usage on network TV shows, and news in public, I find it hard to believe there wasn't any rumour information floating around to report here. :).

Well, we will see if next, everybody misses camera men walking around in public with 8k BM eng cameras shaped like giant hammers!
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