Ursa Micro? Please!!

Now I know the name Ursa Micro has been thrown about a bit to describe the new pocket 4k specs but it's been well noted that the pocket 4k is actually similar in dimensions to the original cinema camera minus the SDI port.

I've brought this up in another thread and the pocket 4k looks amazing but a camera that I personally would love to see in the line up is...

The Panasonic AF100 errr I mean the Ursa Micro.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... hirds.html

The name has a ring to it, it not only denotes it's small form factor but also it's micro 4/3rd size sensor to not confuse people thinking that they're purchasing a s35 camera.

I'd probably remove the rear EVF and add a side handle plus give it a black magic make over but it has the ease of use of a god.

- Built in ND's (invaluable)
- SDI
- HDMI
- Dual card slots
- Large but well placed batteries
- Full XLR
- MFT electronic mount
- Audio Dials
- Multiple buttons

You get the drift, a camera that just doesn't need anything else if you don't feel you need to bring it. A camera easy to use as a single operator.

Now I don't know anything about what's inside the pocket 4k but I feel like it's guts could easily fit inside the dimensions of the panasoinc AF100, probably with better air flow. You wouldn't need to really change it's specs, 120p is fantastic, 4k dci also fantastic. However I do wonder what could be achieved with more cooling? Maybe no crop factor on 120p? That'd surely increase the size and price so it's unnecessary.

Here's a quote from a review of the panasoinc AF100 "In short, the camera is impressive in every way except for the video it produces."
Put BM sensor tech in it and we've got ourselves one amazing camera.

So please please please BMD! Make this camera a reality.

They won't do it. Blackmagic seems to prioritize cinematic image quality, and so far based on specs alone, this sensor will likely not be better than the 4.6K fairchild sensor, so I don't see them building another camera with this sensor other than maybe a v2 Micro Cinema camera with this sensor.

Assuming an an entirely new camera design with built-in ND's, etc. I would expect the camera to cost between $2000-3000. I can't imagine Blackmagic wants to charge that much for a camera with this sensor. Sure it's better in low-light due to the backlit design and dual native ISO, but I don't think Blackmagic cares about low-light as much.

Wasn't the original cinema camera 3k with the same dynamic range at 13 stops? Not to mention with a smaller sensor.

I doubt BM would ever pick a sensor they didn't think they could get a cinematic image out of. Even the pockets s16 was a crazy choice but the image you could create was outstanding.

The ursa form factor is obviously the way to go if you look at many manufacturers and the pocket 4k sensor has a lot the ursa doesn't.

Savannah, the URSA Mini Broadcast Camera has claimed to have 12-stops and BMD has put that sensor in the URSA Mini form factor. So I don’t know if the 13-stop sensor in the Pocket4K would be ruled out in a URSA Micro form factor.

Is the chassis of the AF100 metal or plastic at 2.9 lbs? So build the URSA Micro with that carbon fibre polycarbonate hybrid chassis for even greater weight savings over the URSA Mini.

I like some of the specs of the Pocket4K, but I’m not really happy about the pseudo-DSLR form factor with only two attachment points given I need to use rails on it.

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I tend to think that the form factor has to do with cost.

Grant Petty's philosophy is to put a really affordable, good quality camera in the hands of everyone who wants one.

A PCB with a a sensor on one side and a monitor on the other must possibly cut down on cost of manufacture.
Essentially the BMPCC4K is a 5" Video Assist with a sensor and lens mount.

Rick, the AF100 is a combo of metal (cast aluminum?) with polycarbonate body around this. It is very light without any thing attached to it, but once add thr large AF100/IDX battery and a decent lens, and a monitor or EVF, it get heavy quickly. The AF100 works well on a tripod, but is not very easy to adapt to a shoulder mount, unless you use something like the new Zacuto Univ. Shoulder mount/Vet plate ($700).

The Ursa Mini Pro body is not much bigger, just a little longer, and slightly wider. I will see if I can get a photo of the two together on Monday/Tuesday and post it here. I gave up waiting on a new MFT format AF100/Ursa Mini Pro style MFT sensor camera. Panny went to the dark side with its S35 EVA1 using the fixed EF mount, and this csmera is not better than a UM Pro and costs $8K for the body alone!

I decided to stick with S16/1-inch format, and got a Ursa Broadcast (Mini Pro body with souped up Micro Studio sensor) and the new color rev. Take the B4 Mount off, add the PL mount, and you got a great little camera. Only down side is, it is not the MFT mount.
Cheers

The original BMCC was $3K until they dropped the price a few weeks later to $2K. That was their first camera, and since then their prices have dropped a lot. The Ursa Broadcast is a $3495 camera, but it's a fair price relative to other cameras as it has a lot of features that the Micro Studio 4K does not. I can't imagine them selling a rehoused Pocket 4K camera with ND filters for twice as much.

I don't get it.

What about the Ursa mini / UMP doesn't do what you want already ?

It's basically the same size.
The AF 100 was 6.4 x 7.7 x 11.4
Ursa Mini is 8.2 x 7.6 x 5.8

Ursa does pretty much everything else better....

Other than being an MFT mount ?

What do you do with all the MFT lenses that won't cover the 4.6K sensor ?

JB

Exactly, so using a MFT mount on the 4.6 sensor is a non starter, or you end up shooting in a window mode. Anyway, the MFT mount is too small doe thr 4.6senslr anyway.
A MFT sensor like in the new Pocket 4K would work. But, that requires yet another version of the Ursa Mini Pro, but the MFT FFD is very short, so is the front lens turret will need to be changed also.
Cheers

I don't get it.

What about the Ursa mini / UMP doesn't do what you want already ?

It's basically the same size.
The AF 100 was 6.4 x 7.7 x 11.4
Ursa Mini is 8.2 x 7.6 x 5.8

Ursa does pretty much everything else better....

Other than being an MFT mount ?

What do you do with all the MFT lenses that won't cover the 4.6K sensor ?

JB

My thinking is mostly in the price John. Ultimately the ursa mini pro is the better camera but it requires better accessories to go along with it, expensive batteries, expensive tripod, expensive stabilizer etc. I feel that BM would be able to get the weight closer to the pocket 4k than to the ursa mini pro, with it's main upside being the dual native with extended iso for documentary or budget indie shooting.

You'd save on initial cost of the camera body, mft lenses are generally cheaper or you can adapt vintage etc, light weight means a light triptop which is cheaper, go with a sony-npf battery and they'd be quite cheap.

It can really turn into the price range of getting a new DSLR but instead you get a full cinema camera experience.

With the pocket at 1.3k I'd say a price in the ball park of 2-2.5k would let anyone have a true cinema experience. It really would be a large price difference to having an ursa mini pro package.

But good points have been made on why the pocket 4k form factor allowed it to be created so cheap.

Anything comparable atm is 6-7k and up, at that price point many people would never consider it an option.

The original BMCC was $3K until they dropped the price a few weeks later to $2K. That was their first camera, and since then their prices have dropped a lot. The Ursa Broadcast is a $3495 camera, but it's a fair price relative to other cameras as it has a lot of features that the Micro Studio 4K does not. I can't imagine them selling a rehoused Pocket 4K camera with ND filters for twice as much.

Why not if people would buy it? You pretty much take any inconveniences left for the pocket 4k, nd's, batteries into an in body solution. I'd pay 1k extra for that honestly.

Most people would rather own two Pocket 4K cameras vs. one more expensive body with a tilting screen and built-in ND filters.

It would require them to design a brand new body design and lens turret that would never be used again on any other model of camera. I feel like the Kinefinity Terra 4K is an odd camera with the body design and accessories is too professional for what images the sensor produces. Likewise, I don't feel this pocket camera is not a replacement for the Ursa Mini Pro and the body it sits in is already very good. If they can add ND filters and make a V2, that would be the most I'd ever see them doing with this sensor.

My thinking is mostly in the price John. Ultimately the ursa mini pro is the better camera but it requires better accessories to go along with it, expensive batteries, expensive tripod, expensive stabilizer etc.

but....

You're asking for everything an Ursa mini 4.6K has except with an MFT mount for half the price they currently sell for ?

What features would you shed to have it for that price ?

JB

My thinking is mostly in the price John. Ultimately the ursa mini pro is the better camera but it requires better accessories to go along with it, expensive batteries, expensive tripod, expensive stabilizer etc.

but....

You're asking for everything an Ursa mini 4.6K has except with an MFT mount for half the price they currently sell for ?

What features would you shed to have it for that price ?

JB

Well I'd have to assume that if you can sell the internals of the pocket 4k for 1.3k then the internals of the ursa mini pro cost significantly more. So this camera would use the cheaper internals, cheaper sensor, cheaper heat sink (i believe the ursa mini has quite the beefy heat sink), most likely cheaper XLR preamps.

I feel it's still different enough of a camera to justify the cheaper price. You gain ND's, an extra XLR port and different form factor over the pocket 4k. Now I don't technically know how much it would cost to engineer ND's into the MFT mount, I assume that and designing the body would be the most costly but a 2k-2.5k price bump over the 1.3k of the pocket using the same internals but adding in full size XLR, extra cards slots and nd's could potentially amount to a 1.2k difference?

Now If they'd fear competition with the ursa mini pro is a different thing but I think the difference in s35 sensor, dynamic range and V-mount battery systems keep the cameras more to work hand in hand than as competition. Plus the UMP can do prores 444 which is quite valuable to high end productions.

If there's anything that I would like, I would want to see a Microish version of the Pocket 4K camera without a screen. Maybe it could be bigger than the current micro cams, but that would make a very good crash camera for tight spaces if 7 inches is still too wide. And if they build it in a box-shape, they can maybe increase the cooling just enough to squeeze 4K 120fps like the Z-cam E2. Prores 4:4:4 would be amazing too.

Add in Built-in ND filters and that's a worthy upgrade for $3000ish that will be different enough from the Pocket 4K that wouldn't be nearly as difficult to design. It would be the worlds best crash camera / cine action cam.

Whether or not it would sell enough to make it worth manufacturing is another story entirely.

camera when it first came out! Expecting a similar camera with the new sensor doe under $3K is a little unrealistic.
Cheers

camera when it first came out! Expecting a similar camera with the new sensor doe under $3K is a little unrealistic.
Cheers

Well the Ursa Mini Pro basically came out right after the 4.6K became available

How many people were angry about that?

Considering camera development cycles, if there is are more cameras with this sensor, they're already designing them now.

camera when it first came out! Expecting a similar camera with the new sensor doe under $3K is a little unrealistic.
Cheers

Well the Ursa Mini Pro basically came out right after the 4.6K became available

How many people were angry about that?

Considering camera development cycles, if there is are more cameras with this sensor, they're already designing them now.

That'd be my guess too, so I wanted to get my two cents in early on a camera that I'd like to own.

The Pocket 4k looks amazing but I really don't want to fiddle with ND's, try to rig a battery somewhere which becomes hard with a rear monitor or come up with a ssd solution on such a small body with little real estate.

I wouldn't mind a little box version at all but my big gripe with the current micro is the controls and would prefer a system like the Kinefinity over the current micro. Having to fork out for a monitor is also a downside.

Well the Ursa Mini Pro basically came out right after the 4.6K became available

How many people were angry about that?

I may have received the first URSA Mini 4.6K PL mount camera in Canada. Given the context of the time, early April 2016 a few days before NAB 2016, I had to confirm with my vendor, Annex Pro, that I still wanted the camera and related gear, given no one knew what would be coming next. I mulled over all the options for a few seconds and confirmed! At that time I had zero pro gear, just Nikon F and EF-S lenses, a few stills cameras, and a Canon HV20 camcorder.

Quickly Howard Roll and Denny Smith pointed me to a Fujinon HA20x7.8B M10 B4 mount zoom and I was ‘in business’ so to speak with Denny’s help visiting us here in Victoria. Shortly afterwards I started my collection of SLR Magic APO PL primes thanks to John Brawley’s first review in January 2016. John, Denny, Andrew Chan (SLR Magic), Frank Glencairn, Ketch Rossi, and many other forum members have provided generous guidance on the forums and in person before and after that purchase as I continue to build a quality kit.

When I’m on a shoot, the most common remark I hear: “Now that’s a camera!” Anger? Regret? The camera has been a gift from the gods!



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How are you using B4 lenses on the regular Ursa Mini? Do you have an adapter or do the interchangeable mounts work?

Those SLR Magic APO lenses are really beautiful. If I wasn't just a hobbyist I would buy the whole set with no issues.

Maybe this is just me, but the curved front of the Ursa Mini is beautiful and looks better than flat front of other shorter-mount ENG cameras. I think it may have made it harder to design the ND filter wheel, but for the most part, it's a great design, and would look odd maybe as a shallow mount.

Rick’s Camera is an Ursa Mini 4.6 PL mount camera, which has an interchangeable mount to a B4 mount.
The UM 4.6 EF Mount is fixed. The UM Pro also has a B4 Mount available, as well as a PL mount.
Cheers

Those SLR Magic APO lenses are really beautiful. If I wasn't just a hobbyist I would buy the whole set with no issues...

Nice comment about the APO primes. I appreciate all your measured comments here.

I’m so close to adding the 32mm APO, I doubt I’ll sleep when that one ships! Hopefully I’ll do it justice. It’s going to be my main squeeze. Waiting about two years for that lens, but it’s sure to be worth it. Let’s not talk about the 18mm APO!

Good observation about the built-in ND filters. I bought the SLR Magic Vari-ND mark II before the arrival of the URSA Mini Pro w/built-in ND. And I added a complete set of the excellent budget 4x5.6” ND filters from NiSi for my matte box. But for greater flexibility, I added the complete set of ten very good budget SLR Magic screw-in ND filters (ND 0.3-3.0). So I’m not regretting not having the Pro’s three built-in filters.


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The built in filters are nice, but they only give you three ND settings. Having the option of other NDs is nice, as well as other filter choices.
Cheers

The building in filters are nice, but they only give you three ND settings. Having the option of other NDs is nice, as well as other filter choices.
Cheers

Yeah being able to double up or go without is the ultimate flexibility