Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 3:43 am

I still keep first RAW BMPCC samples downloaded from EOSHD article. I mostly learn on the footage captured from Pocket a lot before i get my own camera.
If new Pocket 4K sensor don't allows similar dynamic range and Expose flexibility, probably i'll skip any camera with similar Sony sensor. We need to see RAW samples from new 4K sensor.

BMPCC RAW, ISO800

Image


BMPCC RAW, ISO800, EXP 3, Gain 0.85, Contrast 1.1, LogC timeline. Chroma Noise Reduction, Sharpen.

Image
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 5:22 am

Que Thompson wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:Just want everyone to know.... :D


Except the 4.6k (I presume the 96fps might have been related). But I think a lot of us guessed the latest SD card, beating the latest GH, in at least another pocket or bigger (stills shape without reflex mirror) at under $2k if they had any sense, 5 years ago.


I don't see any screenshots so I don't believe you. ;) I just having a little fun anyway.


Me too. It was just sort of obviouse this sort of thing was going to come. It's like predicting winter or summer will come.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 5:29 am

Dmitry, there are jpegs out there, unless anybody wants to effectively start accusing the camera of taking lousy jpegs again.

But seriously. I think one, you are likely to get the light levels of the graded pocket shot without grading on the new one. But I don't know about the solid nice colour.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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MarcusWolschon

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 5:47 am

...or how it handles IR in direct sunlight.
The original Pocket would visibly distort the colour of skin and trees/grass on a hot summer noon when shooting a music video with an ND4.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 5:53 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Dmitry, there are jpegs out there, unless anybody wants to effectively start accusing the camera of taking lousy joefs again.

But seriously. I think one, you are likely to get the lighting levels of the graded pocket shot without grading on the new one. But I don't know about the solid nice colour.


Additional lighting have nothing to expansion of dynamic range from shadows.

Here is another sample from web shoot on BMMCC in daylight conditions.

Original image ISO800
Image

Graded image ISO 800, Expose 2.0, Gain 0.95, Contrast 1.1. LogC timeline. Dynamic range expanded from original 13 to new 15 stops.
Image
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Sean van Berlo

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 7:38 am

You didn't expand the dynamic range there, you lifted the shadows, but the fact that the information was there is what gives the camera those 13 stops of dynamic range. The low signal to noise ratio that gives it 13 stops of dynamic range makes the lift possible. I don't think some folks realize how much 13 stops already is.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 7:40 am

It seems GH5s bakes ISO value after RW2 to DNG conversion. Similar images may be very noisy in shadows or not too noisy at all. Resolve also handle DNG files from GH5s not too perfect. This confused me.

ISO160 sample from this test article http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/ ... ew_images/ That Sony sensor looks very interesting now.

Original:
Image

Graded, Expose 5, Gain 0.75, contrast 1.2
Image
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 9:27 am

My appology Dmitry, I meant the levels in the image.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 3:02 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Me too. It was just sort of obviouse this sort of thing was going to come. It's like predicting winter or summer will come.


I know right! It’s like predicting that you’ll come in the forum and be a party pooper. Duh! Everybody knows that already! Gosh. In the future I’ll spare you the torture.


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 4:32 pm

MarcusWolschon wrote:Raw formats would hopefully contain ADC values, current camera settings and other metadata.
Then the raw processor - knowing this manufacturer's raw format -
can select the right function to turn the non-linear ADC response of each subpixel
into a linear intensity value including the interdependencies between nearby subpixels of other colors
and differences of these curves based on camera settings (such as ISO or sensor temperature)
or even image content (such as average image brightness, sensor saturation or blooming next to saturated pixels)
That conversion you called "special math" would be the so called "color science".


First of all, there is no "nonlinear ADC response", that is the whole point of digital image acquisition, where the response of a CCD/CMOS pixel is characterized by a dark frame (bias + read noise + dark current) and responsivity. And ADC are extremely linear (otherwise it would beside the point).

E.g. the old BMPCC and BMMCC do have extremely linear response in the CDNG values, only the R vs. G vs. B channels have different gains (otherwise the red channel would be wasteful with the 12 bit quantization).

Why else does every raw processor for still cameras need to first get support for
a new camera model before the raw format of that camera can be interpreted?


Because that way, you can extort for paid updates, and continued subscription payments.

Otherwise, DCraw e.g. does not any require "support" unless there is a major breaking of the format. All information, including the linear color space transformation (like the ACES IDT) can be stored in the EXIF. And yes, BMD's CDNG does store it, for two illuminants, D65 and A.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 4:46 pm

Sean, thanks for the clarification requesting datarates to match the gradability of the BMPCC4K Sony sensor in comparison to the 4.6K sensor. The CinemaDNG raw implementation by BMD from both sensors should grade similarly with BMD’s colour science applied except for scenes that will be affected by the difference in dynamic range.

In both sensors, any flavour of the raw will be 12bit log and in Resolve you’ll be able to grade with a great deal of flexibility. You’ll even be able to generate ProRes 444/XQ 12bit deliverables if you want.

The same cannot be said if you’re going to record ProRes in camera as the camera appears to only record 10bit up to ProResHQ. That’s somewhat baked in and still can be graded of course but it’s more important you get closer to the temperature and tint and look you want in each clip.

If it’s feasible for you, I’d highly recommend people record in CinemaDNG in DCI 4K or UHD regardless of the resolution of your DaVinci Resolve deliverables. And use ACEScct!

Next best option ProRes 422 HQ. Still will give you great results in most situations.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 6:33 pm

Updated micro cam type, seems interesting.. http://www.z-cam.com/e2/
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 6:57 pm

Interesting.
I didn't know that you could store an ACES Input-Transform function in CDNG.
I guess only software with support for an ACES Color Space and input transfer functions can make use of that and FCPX or Lightroom would have to ignore that.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Last thoughts. GH5s RW2 converted to DNG are very strange, so they can not be used as true test. Also i notice that extreme highlights are always hard clipped even on under exposed scenes. Never see the same on my own BMMCC footage. So until we see real DNG samples from Pocket 4K i give up with those tests :)

For example here s a sample (not mine) from Pocket Camera shoot in similar light conditions as a building above. It is just ISO800 without any shadows boost. As you can see dynamic range is really huge compere to GH5s uncorrected sample i posted earlier.

Image
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PixelMan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostTue Apr 17, 2018 11:41 pm

I am not 100% sure either, what Grant was trying to suggest re ProRes Raw in his NAB interview but listening between the lines I suspect the answer is, this new pocket 4K camera and Resolve 15 were in development early enough that ProRes Raw caught them by surprise (mid-cycle), and so he was trying to downplay its significance somewhat. He's a businessman right? He doesn't want people to not adopt his brand new product because it's missing the two newest ProRes options. That or, it would require another licensing fee to Apple (not sure if ProRes requires that?) and he doesn't want to pay it.

But as far as I can tell... other raw formats + BMD's color science is just a different path to the same end result as with ProRes RAW + LUT. The difference is ProRes Raw is going to result in smaller, self-contained files and a much friendlier workflow than CinemaDNG. Unless I'm missing something.

My hope is by the time BMD release this camera or before end of year they offer a firmware or other update — as well as a Resolve update — that provides support for ProRes Raw, because I can't see a single downside to it. Sure, it's not pure sensor data, it's basically lossless compression like RED 3:1 or 6:1 depending on the version of ProRes Raw you use, but who cares. Compared to the ProRes formats the cameras already supports, the two new ProRes RAW formats should provide a better opportunity for efficient workflow (including color grading) and better color in general, all else being equal. Why wouldn't they include it?

Worst case I guess we could do an HDMI raw feed to one of the new Atomos recorders. Would feel kind of redundant / like a waste of money though when BMD could easily implement this themselves. If they can do the other ProRes formats, I don't see why they couldn't do the ProRes Raw formats.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 5:24 am

Que Thompson wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Me too. It was just sort of obviouse this sort of thing was going to come. It's like predicting winter or summer will come.


I know right! It’s like predicting that you’ll come in the forum and be a party pooper. Duh! Everybody knows that already! Gosh. In the future I’ll spare you the torture.


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Don't worry yourself too much Que, you didn't poop too much. The blindingly obvious is not too much against the flow of enjoyment.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:10 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:GH5s RW2 converted to DNG are very strange, Also i notice that extreme highlights are always hard clipped even on under exposed scenes.

For example here s a sample (not mine) from Pocket Camera shoot in similar light conditions as a building above.


You can't really compare unrelated images like that. But more importantly, the real magic isn't necessarily in the sensor itself, even if that constitutes the foundation. Even if the sensor itself has its hard specs, I'm sure surrounding circuitry and components (that might change between manufactures) will impact final performance.

And even THEN, I'd say the real mojo begins in the translation of the linear information to each manufacturer's 'color science'. Here you have your non-linear encoding and color transformations. In the case of raw data, this will take place in post, but if you go with ProRes it will happen in camera.

I'm much more interested in the image data after it's gone through the OETF and it has been encoded non-linearly. I think RED has found a very good solution with their IPPT 2, where when you choose Gamut and Gamma and your footage comes in with no clipping.

Importing BMD's 'Interior House' footage into Resolve 15 with BMD color and BMD film gamma shows severe clipping. The data is there, of course, but I STRONGLY encourage BMD to make 'project settings' available that import CDNGs with no clipping—without user input, like messing with raw sliders. There should be a film gamma for BMD footage that results in images similar to REDWideGamut and Log3G10 as a starting point. Not because it's difficult to wrangle the data back, but I think there's a benefit to getting everyone to the same starting point when it comes to image evaluation, LUTs and other things that are based off of a constant.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:56 am

I'm just eager to see something finally come out. The months of delay unfortunately doesn't help anything much (plus an interesting observation is the m4/3rds 4kp30 E1 camera head you can get for $199 sometimes, is over 100,000 iso. Which is whoo when you think of it. If only the rest of that camera was that good.

I was hoping the original pocket might get cleared out at a cheap price, to buy it if I didn't like the new one. But the pocket has just disappeared according to another thread.

I'm also really eager to see if a new micro will come latter in the year. I'm very eager to check one out to use with a phone as the controller.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 10:22 am

Oh well. Turns out I got through to light, and they not only decided to incorporate 4k video, now it's going be full frame 4k with three focal lengths soon (hopefully they can calculate inbetween lengths).
https://light.co/camera
I doubt it will be as good as a cheaper BM pocket 4K, but the photo capability is nice.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Oh well. Turns out I got through to light, and they not only decided to incorporate 4k video, now it's going be full frame 4k with three focal lengths soon (hopefully they can calculate inbetween lengths).
https://light.co/camera
I doubt it will be as good as a cheaper BM pocket 4K, but the photo capability is nice.


Maybe their plan is to just capture all video streams and process in post. That would be a pretty heavy computational burden to place on the device if performed on the fly.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 12:21 pm

It's interesting, they apparently invested heavily in actually making on camera ASICs. That's expensive and needed to maximise customised performance. But just to do 4k like this, it isn't needed (there are powerful options, but maybe not when this was conceived). So something is up, and I read they are saying a phone is coming with the technology (that hydrogen thing?).
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 5:35 pm

FWIW I caught something on this site...
https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/04/06/ ... w-is-here/

... about the different options in FCPX for working with ProRes RAW footage. Seems like at least one method doesn't involve the LUT thing Grant was talking about. So maybe there's a way to get ProRes RAW files without doing the LUT workflow he seemed skeptical of? Still not 100% sure I followed his logic on the whole thing though so I could be missing something.

"There are three primary ways to use ProRes RAW with Final Cut Pro [and presumably Resolve?] in your post-production workflow:
• Using Log Conversion with Built-in Camera LUTs
• Using Log Conversion with Custom LUT Effects
Grading Directly Without LUTs"

Assuming others here feel the addition of ProRes RAW to their new 4K pocket cam and Resolve could only be a good thing (i.e. more options) but curious if others are having second thoughts. I guess we'll have to wait and see what people say about editing with ProRes Raw in general (on any platform).
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Danny Johnston

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 7:28 pm

A simple question for all: Can the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K record raw (not merely ProRes) to an external ssd via the USB port?
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PixelMan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:04 pm

Danny Johnston wrote:A simple question for all: Can the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K record raw (not merely ProRes) to an external ssd via the USB port?


Raw data stream would be via the HDMI port to a recorder, rather than via USB to a plain SSD.

Random recorder example: https://www.atomos.com/shogun-inferno

(I don't know if that above would eventually support the BMD 4K pocket camera, just showing a typical recorder.)
Last edited by PixelMan on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:15 pm

"Amazingly some people think that the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K is vapourware. It is actually very real indeed!" RSN

PC4K.jpg
PC4K.jpg (80.85 KiB) Viewed 1877 times


https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... eal-indeed
Last edited by Craig Marshall on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PixelMan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:20 pm

lol why would anyone think it's vaporware when they were showing physical samples to people at NAB? I mean if it still doesn't exist in retail outlets a year from now, OK. It's vaporware. Until then no reason to think that.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:35 pm

PixelMan wrote:Raw data stream would be via the HDMI port to a recorder, rather than via USB to a plain SSD.


External raw recording would be through the usb-c port, as noted in the BMD product information page (but then, why bother to read anything?). HDMI I believe carries a 10 bit monitoring signal.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:51 pm

John Paines wrote:...External raw recording would be through the usb-c port...

I noted that point. What sustainable data rates can be achieved through USB-C to current portable SSD drives?
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 9:55 pm

Craig Marshall wrote:
John Paines wrote:...External raw recording would be through the usb-c port...

I noted that point. What sustainable data rates can be achieved through USB-C to current portable SSD drives?

The USB-C interface is faster than the SATA 6G interface, so I would expect performance to be limited by some combination of the recording workload and flash memory (300-500MB/s).
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 11:26 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:I'm just eager to see something finally come out. The months of delay unfortunately doesn't help anything much (plus an interesting observation is the m4/3rds 4kp30 E1 camera head you can get for $199 sometimes, is over 100,000 iso. Which is whoo when you think of it. If only the rest of that camera was that good.

I was hoping the original pocket might get cleared out at a cheap price, to buy it if I didn't like the new one. But the pocket has just disappeared according to another thread.

I'm also really eager to see if a new micro will come latter in the year. I'm very eager to check one out to use with a phone as the controller.


Yeah, looks like they silently discontinued the original Pocket Camera. Which is sad, since I was hoping they’d at least cut the price down before killing it off, but at least they aren’t selling it next to the Pocket 4K still. That would be terrible considering how much you gain for just $300, with the only advantage being size. I predict the Micro is next, once they have Micro Cine 4K figured out, with USB-C as the new expansion port.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostWed Apr 18, 2018 11:49 pm

PixelMan wrote:lol why would anyone think it's vaporware when they were showing physical samples to people at NAB? I mean if it still doesn't exist in retail outlets a year from now, OK. It's vaporware. Until then no reason to think that.


They might think that because there are no sample files. A rather odd thing for a camera that is supposed to be done.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 12:25 am

BMD has been burned in the past more than once going from pre-production to production. Remember the supplier that didn’t think it was important to tell BMD that they were no longer using the sensor glass in the pre-production approved camera and went with another (inferior) supplier for the production run?

So this year they’re going with a carbon fibre polycarbonate moulded chassis. Lightweight, strong, innovative. It wouldn’t surprise me if they plan to spend a good deal of time ensuring this new material will take a beating and survive years of ultraviolet radiation, extreme temperature changes, exposure to some chemicals, and so on.


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 12:37 am

Agreed Rick, if they were well into that process I would have expected the demo units at NAB to be made of the new material, but they weren't. Again, another odd thing for a camera that is supposed to be done.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 1:21 am

Exactly. They should at least have one unit made of that newer material. However another interesting topic is dynamic range. Would shooting RAW at 800 iso and then bumping to 1600 iso in post be better than shooting at 1600 iso since that would activate the 3200 iso mode?
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 1:32 am

The lower base ISO is 400, the upper 3200, if I’m remembering correctly. Do I suspect ISO 1600 in camera will look very good compared to boosting 400 to 1600 in post. However that said, the 4.6K sensor can be boosted 4 stops and look very good.


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 1:34 am

rick.lang wrote:The lower base ISO is 400, the upper 3200, if I’m remembering correctly. Do I suspect ISO 1600 in camera will look very good compared to boosting 400 to 1600 in post. However that said, the 4.6K sensor can be boosted 4 stops and look very good.


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Dynamic range is less in the 3200 mode. That's why I'm wondering if shooting 1600 iso while in the 3200 mode is better or is it nicer to shoot 1600 iso while in the 400 iso mode? The reason I wonder is only RAW lets you do that as the switch is automatic at 1600.
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rick.lang

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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 1:37 am

Ah, I was only thinking you were thinking of noise. So you may have your answer. If the scene has 12-13 stops of dynamic range that is important to you, then shoot 400-800 boost in post. If the scene only has 10-11 stops, shoot at ISO 1600 and you’ll cover the lighting levels adequately and probably have less noise.

An awful lot of the scenes I see have that lower range of dynamic range. Maybe even only a half dozen stops at most. So the higher base range can be used without compromise in some situations.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 2:35 am

Chris Chiasson wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:I'm just eager to see something finally come out. The months of delay unfortunately doesn't help anything much (plus an interesting observation is the m4/3rds 4kp30 E1 camera head you can get for $199 sometimes, is over 100,000 iso. Which is whoo when you think of it. If only the rest of that camera was that good.

I was hoping the original pocket might get cleared out at a cheap price, to buy it if I didn't like the new one. But the pocket has just disappeared according to another thread.

I'm also really eager to see if a new micro will come latter in the year. I'm very eager to check one out to use with a phone as the controller.


Yeah, looks like they silently discontinued the original Pocket Camera. Which is sad, since I was hoping they’d at least cut the price down before killing it off, but at least they aren’t selling it next to the Pocket 4K still. That would be terrible considering how much you gain for just $300, with the only advantage being size. I predict the Micro is next, once they have Micro Cine 4K figured out, with USB-C as the new expansion port.


Well, at $500- clearence it would be rather usable :) But anyway, the two micros are due for upgrade. By the time the studio was announced there were greatly improved sister sensors announced. There was even a half descent 1/1.23 I think (they should do those to put on a VA, even several of them, to do the latest 3D stuff). So it is worth combining the two Microsoft into one s16 product. I suspect they would have custom ASIC plans underway by now which would allow recurring in a micro studio like head. I'll try to break this out to another post.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 2:36 am

rick.lang wrote:Ah, I was only thinking you were thinking of noise. So you may have your answer. If the scene has 12-13 stops of dynamic range that is important to you, then shoot 400-800 boost in post. If the scene only has 10-11 stops, shoot at ISO 1600 and you’ll cover the lighting levels adequately and probably have less noise.

An awful lot of the scenes I see have that lower range of dynamic range. Maybe even only a half dozen stops at most. So the higher base range can be used without compromise in some situations.


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Agree. Many scenes are actually less than 13 stops, so they don't need that shadows recovery trick (nice example that frame with dog)
Wide dynamic range useful in scenes with light reflections and bright light sources. But many people prefer slightly underexpose normal dynamic range scenes as well. It just adds more bits and tone range resolution to highlights, allows easier shape highlights knee in post. Details in tiny reflections on the objects makes things look more pleasant.
From tests i posted in other threads for BMMCC +2 stops Expose boost in post is a safe limit (this is ISO 3200). +3 stops boost possible (ISO 6400) with additional noise reduction. Further shadows boost is only limited by Fixed Pattern Noise.
All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 2:45 am

I noticed the Pocket 4K is light for its size compared to big still cameras. So, I wonder how much space is inside and if it is using more economical ASIC.

A way to figure out if it is relying on an Application Specific Integrated Circuit for most of the work, is to measure the expected battery life against the battery size. There should be done jump just from the latest fpga chips, but is there a huge jump in battery life per watt hour compared to the previous 4K cinema camera and the latest minis?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 2:51 am

On the pushing in post being useful depending on scene, I was thinking of that before. I would imagine that would be the case because unless you can compress up with enough bits to prevent errors, you ultimately hit the ceiling and start loosing stops.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 3:08 am

rick.lang wrote:BMD has been burned in the past more than once going from pre-production to production. Remember the supplier that didn’t think it was important to tell BMD that they were no longer using the sensor glass in the pre-production approved camera and went with another (inferior) supplier for the production run?

So this year they’re going with a carbon fibre polycarbonate moulded chassis. Lightweight, strong, innovative. It wouldn’t surprise me if they plan to spend a good deal of time ensuring this new material will take a beating and survive years of ultraviolet radiation, extreme temperature changes, exposure to some chemicals, and so on.


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They have databases for that. Somebody develops the material, it gets put in the database with its characteristics. Then somebody comes along and enters the characteristics they are looking for, and picks a list to further research. Even Apple would do a lot less original technology than people would think. They stand on the shoulders of giants before them. A lot of product development is painting by numbers then interfacing. The coding itself night be more original if coded fresh. The logistics and administration of seeing it through to a product is great though. It's a group effort, starting with the feet that get you there going up to the hands that do the work, and going out to the head that puts it together. But the feet are giants who came before, the legs and knees wobbled it around a bit, the torso bends the direction and the arms snd hands bend, wobble and whacked it into reality, which the organisation on top guiding and riding it to fruition. In the organisation are feet too, otherwise that organisation is going fall over and not be able to stand on the giant. Running round on the giant trying to figure out what to do.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 3:31 am

Wayne, at long last we can understand a post. I just knew it would happen one day!




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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 9:33 am

The issue is often in the hearer. That is why so many great thinkers are under appreciated and people rather listen to Donald Trump.

Maybe I should try to do more complex posts, and less obviously simple to understand well explained ones, and people will think they are simple, and that Donald Trump is our biggest genius president of all Time.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 8:11 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:The issue is often in the hearer. That is why so many great thinkers are under appreciated and people rather listen to Donald Trump...


No doubt about it, the problem is often with the one listening. A great communicator finds the way to be understood without sacrificing the message, as you did in the prior post.


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PixelMan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 9:45 pm

John Paines wrote:
PixelMan wrote:Raw data stream would be via the HDMI port to a recorder, rather than via USB to a plain SSD.


External raw recording would be through the usb-c port, as noted in the BMD product information page (but then, why bother to read anything?). HDMI I believe carries a 10 bit monitoring signal.


Apologies to the original poster of that question and Thanks for the snark, always makes forums like this better.

You are right that I missed the all-important "Type-C" descriptor in the specs, which likely means it's a 10Gbps connection. All the USB ports on the cameras that I'm familiar with (until now) were not 10Gbps ports, and so not usually a good choice for sensor data output. Times changing, bad assumption on my part, etc.

Also I've seen plenty of rigs where you can output uncompressed video to recorders via HDMI, but that may not be the case with this camera (doesn't specify if it's just for monitoring). If it's 10-bit output as you say ordinarily I'd say there's no compression going on there but I realize BMD has a lot of workflow "magic" going on in their devices so I'll take your word on that.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 9:48 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:
PixelMan wrote:lol why would anyone think it's vaporware when they were showing physical samples to people at NAB? I mean if it still doesn't exist in retail outlets a year from now, OK. It's vaporware. Until then no reason to think that.


They might think that because there are no sample files. A rather odd thing for a camera that is supposed to be done.


Except that it's not done. If release is sometime in September (or later), it may not even be in mass production yet. Either way I guess they could offer sample files but if they feel it's not yet where it needs to be to show those samples to the public... I could see them just showing the camera at NAB and to a few select beta testers. I don't know BMD's [track record] WRT to hardware but seeing as how they just announced it (maybe not for the first time?) seems sorta harsh to jump to the vaporware conclusion before the first self-imposed deadline of September has passed.

Not trying to be argumentative, original comment just struck me as odd timing.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostThu Apr 19, 2018 10:09 pm

Pixel, BM has a past of continuous missed ship dates for cameras that they said were done. Grant in his NAB press conference at 25:55 said the following, "the product is finished but we didn't want to come to another NAB without answering the question, 'what are you gonna do with the pocket cinema camera', particularly when it's back at the office, basically finished, we really just need to run the manufacturing process to get it into production"



So they are saying it is done. Usually a "done" camera has sample video available.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 20, 2018 12:36 am

Savannah Miller wrote:
rick.lang wrote:The lower base ISO is 400, the upper 3200, if I’m remembering correctly. Do I suspect ISO 1600 in camera will look very good compared to boosting 400 to 1600 in post. However that said, the 4.6K sensor can be boosted 4 stops and look very good.


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Dynamic range is less in the 3200 mode. That's why I'm wondering if shooting 1600 iso while in the 3200 mode is better or is it nicer to shoot 1600 iso while in the 400 iso mode? The reason I wonder is only RAW lets you do that as the switch is automatic at 1600.


I thought dual ISO means it has two "native ISO's" which means best DR at those settings. At either base ISO, you should have 13 stops around that.
Since DR in 3200 mode is less the higher you increase your EI, discretion with the scene will determine which mode to be in. The high ISO's in 3200 try to protect the shadows. I would say shoot 3200 to keep the shadows clean.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

PostFri Apr 20, 2018 12:39 am

Michael, there’s a graphic from Grant’s presentation at NAB 2018 that shows the base 3200 has less dynamic range than base 400.



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