Blackmagic RAW

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 4:43 pm

Christopher Dobey wrote:So the ProRes RAW deal fell through?

Just messing around! Thank you so much Blackmagic for catering to us who enjoy shooting in RAW and give a hoot about extracting every drop of quality from our files.


Probably. Some small Apple "impact" left as BM RAW uses MOV container :)
Performance is good, just watch this look file. If it's there Resolve gets confused and assigns color space to BMD Film (even if project is set to Bypass), which causes double conversion. You need Bypass setting in order to get look from sidecar file. If you want pure LOG look you have to delete sidecar file.

So many people were seeing no problems with DNG RAW- now they seems to be so excited :D
It decodes way easier and makes editing much easier. DNG RAW is now where it should be years ago- in the bin.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 4:58 pm

I was just on a job with my UM46k in a huge borrow pit when I looked at my phone and saw I got an email from Grant titled "Blackmagic RAW" - that got me so excited I had to break shooting and read all about it :D

This will be a game changer for my work flow.
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ThomMills

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:13 pm

Just watched Grant's video on the new BRAW. Looks very promising. Like many others here, I hope to see this available for the 4.6 URSA Mini soon.
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Ric Murray

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:15 pm

I have downloaded and installed the camera update and R 15.1. At 800 ISO 12:1 compression, shadow areas are creamy and clean, much improved to my eye. 256G Cfast Card holds 114 minutes of 12:1 footage!
Creativity is the ability to accept ambiguity.
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Willem Timmersma

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:19 pm

Awesome update! It really feels like a new camera. Definitely a great improvement! Camera and workflow wise!

However, I noticed some hot pixels after I installed the beta (green/white pixels popping up and disappearing). Rolled back to 5 and all seems fine.

When I installed the beta for a second time the hot pixels came back again unfortunately. Rolled back again and all seems fine.

It could be my camera? I sure hope not. Reported it with some frames.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:22 pm

singinkang wrote:So far it looks great. Shot a clip at 1600 ISO to see if there's a difference in the FPN on the UMP, and it's definitely improved. Only minor downside I've seen thus far is that when shooting .BRAW, any resolution aside from 4.6K is automatically windowed, with no option disable sensor windowing.


it's a raw, every time you work with raw the resolution different from native sensor is windowed, like in arri, red.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:23 pm

Dan Keeble wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:What, Raw released at IBC. I was hoping to see the pocket there?


They have a lot of Pocket 4K cameras here, if that helps.


They actually released to public. I was wondering why everybody went so quiet. It's funny they came to IBC and hadn't put out a camera shipping article.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:28 pm

John Richard wrote:Thank you, thank you, thank you BM!
Another side benefit is now we won't need a beast of a computer to efficiently edit and grade with.
And BRAW breathes longer life into our existing workstations/laptops.
Wonderful!


The new NVIDIA Turing GPU cards would probably also go with that (but I notice that BM has used a Radeon in its Macpro looking external GPU, which is a lot cheaper than buying a Macpro).
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singinkang

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:42 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:it's a raw, every time you work with raw the resolution different from native sensor is windowed, like in arri, red.

Ah, that makes sense. Until now, I haven't used raw because of the data consumption and the workflow with compressed raw. Thanks!
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Philip Lipetz

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 5:56 pm

Alex Garland wrote:This is huge, but if they make this available on the Pro, I don't see why not to the 4.6K at the same time. Is the hardware that different?


The demo video shows 4.6K working
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Philip Lipetz

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:01 pm

John Richard wrote:Thank you, thank you, thank you BM!
Another side benefit is now we won't need a beast of a computer to efficiently edit and grade with.
And BRAW breathes longer life into our existing workstations/laptops.
Wonderful!


Yes, I work for a nonprofit. Now we can put our budget into cameras and lights, not replacing our old cheesegrater Mac Pros. BMD just sold at least three cameras, and probably much more
Last edited by Philip Lipetz on Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pprokhor

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:09 pm

This looks amazing! 4.6k DNG was never smooth to edit with. Hoping for a URSA Mini 4.6k support, like everyone else ;)
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Albert Du Plessis

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:26 pm

Just did a quick test with one of the new braw files. Amazing. What has me excited is the file sizes, braw 246MB, ProRess 422- 424MB, 422HQ- 760MB, 4444- 826MB. That means one should be able to record longer in RAW on existing media than in ProRess. Why oh why would you not shoot in RAW all the time in future. This is HUGE, the quality improvements in my footage are going to be staggering.
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Stewart Fairweather

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:26 pm

Just from the limited information so far, this does seem to be a much more useable format then ProResRaw - it's more like BMD kept all the desirable elements of CineDNG, but got rid of the awkward file handling issues.

What I'd love to know, is whether this can be applied within an external recorder, to record the Raw outputs from other manufacturers cameras?

I know I represent a very small buying group, as one of the few Aja Cion owners,... When it comes to Raw Recording, we got shafted by both Atomos and Convergent Design, with Cion User Group members buying hardware those two companies claimed would get Raw support, that was never delivered.

This leaves us looking for other solutions. A Raw Recorder that could take the inputs from Aja, Arri, Canon, Sony, Panasonic and other brands cameras, and record to this new format that's not tied to one NLE and one brand of recorders,.. I'd think that would be a very popular piece of kit.

Having the information on colourspace and sensor setting in the sidecar files has got to make things easier when moving projects between post-production applications.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:31 pm

singinkang wrote:Only minor downside I've seen thus far is that when shooting .BRAW, any resolution aside from 4.6K is automatically windowed, with no option disable sensor windowing.


That's because it's RAW. There's no such thing as a super-sampled RAW.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:38 pm

robert Hart wrote:What's the chances of this becoming available on the original BM4K cinema camera, the "big" URSA 4K and the URSA Mini 4K?


Not likely, but who knows down the road, will depend on the processor in the camera if it can even be done. BM Raw is being rolled out for the Ursa Mini Pro first, then later for the new Pocket 4K, according to BM. Adding it to the older cameras is uncertain, and is just speculation right now. ;)

We will have to wait until the current roll out is completed, which is just in Beta right now on the UM Pro.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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michaeldhead

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Stewart Fairweather wrote:What I'd love to know, is whether this can be applied within an external recorder, to record the Raw outputs from other manufacturers cameras?


I kind of doubt it in the current crop of BMD recorders based on how Grant Petty described the processing in his official announcement. A large part of the computing power for Braw is done in the camera - if a recorder can get a raw signal, it can be recorded into any format: see Atomos.

But I highly doubt the existing BMD Video Assist recorders have the processing power to encode BMDraw (yeah..I like that name better). If they ever update the Video Assists, then I'm sure BMDraw will be included, but I highly doubt it would be added to the current units (but I could be wrong).
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Ottogarza

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Philip Lipetz wrote:
Alex Garland wrote:This is huge, but if they make this available on the Pro, I don't see why not to the 4.6K at the same time. Is the hardware that different?


The demo video shows 4.6K working


which demo video? I understand is not for the not PRO version!
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 7:20 pm

Yes, the bottom line is the Raw codec (which is camera specific) has to be enabled on the recorder, as well as in the camera (only BM camera that currently has a Raw output is the unsupported Micro Studio Camera). Since BM cameras record Raw internally, I do not see BM adding this to a VA for other cameras, at least not until the exclusive deal Atomos has with Sony and Panasonic has expired.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 7:33 pm

Stewart Fairweather wrote:Just from the limited information so far, this does seem to be a much more useable format then ProResRaw - it's more like BMD kept all the desirable elements of CineDNG, but got rid of the awkward file handling issues.

What I'd love to know, is whether this can be applied within an external recorder, to record the Raw outputs from other manufacturers cameras?


It has not much to do with DNG RAW, which is very outdated and crap.
Nothing stops implementation in recorders (well BM could if they wanted to).
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SkierEvans

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 7:36 pm

Is the data rate low enough to record to SD cards?
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DorisLondon

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 7:44 pm

Oh yes!! Smaller file sizes. Great BRAW images, Less processing power requirements from my already over burdened PC. Basically a much more economical, higher quality and faster workflow. This is why I bought a BM product for my film making. I'll say it again. Thank you BM techs. You inspire creativity!

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Philip Lipetz

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 7:59 pm

SkierEvans wrote:Is the data rate low enough to record to SD cards?


Several reports, include Kolhi I think, of recording to old 95Mbs UHS-I San Disk cards at lower bit rates.
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Chris Gosling

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 8:05 pm

What I posted in the other thread about SD cards....

Chris Gosling wrote:Tested using older SanDisk Extreme Pro SD cards. 95MB/s. Same as I used in BMPCC.

Recorded 4.6K at 8:1, 12:1, Q0 & Q5 no problem what so ever.


Now I will say that I didn't test Q0 on any taxing subjects - so it might break down on these cards if the compression requirements change.
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Li Chenghan

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 8:20 pm

Can Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K use Blackmagic RAW?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 8:26 pm

Yes, at some point as BM Raw is being rolled out for the Ursa Mini Pro first, then later for the new Pocket 4K, according to BM. Adding it to the older cameras is uncertain and is just speculation right now. ;)

We will have to wait until the current roll out is completed, which is just in Beta right now on the UM Pro.
We need to be careful and not put the cart in front of the horse.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 8:36 pm

It has metadata for camera and lens. Would be really good to have it also for external information like camera position.

Will this work also over SDI for broadcasting?
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Hundo Hill

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 9:09 pm

BM RAW... BRAW... They should call it "BLACK CODE" why not?! :D
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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 9:15 pm

I have to say the test clips are looking phenomenal and their performance on a laptop is simply unreal.

I was on the fence between getting an EOS R or BMPCC4K as a B-cam/more portable option to my C200. (BMPCC4K + Speedbooster is about the same cost as the EOS R body.)

After trying out the Blackmagic Raw demo clips, my decision was made. As much I love Canon's DualPixel Autofocus for run-and-gun, the amazing (and now lightweight) codecs of Blackmagic won me over and I placed my preorder for the BMPCC4K.

To the Blackmagic team: thank you for your aggressive openness and for relentlessly pushing the industry on both the hardware + software fronts and making your innovations widely accessible. You are a force for good in your industry.
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Hundo Hill

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 9:18 pm

Also, will this increase the possibility of higher frame rates?
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 9:22 pm

Grant says BMD is working with other camera manufacturers... I don't expect this to affect the high end like Red and Venice, but it seems like a much better choice than the closed ProResRaw... plus BMD also got the workflow part right; the SDK approach is the way to go.

Being able to RENDER to BRaw is also a big deal, IMO. That is cool. :)

I guess that does imply the end of Cineform as a mezzanine codec. Oh well, now we have something better :)
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Kel Philm

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 9:49 pm

Woke up this morning to find my Cfast cards had more than doubled in size, my PC had increased its thread count and my UMPro has had a sensor upgrade.

Seriously though, nice work BMD.
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Alex Garland

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 9:54 pm

I'm not getting the BRAW files to display/load on the new version of Resolve. I wonder if it's because it's an integrated Intel HD graphics card.

The previous version displays CinemaDNG files normally, though.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 10:29 pm

Alex Garland wrote:I'm not getting the BRAW files to display/load on the new version of Resolve. I wonder if it's because it's an integrated Intel HD graphics card.

The previous version displays CinemaDNG files normally, though.


It's probably due to limitations in the Intel GPU's OpenCL implementation. There's a reason that Intel launched an entire new division dedicated entirely to GPUs... and hired the former Radeon Technologies Group's chief GPU architect. It's due to its current GPUs' mediocrity. :)
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 10:32 pm

May I add my expression of gratitude to BMD for bringing us BRAW? It solves so many issues as have been well documented here by previous individuals. BMD is making it ridiculously easy to produce great work without limitations caused by the technology and the budget. Yes, budgets have also been given a new life. So looking forward to using this upgrade on the BMPCC4K and the URSA Mini 4.6K this fall.

There are many good companies with good leaders in this industry. No doubt many who have a dream and are pursuing it as best they can. But few of them would claim to be driven by a high concept that resonates in us. It goes without saying, I admire Grant Petty and his dream more than any other CEO of a manufacturer. There’s an Oscar for Innovation and Grant has my vote. If there was an Oscar for High Concept, he’d win that too.




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Christopher Dobey

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 10:35 pm

Blackmagic RAW Player (macOS) appears to be displaying in the sRGB color space and gamma, as I've found that's the only way to match a file rendered in Resolve to it.
Exporting in default Rec. 709 Gamma 2.4 produces a gamma shift as you can see in the photo.

Rendering in sRGB/sRGB Gamma now looks the same as the original RAW file opened in RAW Player but the transfer characteristics are switched to sRGB/sYCC instead BT.709 which could cause issues down the line.

Trying to find a workflow where the unmodified BM RAW file looks the same out of the camera as it does out of Resolve 15 in macOS.
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Demetrius Spencer

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 11:04 pm

singinkang wrote:So far it looks great. Shot a clip at 1600 ISO to see if there's a difference in the FPN on the UMP, and it's definitely improved. Only minor downside I've seen thus far is that when shooting .BRAW, any resolution aside from 4.6K is automatically windowed, with no option disable sensor windowing.


Ok I was wondering if my camera was malfunctioning. There's no way to get it out of windowed mode for any other resolutions other than 4.6k?
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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 11:53 pm

Demetrius Spencer wrote:Ok I was wondering if my camera was malfunctioning. There's no way to get it out of windowed mode for any other resolutions other than 4.6k?

No. You are recording the raw sensor data. If you are supersampling from more pixels, it can't be raw data.
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rick.lang

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Blackmagic RAW

PostFri Sep 14, 2018 11:55 pm

The ProRes in camera downscaling will move from the camera to a be part of the BRAW post workflow if a smaller resolution with the wider angle of view is desired.


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Demetrius Spencer

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 12:35 am

rick.lang wrote:The ProRes in camera downscaling will move from the camera to a be part of the BRAW post workflow if a smaller resolution with the wider angle of view is desired.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the clarity!
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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 12:58 am

singinkang wrote:So far it looks great. Shot a clip at 1600 ISO to see if there's a difference in the FPN on the UMP, and it's definitely improved. Only minor downside I've seen thus far is that when shooting .BRAW, any resolution aside from 4.6K is automatically windowed, with no option disable sensor windowing.


Yeah because it's raw, it won't down sample from 4.6k but instead give you an exact 4k or uhd sensor cut otherwise it wouldn't be able to be a raw image.

But I don't see a reason not to shoot 4.6k as the 12:1 ratio will give you file sizes akin to prores HQ but in 1080p!!!! The savings are massive.
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Alastair Leith

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 1:16 am

Is BMD RAW an open standard that, say, other camera manufactures can deploy for their own cameras?

I can't see BMD giving away so much research away for nothing to it's competitors, but hopefully will prompt them to consider the advantages.
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Stephen Fitzgerald

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 1:34 am

This NEEDS to be rolled out to the 4.6k not just the UMP Pro!!!! :mrgreen:
It's only fair really, same processor, same sensor. Why would they purposely hold it back?

They wouldn't :) :) :) :)

Hope to see it very soon, your loyal user.
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Jonesy Jones

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 2:30 am

Just wondering if any of the BM reps can verify if there's a flavor of braw that supports an alpha channel. I've always rendered out drag and drop graphics like logo reveals as Prores 444 since it supports alpha. I've been hoping to ditch prores altogether and this could be my solution. My instinct would be that braw has no alpha yet, but would be great if it eventually did.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 2:52 am

singinkang wrote:So far it looks great. Shot a clip at 1600 ISO to see if there's a difference in the FPN on the UMP, and it's definitely improved. Only minor downside I've seen thus far is that when shooting .BRAW, any resolution aside from 4.6K is automatically windowed, with no option disable sensor windowing.



So are the regular Cinema DNG files that The UMP normally shoots technically better quality then let's say QO, or is their something in the new Blackmagic Raw that increases the quality and lowers Fixed Pattern Noise?
Last edited by Matt Thela on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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michaeldhead

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 3:16 am

Alastair Leith wrote:Is BMD RAW an open standard that, say, other camera manufactures can deploy for their own cameras?

I can't see BMD giving away so much research away for nothing to it's competitors, but hopefully will prompt them to consider the advantages.


I doubt it, but I could be wrong. I imagine that giving out the SDK on the editing side is a way to make all the consumers/software developers happy while hoping to draw people into the BMD camera family.

I know I'm saving pennys for a UMP, and that's after I preordered the P4k (which will become the b-cam after I get the UMP).
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 3:17 am

If boost extreme shadows from BRAW files FPN is still visible, but seems no more Cross Hatching grid pattern problem there. Need more samples to confirm this.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 3:20 am

Is there any downside to installing the BRAW update? is it safe for comercial use?
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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 7:22 am

Christopher Dobey wrote:Blackmagic RAW Player (macOS) appears to be displaying in the sRGB color space and gamma, as I've found that's the only way to match a file rendered in Resolve to it.
Exporting in default Rec. 709 Gamma 2.4 produces a gamma shift as you can see in the photo.

While that interesting to know, it's not an issue. Any computer desktop video player, including the new one for Blackmagic RAW, is simply a quick way to preview the files on computer screen and not a color managed reference. If you seek a reference image to match against exports, you should be viewing the image out through BMD i/o (Decklink, Ultrastudio, etc.) to a calibrated reference monitor.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Blackmagic RAW

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 7:57 am

As I understood it, you can't encode into BRAW, only trim files that are already BRAW.
Can anybody try? I'm in the middle of a project and don't like to touch a running system.
Resolve Studio and Fusion Studio
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
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