BMPCC4k - Audio recording questions

Hello

I'm waiting for my pre-ordered BMPCC4K, which I will use for narrative short filmmaking.

Info 1: It has XLR audio input, which is nice, but what do you think, can it replace a separate audio recorder? Can I just attach a Rode NTG2 or lavaliers to it and thats it?

Info 2: Currently I have the BMCC 2.5K. For an upcoming (silent) short I will use it if I don't get the BMPCC4K until then..... I have only a Zoom H1, nothing else audio-wise.... So I want to buy something thats good to record audio now, but later I can use with BMPCC4K also...

Is it a good idea to buy a Rode Videomic Pro+ now and use it with the Zoom H1 for this project (silent project, 1 man in a room, later will be added his voice over narration), and then I could use the Videomic Pro+ on the BMPCC4K as a default on-board mic. Plus, I would add to this setup a separate recorder (like Tascam DE-60D/DR-44WL or Zoom H4N, H5, or H6) and an NTG2 shotgun mic. So this is the final plan for smal narrative films.

Now I have to find a "bridge" solution for BMCC 2.5K, which can be used for BMPCC4K when it arrives.. So this is why I thought of buying the Videmic Pro+, I could record it to H1, use it on a boompole for example.... Then this Videomic could be default on-board mic for BMPCC4K...

What do you think?

(I'm not an audio guy, but I need to come up with a decent solution)

I just this weekend did a quick test to compare the P4K preamps to a Sound Devices Mixpre (the original Mixpre, that is). It was a quiet room, but I didn't need much gain, so not really a stress test. I thought the P4K preamps sounded just as good as the Sound Devices preamps. I think the SD has more gain, and of course it also has analog limiters, so of course it is better overall; but I think you could just plug a microphone straight into the camera and get great results in many situations.

I'm a little confused about your second question. Do you mean that you have no microphones now? I'm not an audio expert, but all of them say that the worst place to put a microphone is on the camera. That means that a Videomic may not be a wise investment. You may want to start out with just an NTG2 (or something better, perhaps?) straight into the camera, and only add a recorder if you really need it.

Better yet would be to work with a sound person, of course.

I'm a little confused about your second question. Do you mean that you have no microphones now? I'm not an audio expert, but all of them say that the worst place to put a microphone is on the camera. That means that a Videomic may not be a wise investment. You may want to start out with just an NTG2 (or something better, perhaps?) straight into the camera, and only add a recorder if you really need it.
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For your first ("silent") project, I would think you could just use the Pocket 4K's built-in mics for scratch audio since you're going to re-record the voice later. In general I agree that on-camera mics are not a great solution, but they work for a few things: 1) ambient recording (which runs the risk of picking up sounds of you operating the camera), 2) close interviews where you're about a meter or so from the subject, and 3) true run-and-gun documentary shooting where you have to be very mobile. This was the technique used in the documentary Cartel Land (for everything but the indoor interviews) and the sound is actually not bad. Otherwise hiring a boom operator and/or using lavs is going to give you better sound than you can get from a camera-mounted mic.

In terms of technical quality recording on camera with a Pocket 4K will probably be fine, but for narrative filmmaking on-camera recording isn't really a good idea to attempt. You could get the mic in the right spot with a long XLR cable, but then you're running the (high) risk of having someone trip over it and knock the camera over, etc. That's a big reason that hardly anyone uses on-camera audio for narrative film work, no matter the camera.

I was not clear enough I think

I don't want on-board recording only... Right now I have only the Zoom H1, and the BMCC 2.5K. If the BMPCC4K does not arrive until the project start than I have to use my existing camera. The film is silent because the actor does not speak on-screen, but there are noises, amience etc... It is played in a small room. So I need to record it. So I have to think of Plan A and Plan B.

For Plan A, its a necessity, a bridging solution until the BMPCC4K arrives, I thought of buying a VideoMic Pro+, plug it into H1 and using it on a boom or mic-stand. When the BMPCC4K arrives (PLan B) I would use this Videomic on-board, and would add an another mic, like NTG2 or lavalier for recording close to talent/action.

So basically I want to know
1, how to record audio for this short, with the BMCC 2.5K, Zoom H1... and what to buy now? That I can use later in the final setup with BMPCC4K...
2, With BMPCC4K, do I need an external audio recorder? Or what is the quality of the on-board recorder? I did not found info at Blackmagic website.
3, what basic setup could I use for BMPCC4K for small narrative work? I thought of on-board mic (like Videomic Pro+, plugged into BMPCC4K for lead and for ambience), and some other mic like NTG2 on a boom. This second mic would be recorded into the BMPCC4K or into an external recorder.
4, If I go the external recorder route, which one you recommend? The price range I look includes from Tascam the DR-60D, DR-70D, DR-44WL, DR100mk3, from Zoom H4N Pro,H5 or H6 maybe. XLR and phantom power is a must, but its hard to decide which one. I tried to find articles about recommended setups for narrative filmmaking, but beside a few article, I did not found anything specific. The articles are based for videographers, vloggers mainly

I like the deck-style of the 60D/70D, but maybe a hand recorder is more practical for small shoots.

I don't want on-board recording only... Right now I have only the Zoom H1, and the BMCC 2.5K. If the BMPCC4K does not arrive until the project start than I have to use my existing camera. The film is silent because the actor does not speak on-screen, but there are noises, amience etc... It is played in a small room. So I need to record it. So I have to think of Plan A and Plan B.

That does make your situation much clearer.

So basically I want to know
1, how to record audio for this short, with the BMCC 2.5K, Zoom H1... and what to buy now? That I can use later in the final setup with BMPCC4K...

I'd recommend a Rode shotgun (NTG3/4) or one of the updated Deity mics, unless you want to stretch for a Sennheiser or higher end, even though you wouldn't get much of an improvement in sound quality, if any, compared to an NTG3 or a Deity 2, most likely.

2, With BMPCC4K, do I need an external audio recorder? Or what is the quality of the on-board recorder? I did not found info at Blackmagic website.

Yes and no. For narratives, no because of the tethering part. For interviews and such where you don't have a full production crew and cast for whom the tripping hazard would be a problem, you'll need an external audio recorder.

3, what basic setup could I use for BMPCC4K for small narrative work? I thought of on-board mic (like Videomic Pro+, plugged into BMPCC4K for lead and for ambience), and some other mic like NTG2 on a boom. This second mic would be recorded into the BMPCC4K or into an external recorder.

You probably won't need an extra mic for ambiance attached to the BMPCC4K because of its internal mics.

4, If I go the external recorder route, which one you recommend? The price range I look includes from Tascam the DR-60D, DR-70D, DR-44WL, DR100mk3, from Zoom H4N Pro,H5 or H6 maybe.

Tascams are solid, but the Zoom F4 is very good. Don't bother with the likes of the H4n (it's bad), the H6 is just passable. It sounds pretty anemic and lifeless. I use a Sound Devices recorder, and find that as far as sound quality goes, the Zoom F4 is too close to differentiate, though operationally I prefer the Sound Devices and the limiters are definitely cleaner.

The F4 is a good recorder regardless of its very low price though. I generally dislike Zoom's products because of the H4n and H6, but I actually like the F4.

Yes and no. For narratives, no because of the tethering part. For interviews and such where you don't have a full production crew and cast for whom the tripping hazard would be a problem, you'll need an external audio recorder.

That's a strange opinion. Did you mean the reverse? I'm much more likely to go straight into the camera for interviews than narrative work. (I'm also much more likely to have a sound person for narrative work.)

I've never found microphone cables to be more of tripping problem than power cables or any other kind of cable in a locked-down interview scenario. More of an issue in narrative work in which actors and camera are more likely to be moving.

That's a strange opinion. Did you mean the reverse? I'm much more likely to go straight into the camera for interviews than narrative work. (I'm also much more likely to have a sound person for narrative work.)

Yes, I did... the down side to posting at work where I get distracted half way through a sentence.

I've never found microphone cables to be more of tripping problem than power cables or any other kind of cable in a locked-down interview scenario. More of an issue in narrative work in which actors and camera are more likely to be moving.

That's exactly what I meant. I use on-camera recording for interviews, but it's a nightmare in narrative work. I've done it... when I was new to film and didn't have access to a good recorder yet.

It has XLR audio input, which is nice, but what do you think, can it replace a separate audio recorder? Can I just attach a Rode NTG2 or lavaliers to it and thats it?

I just happened to receive my XLR adapter this afternoon and own the NTG2.

1. This is not a very sensitive microphone. As a reference point, I had to increase amplification to 83% to equal the sensitivity of the built-in mic.

2. The response was exactly the same whether I used mic level powered by a battery in the mic or phantom power supplied by the camera.

3. Noise levels seemed similar to what I get from a Juicedlink Riggy Micro pre-amp. (I didn't do any definitive tests because my office is pretty noisy today.)

My initial impression is that the built-in amps are likely powerful and clean enough for all but the most demanding/discerning.

Joe, were you running the NTG2 with phantom power from the camera?


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Joe, were you running the NTG2 with phantom power from the camera?

I tested both phantom and mic level. Got the exact same levels and noise floor also looked the same.

Rakesh

Thanks for the answer!
In budget Zoom F4 is too much, I have to find a basic gear for shooting small projects.

-I see that some recorders offer physical knobs to adjust gain, others not. How can I adjust gain on Tascam DR100 or DR44WL for example? On the Zoom H5/H6 or Tascam DR60/DR70 I just turn the knobs, right?
-in narrative filmmaking, how important is to continuously adjust the gain during recording?
-you write that for BMPCC4K, to record ambience I probably don't need additional mic. Maybe I misunderstand, but ambience is = atmosphere? Or is it only a lead recording, for which I can sync the better quality audio later in post?
- for this current "silent" project, where we hear noises,ambience, and later I add music and voice over to it, what would you recommend for recording during the film shoot with the BMCC 2.5K? Would a recorder with on-board mic, like Tascam DR44,DR100 or Zoom H5/H6 would be good? (So later when I have the BMPCC4K I could use them as external recorders and attach an XLR mic like Rode NTG on a boom.
-I like the build style of Tascam DR-60 and DR-70, but I feel that a handy recorder could be used better in my projects and in my rig.
- If I use external audio recorder with BMPCC4K, then what is the use of its XLR capability? Among the many reasons, this is one reason I change my BMCC for this... So is it completely useless?
- you write that for narrative its better to record audio off the camera, separetely, so if someone walks and falls in the cables... But I see rig pictures and almost always the audio recorder is fixed on the camera rig... So its not good idea?

-I do not really like the Zoom solution of H5/H6 where you can interschange the top mic. It seems fragile... When its built together like with Tascams or Zoom H4n Pro, its seems more sturdy.
-Tascam DR100mkiii seems nice to me, its classic and simple. I read that in spite of its only 2 channels, but very good audio quality... Zoom H5/H6 offers more channels, but do I need them?
-How would the Tascam DR44WL compare to DR100mkiii?

Rakesh
- you write that for narrative its better to record audio off the camera, separetely, so if someone walks and falls in the cables... But I see rig pictures and almost always the audio recorder is fixed on the camera rig... So its not good idea?

When you're a one-person operation (shooting video and recording sound), fixing the audio recorder on the camera rig (or mounting it on a tripod and mounting the camera rig on top of it) is convenient. I suspect in most of those cases the sound is being recorded by a microphone mounted on the camera as well, so tripping over wires isn't an issue. It only becomes an issue when you mount your microphone on a stand or use a boom operator with the XLR going directly into the camera.

Given the reviews of the quality of the BMPCC 4K's built-in mics, you could probably use them to capture ambient sound (i.e. "atmosphere," room sound, background sound), but just beware that any noises you make as the camera operator (such as pressing buttons, or the sound of your footsteps if you're walking) may also be picked up. You'll have to be careful to minimize sound.

The main issues with camera-mounted mics are distance and directionality. The farther away you are from the sound source, the lower the signal-to-noise ratio. If you are shooting 1-2 meters from your sound source, an on-camera mic will be fine, and for some situations it'll be fine even farther away. But for optimal sound you want your mics close to the sound sources. As for directionality, if you have a shotgun or other highly directional mic mounted on the camera it's only going to pick up sound from whatever the camera is pointed to. In some situations that's fine, but in others you'd want more flexibility.

I haven't been watching the BMPCC 4K reviews too closely as I'm not planning to buy one, but see if you can find one that reviews its performance as a standalone audio recorder via the XLR input, including any evaluation of latency (some cameras' audio recorders can be slightly out of sync with video due to latency).

As for the recorder, if you're going to be doing video and audio yourself and you sometimes need more than one channel, I think getting a recorder that can be mounted on your camera makes sense so all your controls are at your fingertips.
You shouldn't have to adjust levels too much during recording: as long as you have low-noise preamps you can set the levels quite low (-18 dbfs is common) and raise them in post without introducing noise. That way you can capture a wide dynamic range without worrying about clipping when noises suddenly become louder. The Sound Devices MixPre-3 is probably out of your price range, but a very good choice because it has analog limiters to protect from clipping unexpectedly loud sounds, plus it has very quiet, high-quality preamps.

Hey Brad

I could not find any review about a detailed view of the audio capabilities of BMPCC4K....
I think that it may be easier to plug in the xlr mic to the BMPCC4K, but then every audio adjustment you have to make in the menu.... While with a seperate recorder you have the controls at your fingertips...

I'm about 80% decided to buy a Tascam DR-100mkiii. Its interesting because I hardly find decent reviews on it, Zoom products are more widely reviewed...

What do you think of it?

Now I would use it with its internal mics for my short film (silent, no talking, just noises and ambience during filming, later I would add a voice over and music). Later when BMPCC4K arrives, then I could use it as an external recorder and would add a shotgun mic on a boompole (like Rode NTG2 or NTG4). Its only 2 xlr inputs, 2 channels, but if I need more I could plug the additinal mic to BMPCC4K, right?

Among the few reviews I found, they say that sound quality with this mkiii version is pretty amazing, better than Zoom counterparts. What makes me a little nervous is that it seems that it can't record at the same time through internal + external mics.... Is it true? Its odd...

Zoom H5 and Zoom H6 seems too complicated for my needs, this DR100mk3 seems well thought of, well built, good size for handheld or rig use, it has xlr, phantom power, and good audio specs also.

Any thoughts on this?

I'm 90% commited on the Tascam DR-100mk3. Only thing that annoys me a little, that they write that it can't record the internal mics and external mics at the same time, either this or that....

This Tascam gets way fewer reviews or online apperance than Zoom H5, but in those reviews they praise its quality...

(Other option would be the Tascam DR-44WL, which can record on the internal and external at the same time. But I did not really found any comparison between the 44WL and 100mk3....)

My advice would be: use the H1 for your current project, wait for the the BMPCC4k to arrive, buy a decent Mic and test it with the BMPCC4k. Maybe that's all you need for your type of work.

If you need more inputs, better control, limiter, better sound quality: save until you can afford a Mixpre3. Forget all the entry level Zooms, Tascams etc. You already have one of those. Replacing you H1 with a 100mk3 will gain only little for the money you spent. Save the money to buy something decent later.

And finally: if audio is bad, the weak point is rarely the recorder. It's almost always bad microphone placement, lack of planing, no soundcheck, noisy locations, user errors, lack of experience, a forgotten wind shield etc.

Johannes

Thanks for the answer!
In budget Zoom F4 is too much, I have to find a basic gear for shooting small projects.

It's worth saving for, since you can use the on-camera inputs for basic stuff where you're only on sticks.

-I see that some recorders offer physical knobs to adjust gain, others not. How can I adjust gain on Tascam DR100 or DR44WL for example? On the Zoom H5/H6 or Tascam DR60/DR70 I just turn the knobs, right?

Most have physical knobs, though I don't know the Tascam's by model name. I like Tascam gear, but not their nonsensical names.

-in narrative filmmaking, how important is to continuously adjust the gain during recording?

It's a bad idea. It's like riding the iris; it just creates extra work in post. A backup or ISO track is a much better way to go.

-you write that for BMPCC4K, to record ambience I probably don't need additional mic. Maybe I misunderstand, but ambience is = atmosphere? Or is it only a lead recording, for which I can sync the better quality audio later in post?

It can serve for both of those. The one thing that the on-camera mics won't do well is record your dialog, because you'll usually find that the camera position isn't also a good position for the mic. There's really not anything technology can to do alleviate that, because it's a result of physics.

- for this current "silent" project, where we hear noises,ambience, and later I add music and voice over to it, what would you recommend for recording during the film shoot with the BMCC 2.5K? Would a recorder with on-board mic, like Tascam DR44,DR100 or Zoom H5/H6 would be good? (So later when I have the BMPCC4K I could use them as external recorders and attach an XLR mic like Rode NTG on a boom.

The on board mics on the 2.5K are usually good enough for syncing, though the results recording on-camera with a good preamp actually are reasonably good. An external recorder will be better, and I'd definitely recommend a Tascam over an H5/H6; Zooms are notorious for having terrible preamps. (The F4 and F8 were surprises because of that.)

I think Zoom released a v2 of the F4 and F8 recently, so you might be able to find some good deals on used ones from people who are upgrading due to their obsession with the latest and greatest toys.

- If I use external audio recorder with BMPCC4K, then what is the use of its XLR capability? Among the many reasons, this is one reason I change my BMCC for this... So is it completely useless?

It depends on your use. For interviews, it will do nicely; if that's your main goal, I'd hold off on an external recorder and save up for an F4. You can also just put up with the inconvenience of having your audio tethered to the camera while saving for an F4, and use the on-board XLR input until you can afford one.

- you write that for narrative its better to record audio off the camera, separetely, so if someone walks and falls in the cables... But I see rig pictures and almost always the audio recorder is fixed on the camera rig... So its not good idea?

I *never* tether the audio to the camera when shooting narratives. Since I do that more than interviews and such, I don't even have a good rig for attaching my (tiny) recorder to my camera.

-I do not really like the Zoom solution of H5/H6 where you can interschange the top mic. It seems fragile... When its built together like with Tascams or Zoom H4n Pro, its seems more sturdy.

Don't bother with the H4n, it's just bad. Your impression is generally justified.

-Tascam DR100mkiii seems nice to me, its classic and simple. I read that in spite of its only 2 channels, but very good audio quality... Zoom H5/H6 offers more channels, but do I need them?
-How would the Tascam DR44WL compare to DR100mkiii?

Two channels is enough for most purposes. If you *need* more, get a dedicated audio person. By the time you get to that point, it won't be a problem.

I had a six channel recorder for around five years and found that I rarely needed even three, so I sold it and downsized to a tiny four channel recorder (that doesn't have any XLR outputs because I didn't need them).

I don't know the Tascam model numbers/names well at all, just that I have yet to meet a Tascam that didn't have good sound quality. It's no Sound Devices/Zaxcom, but definitely sufficient for entry level professional use.