BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

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Alex Schmied

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BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostSun Jun 09, 2019 6:03 pm

Hello,

i start to have a BIG problem with the philosophy of blackmagicdesign!
They do NOT care about old products and the fact, that there is NO card on the market, that can be used with the BMPCC without any problems is reality!

I have tested some and the only one, that works "ok" (it had a problem, but after some formating it was ok again)... it is the Sony 64GB 95mb/s BUT (!!) you should not just buy any of these cards, because they don't work all well.

the card with TVHN003367943 and CG64G1839 is ok for ProRes HQ 30fps (i tested it for about 10 min)

2 cards with TR at the beginning was able to get just 5sek of ProRes HQ and about 42sek with RAW 30fps and 1,50min with 25fps on RAW.

So, it is again the same problem... the problem is not the card, but the chip inside of it. Some cards of the same kind (i suppose the newer ones) don't work and other (i suppose the older ones) work ok, but are not absolutly reliable.

After that, please DON'T suggest just the kind of a card, but the exact lable of it.

It would be a really great thing, if blackmagicdesign make an update for the new chips in the SD-cards. But i suppose they just want us to buy the new BMPCC 4k... very pity, if it is so.

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Alex
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lee4ever

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 12:32 am

You are absolutely right, it is not good that Blackmagic Design no longer cares about the older products. The older products are much more popular and are still being used productively. If it's like you say Blackmagic doesn't care because we have to buy the new products, then it's definitely not good trading and customers will know in the future why they don't want to buy BMD products.
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Jeff_kirkland

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 2:08 am

Every product from every company eventually reaches end of life. It's the nature of the fast pace the industry moves at these days. My Sony FS700 is still an amazing camera eight years on but I'm never going to see another update or support from Sony. And if I get to the point where it doesn't support modern media, there's not much I can do.

In my experience, companies like Atomos are far worse. You're lucky if one of their recorders gets updated or supported 12 months after it's released.


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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 2:32 am

You can't simply blame Blackmagic on these sorts of issues, as it's not always something they can address. It may well be an issue with the hardware that can't be upgraded with a firmware change due to the way memory cards are made to new standards.

This article dates back to 2015: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/new ... /index.htm, highlighting problems from over five years ago. The BMPCC is now getting very long in the tooth in electronic terms and when manufacturers stop making cards in the older formats, you're stuck.

I was about to buy a used BMPCC some weeks ago for a pretty good price, but stopped myself because of the issues that I'd likely face. And I'm pretty sure that if Blackmagic could have easily addressed this issue, they would have. Nothing that I've seen of their philosophy indicates otherwise.
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Alex Schmied

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 7:22 am

This is very simple thinking, just to argue with the "end of life". It is the thing about the philosophy of the company.

And the problem is NOT even the "end of life", but the answer of the blackmagicdesign Support.
They just talk about the mentioned card in their list and say, this card is supported by the BMPCC. But the card is no more on the market. So I don't see any clear answer about the "end of life" or just honest way of thinking, sorry.

I don't understand, were the problem is... they could just do an update of the firmware, for the newer chips in the SD-cards. THAN they could official make a statement on the homepage and here in the forum, that the BMPCC will no more longer updated and will have problems with SD-cards in future. This would be user friendly. But, yes... this will be also VERY "abnormal" behavior for the company, it would be too much social.
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Uli Plank

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 8:57 am

If you would run that business, would you really like to invest your resources into fixing something that others broke?
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Alex Schmied

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 9:12 am

Software engineering is not the thing of "me and others"... that is NOT the reality of software development.
You have ALWAYS a progress, that you manage together with others, if you want it or not.
So if somebody brings new chips on the market, you just update your software to that chips.
Nobody broke something.

If you don't want it, you just bring your own chip on the market (as for example MixPre company).

Blackmagicdesign just offers not correct list of "supported cards" and gives not correct information about it, because there NON of them on the market.

So, if i would think a little bit social, I would just notify the people on my homepage and in forum about the "end of life" of the BMPCC. Because it IS the end of life, if I give no more updates to newer chips in SD-cards. If I'm still saying that there are supported cards out there (without any problems) I'm just lying.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 10:09 am

How do you know that it's such an easy thing to fix with a firmware update?

And because the BMPCC has been superseded, there's no economic reason to conduct tests to see what new cards may or may not work with the camera. You are quite capable of doing that yourself.
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Alex Schmied

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 10:18 am

I don't talk about "easy things", I talk about the reality of software engineering in relation to "others and their progress".

Thats the problem, that we are living in disposable society. For you it's normal, that there is no reason for investing money in outdated products. For me it's the wrong way of thinking.
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Alex Schmied

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 10:22 am

and as i already mentioned, other companies just make own cards (for example MixPre), thats a really good idea, that give support for a long time.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 10:36 am

Alex Schmied wrote:I don't talk about "easy things", I talk about the reality of software engineering in relation to "others and their progress".

Thats the problem, that we are living in disposable society. For you it's normal, that there is no reason for investing money in outdated products. For me it's the wrong way of thinking.


This has nothing to do with things being disposable. It's about technology improvements and with that comes the reality that older technology falls by the wayside sooner or later.

It doesn't matter whether it's software or hardware. Do you use a modern computer? Do you watch TV on a HD screen? Do you use a modern mobile phone? If so, why?
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 11:42 am

As a matter of fact BM have no plans to support not only recently discontinued BMPCC but even camera and vidioassist monitor that are still sold as current products. I mean Micro... etc. That for me means very simple thing in future - the same situation will sooner or later may take place with any other camera and may concern any user. I do not understand people who support(understand) this policy of BM.

BM do not support products that are on sale. Why BM do not publish list of Current Available Supported SD Cards for Micro? That is the question.
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Alex Schmied

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 12:06 pm

@Australian image: sorry, but what you describe there IS disposable society. I DON'T buy just another phone, because it's new on the market, i DON'T buy what ever just because it's new. I use the things, till they are broken and THEN think about newer versions.

It's just the philosophy of the society and companies, that want to consume new things and make money on the other side. Nothing special about that, just a normal thing. I thought that blackmagicdesign has another philosophy, but it's not the case.

@Valery Axenov: that's the point, I also don't understand people, who constantly defend such strategy.
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Uli Plank

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 4:43 pm

Why do you expect a business to behave non-capitalist in a capitalist society? It would be gone soon.

I'm still using my iPhone SE after changing the battery. That took quite an effort, because it's stupidly glued in at full length. Does anybody believe that's decided by engineering department? No, it's by sales.

Or my Denon Blutooth speakers. Sounding well until just a few weeks (!) after the warranty period, then both of them (bought in different places) went dead. And I mean dead, not just loosing charge gradually (some internet research showed me that I'm not alone). And no chance for any simple replacement, even worse than the iPhone.

It seems that some companies put more engineering brain into developing reliable breakdown than into reliability. For me, BM is not among the worst. My BMPCC HD is still working fine with old SD cards.

Can humankind afford this? Not really.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 5:02 pm

Uli Plank wrote:I'm still using my iPhone SE after changing the battery. That took quite an effort, because it's stupidly glued in at full length. Does anybody believe that's decided by engineering department? No, it's by sales.

Or my Denon Blutooth speakers. Sounding well until just a few weeks (!) after the warranty period, then both of them (bought in different places) went dead. And I mean dead, not just loosing charge gradually (some internet research showed me that I'm not alone). And no chance for any simple replacement, even worse than the iPhone.


I have another example. Bought an expensive Krups bean to cup coffee maker. After 1 year it was dead but still under warranty. Got it repaired. Shortly after 2 years it refused to brew. It was a great coffee maker with an easy to use display. It also had a counter which tells you how many coffees you have made. Well it was above 6500 coffees. Found out online in the warranty small print that the warranty ends either after 2 years or after 6000 coffees. Ok, no repair.

Bought a cheap Krups bean to cup coffee maker (1/3 of the price of the first one). Inside, it has the same mill, the same brewing unit, but a simpler design and display outside and less intelligent features.
And it has no brewed coffees counter.
It has now made approximately more than 8000 coffees and is still going strong.

Back to BMD: I think they should at least take care of the Videoassist and SD card compatibility. And it would be a nice gesture to fix compatibility with the old Pocket.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 5:26 pm

And their are SD card compatibility lists for Micro Camera and the VA’s here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54330.

As for Sound Devices, they do not make their own recording media, but put their name on cards that meet their specifications made by a third party manufacturer. Doing this usually adds to the cost of said media, limits availability, but does insure consistent reliability. I have a Pix 220, and have the same issue getting CF cards to work in it. So this is not a unique issue with BMD.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 8:58 pm

Alex Schmied wrote:@Australian image: sorry, but what you describe there IS disposable society. I DON'T buy just another phone, because it's new on the market, i DON'T buy what ever just because it's new. I use the things, till they are broken and THEN think about newer versions.

It's just the philosophy of the society and companies, that want to consume new things and make money on the other side. Nothing special about that, just a normal thing. I thought that blackmagicdesign has another philosophy, but it's not the case.


Some products are made to have a limited life, others are not, that's the price we pay to have cheap goods. I use superseded mobile phone models because I don't believe in buying the latest and greatest. I really liked my Windows phone over Android, but had to give it up because app developers started removing essential apps. The same applied to my wife's Windows phone. Now there's a potential issue arising with our Huawei phones due to US bans. My 15+ years old Nokia etc phones still work, but why use them?

I have Olympus lenses that are around 15 years old and still work, but if they stop working, then it's unlikely that I can get them repaired as the electronic components are no longer available. That's just a fact of life. In Australia, once a car model ceases to be sold, the manufacturer has to supply parts for 10 years after the last sale of that model, after that there's no obligation to continue.

With software, there's no guarantee that existing software will work with new OS versions. For years Microsoft has tried to make Windows OS backwards compatible as much as possible (which has caused its own problems); Apple just dumps its customers and moves on to a new OS.

But at the end of the day, your BMPCC isn't broken. Complain to the SD card manufacturers about not making their cards backwards compatible with older devices, not Blackmagic. And, if you don't like the fact that Blackmagic doesn't do what you say, move on to another brand and follow that old saying 'the grass is always greener'.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 12:17 am

With the same argument, Sony could also sentence the customers, but they didn't do it and provided a firmware and everyone was satisfied. As the user Robert Niessner already mentioned, it would be a neat gesture if Blackmagic would take care of it.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 1:25 am

Yes, if this was an issue BMD could fix with firmware. If it was, they would have done so. BMD does not have any control over the SD card manufacturers, and they reserve the right to change their products when needed. BM lost a LCD panel supplier, found another for the new Pocket 4K but had to change the FW to implement it on the camera, so now we have two differed OS FW for the two different versions of the same camera, that are not interchangeable, the newer camera can not use the older FW version, so no way to go back to CDNG on the newer cameras.

Technology moves on, and so must we. Sound Devices discontinued its Pix Recorder’s, closed the Video Devices branch, but does this make all the PixE recorder monitors from being used? No, I will continue to use mine as long as I can. When a system gets old, and no longer supported, one must plan ahead, and get the supporting parts, like recording media while they can, to extend a devices useable life.

HD video has buried SD, you can not linger buy new SD cameras, but a lot of them are still out in the field being used. I still have a Canon XL2 in my collection, UMatic, Betta 1/2, Hi8 and DVcam recorder’s and stocked up on tape in my studio when I could. Anyone one needing video tape can PM me. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 2:52 am

Denny Smith wrote:
HD video has buried SD, you can not linger buy new SD cameras,



But I can still buy miniDV and DVCam tape.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?c ... 9945370&DV

But I can't buy a compatible card for the BMPCC.

Actually, the less expensive first step would be if Blackmagic tested some SD cards to see if any are compatible unless they already know none are.

On the other side Blackmagic tested the discontinued 512GB Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-1 card and confirmed its compatibility with the BMPCC 4K (it's compatible with the BMPCC as well).
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 3:44 am

Craig Seeman wrote:Actually, the less expensive first step would be if Blackmagic tested some SD cards to see if any are compatible unless they already know none are.

On the other side Blackmagic tested the discontinued 512GB Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-1 card and confirmed its compatibility with the BMPCC 4K (it's compatible with the BMPCC as well).


How is it less expensive? It's not just a matter of buying a sample of SD cards, it's more a matter of putting aside staff and other resources to run tests on cards and cameras. That means a number of detailed tests and not just putting a card in a camera and running it for five seconds. This costs money and takes staff away from other tasks that are likely far more important.

If you think it's not expensive and easy to do, go buy a bunch of SD cards and do the tests yourself. That's what I've done with my Samsung cards and BMPCC4K.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 6:56 pm

I'm just now encountering this problem with newer SD cards, In my case a Oddly enough my older Panasonic AF100 can see and use these newer cards just fine. Seeing as some resellers are still selling the BMPCC the least BMD could do is offer a firmware update to allow these cards to be recognized if possible
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 7:24 pm

Thanks everyone for the updates.

I tested shooting RAW on the BMPCC with the SanDisk Extreme Cards over the last few days (Model no. SDXC UHS-I Card SDSDXPA-512G-G46). No frames dropped over several hours of shooting.

As someone rightfully mentioned in a previous forum or perhaps in this one - for BM not to provide a more extensive, long term solution is a real missed opportunity. Given the amount of time and money it takes to build a proper rig most BM users will go on to purchase the 4K, Cinema Camera, keep as b-roll or similar. People are generally committed to these products for the long-haul. It's a bit in poor taste - but such is life.

Thanks again to everyone that keeps testing - I will get some more tests done soon as well.

With that said, I'm not sure the Sony cards are the most reliable solution for RAW. In any case will keep following everyones progress.

All the best!
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 9:38 pm

Australian Image wrote:
Craig Seeman wrote:Actually, the less expensive first step would be if Blackmagic tested some SD cards to see if any are compatible unless they already know none are.

On the other side Blackmagic tested the discontinued 512GB Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-1 card and confirmed its compatibility with the BMPCC 4K (it's compatible with the BMPCC as well).


How is it less expensive? It's not just a matter of buying a sample of SD cards, it's more a matter of putting aside staff and other resources to run tests on cards and cameras. That means a number of detailed tests and not just putting a card in a camera and running it for five seconds. This costs money and takes staff away from other tasks that are likely far more important.

If you think it's not expensive and easy to do, go buy a bunch of SD cards and do the tests yourself. That's what I've done with my Samsung cards and BMPCC4K.


Which is still less expensive than assigning programmers to design a firmware update if that is even possible. QA test on cards has a cost but it's less than firmware development. I didn't say free, I said less expensive.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 9:42 pm

RTESCONDIT wrote:Thanks everyone for the updates.

I tested shooting RAW on the BMPCC with the SanDisk Extreme Cards over the last few days (Model no. SDXC UHS-I Card SDSDXPA-512G-G46). No frames dropped over several hours of shooting.


Sure but this is an old card. I think once stock is depleted they're gone. Replaced by the newer V30 card.
I think the older cards have a higher sustained rate. Keep in mind the write rate is the peak rate. They often don't report the sustained/minimum rate in the specs.
https://amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-SDXC ... B00NP699ZI
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 9:55 pm

Craig Seeman wrote:Which is still less expensive than assigning programmers to design a firmware update if that is even possible. QA test on cards has a cost but it's less than firmware development. I didn't say free, I said less expensive.


So Blackmagic should divert resources towards research on a superseded product that may, for all intents and purposes, prove to be fruitless. This sounds like a crowdfunding project that all BMPCC owners could contribute towards and fund Blackmagic so that they can do this research so ardently sought.

I mean, what's there to lose? It's either successful or not. A significant number of crowdfunded projects go wheels up and the investors lose their money, but hey, at least with this crowdfunded project, those going into it know full well that it might be a complete bust.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 10:14 pm

You're correct in that it is an older version of the card, but the card I tested was new.

Yes, once the older versions disappear from stock shooting RAW consistently on the BMPCC (non 4K) will not be possible I'm afraid. I also tested several Lexar Professional 2000x 300 mb/s that registered as 'NO CARD', and several SanDisk Extreme Pro 95 mb/s with model no.'s starting with SDSDXXG - also registered as 'NO CARD'.

Hoping there's viable a solution for RAW on the BMPCC in sight...


Craig Seeman wrote:
RTESCONDIT wrote:Thanks everyone for the updates.

I tested shooting RAW on the BMPCC with the SanDisk Extreme Cards over the last few days (Model no. SDXC UHS-I Card SDSDXPA-512G-G46). No frames dropped over several hours of shooting.


Sure but this is an old card. I think once stock is depleted they're gone. Replaced by the newer V30 card.
I think the older cards have a higher sustained rate. Keep in mind the write rate is the peak rate. They often don't report the sustained/minimum rate in the specs.
https://amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-SDXC ... B00NP699ZI
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 12:49 am

One should simply express one's opinion directly and honestly, and I am doing so now.

Again and again, reference is made to the new products. But the customer does not want to replace it, he wants to use it further. It is also not about pointing out new BMD products and telling him that his device is outdated.

This is exactly what strengthens the assumption that BMD follows a philosophy that not everyone finds good. If there was a survey, the result would be the same: Most people don't like it.

A professional cinema camera is something different than a smartphone, which some people change as often as the poor man on the street changes his socks or underpants. Sad but true!

What has changed so great with the new BMD products and other camera manufacturers? Larger resolution? NO THANKS! BRAW? NO THANKS! DualISO? NO THANKS (I don't want a night vision device! I'm fine with Cinema DNG, ProRes and yes, a Super16 Sensor).

BMD don't have to buy new programmers to fix the problem with SD cards. It's certainly not more expensive than testing all the cards in the world (that's much more expensive). The programmers who worked on old BMD OS were certainly not Chinese, Korean or Japanese pensioners who died after about 5 years, so they can't work on the previous BMD system today.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 1:18 am

The point is that everyone is blaming Blackmagic, as well as suggesting that they don't care, without knowing anything about the real issues involved.

Asking what people want is a pointless exercise. Of course BMPCC owners will want full support for the camera until 2100 at least. People will simply want anything as long as they don't have to pay for it.

With the BMPCC4K, Blackmagic has garnered a whole new group of users, many who would never have considered a Blackmagic camera. And the long time users can now complement their Ursas with the BMPCC4K because it fits so well into their workflow.

And given that the BMPCC cost less than many mobile phones, as does the BMPCC4K, maybe it's time to change those socks.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 1:53 am

Asking what people want is a pointless exercise. Of course BMPCC owners will want full support for the camera until 2100 at least. People will simply want anything as long as they don't have to pay for it.


Nonsense. In this case you ONLY want BMPCC (Video Assist, Micro) to recognize SD cards. Sony has proven that this is a firmware thing. And BMPCC is FPGA and therefore the problem can be solved. The BMD boss explained in a BMPCC4K video what exactly FPGA means. Why does this suddenly not apply to the older BMD FPGA products? Does it have something to do with the critical philosophy? Apparently!

Not until 2100. The BMPCC was supported until 2015. Since 2015 it has not been improved, the internal microphone has even been deteriorated with firmware 1.8 and the problem with 2.1 has not been fixed. So the philosophy seems to be that BMD offers max. 2 years firmware support. Bugs will not be fixed afterwards. If the warranty has expired, the camera will not be repaired. Is that good? NO!

With the BMPCC4K, Blackmagic has garnered a whole new group of users, many who would never have considered a Blackmagic camera.


And with the problem BMPCC does not recognize SD cards, many lost. And many of them know what will happen with BMPCC4K in a few years. Unlike today with ignored BMPCC customers? NO.

In addition, I often read about dissatisfaction with BMPCC4K. Since FW Downgrade is no longer possible to use CinemaDNG, many are also sold on used market again.

And given that the BMPCC cost less than many mobile phones, as does the BMPCC4K, maybe it's time to change those socks.


In such a case, the socks are not BMPCC, but the manufacturer is the sock. I already know some who sold Video Assist, BMMCC, BMPCC, but not to buy a BMPCC4K, but to buy another camera from another manufacturer (...Z-Cam E2...). There are better alternatives already. And if BMD follows the critical philosophy, then all the better and more important to simply change the manufacturer.

The customers do not want a new camera here, but have a problem and ask BMD for a solution. It would be a nice gesture, if BMD would take care of it, instead of nonsensical answers of some users who do not contribute to any support but act as an advertising instrument.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 2:08 am

Given some threads, users want a lot more, such as high frame rates. But again, everyone is just guessing and promoting the worse case scenario as to why the BMPCC can't read every SD card produced, now and in the future.

I suspect that for every one lost user, Blackmagic has probably gained a 100 new users with the BMPCC4K. I remember when the BMPCC came out (it was a camera I thought about getting), but can't remember seeing any similar waiting lists like there has been for the BMPCC4K.

Use BRAW, it's way better and more practical than CDNG. The older models are being sold for a high profit because some refuse to give up on CDNG and there's always someone ready to make a profit. Phineas T Barnum had a saying for that.

Wow! You know a person who sold their Blackmagic gear for a Z-Cam. I know someone that sold their Canon gear for Sony, that's it for Canon for sure.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 3:03 am

lee4ever wrote:The BMPCC was supported until 2015.


While firmware update stopped, the BMPCC was sold up until around the time BMPCC 4K was announced so there are people who bought the camera new as recently as early 2018 and one year later can't buy compatible recording media. Least some forget, the "end" is fairly recent. It should not be based on release date or last firmware update but when sale ceased.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 4:32 am

Australian Image wrote:I suspect that for every one lost user, Blackmagic has probably gained a 100 new users with the BMPCC4K. I remember when the BMPCC came out (it was a camera I thought about getting), but can't remember seeing any similar waiting lists like there has been for the BMPCC4K.


I read more often that the BMPCC is the most sold BMD camera. At that time there were also waiting times.
The old BMD cameras take very nice shot. The real reason why they are so popular. You can already see how popular the BMPCC is here and now. Alone in this thread. It is still important to people today that the firmware is still supported by the BMPCC.
Waiting list can also have other reasons. I read on the net that had problems with global shutter at that time. At some point BMD decided to deliver the cameras without global shutter because people were waiting for a long time.

Also with the BMPCC4K, it can be due to the exchanged screen. Or there may be other problems we'll never know about. It can have several reasons, but certainly not ONLY because BMPCC4K and BRAW are so great.


Use BRAW, it's way better and more practical than CDNG.


No, thanks. I find CinemaDNG better.

Wow! You know a person who sold their Blackmagic gear for a Z-Cam. I know someone that sold their Canon gear for Sony, that's it for Canon for sure


Z-CAM as comparison because Z-CAM is not too expensive and is a good cinema camera. BMD is no longer a special exception.

There are many alternatives, but with Z-CAM we finally have a somewhat cheaper and even better alternative.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 4:56 am

I look further than this forum, which is a place where you'd expect to hear from BMPCC users. I see more and more users on Blogs, YouTube etc that are raving about their BMPCC4K. The comments sections of YouTube shows that for each YouTuber talking about their BMPCC4K, there's a heap more who own one or are waiting for theirs to arrive.

With BRAW and ProRes RAW, RED RAW, ARRI RAW, I suspect that CDNG is becoming a redundant format. Good riddance to Adobe crap.

US$2000 for Z-Cam 4K body only, no battery, no monitor, 1 x CFast slot only, ProRes & H.265 only; it certainly sounds so much better.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 3:51 pm

Craig Seeman wrote:
lee4ever wrote:The BMPCC was supported until 2015.


While firmware update stopped, the BMPCC was sold up until around the time BMPCC 4K was announced so there are people who bought the camera new as recently as early 2018 and one year later can't buy compatible recording media. Least some forget, the "end" is fairly recent. It should not be based on release date or last firmware update but when sale ceased.


I'll add that this may also be affecting current products like the Video Assist and Micro camera.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 4:04 pm

Australian Image wrote:
I suspect that for every one lost user, Blackmagic has probably gained a 100 new users with the BMPCC4K.


Ray, I suspect that you will change your mind only in case when we all one day will see new topic as follows:))

<"No Card" Issue BMPCC4K>

and all this will happened with camera still in production and sale. And somebody will have this camera still new in box from BM.

It's not clear for me why so many users should buy a lot of different SD cards available on the marked and provide there own tests. Lost a lot of money and time. At the same moment all this cards with tech.data are available in BM tech/department. (I cann't imagine the situation if not.)
Why BM do not update information for Micro and BMPCC users list of available SD cards.

It's clear that this policy is a direct BM negative balance.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 8:45 pm

Valery Axenov wrote:Ray, I suspect that you will change your mind only in case when we all one day will see new topic as follows:))

<"No Card" Issue BMPCC4K>

and all this will happened with camera still in production and sale. And somebody will have this camera still new in box from BM.


Given that I use T5 SSDs, I suspect that's unlikely to happen. And in six or so years it's likely that I'd be more interested in a new camera anyway.

It's not clear for me why so many users should buy a lot of different SD cards available on the marked and provide there own tests. Lost a lot of money and time. At the same moment all this cards with tech.data are available in BM tech/department. (I cann't imagine the situation if not.)
Why BM do not update information for Micro and BMPCC users list of available SD cards.

It's clear that this policy is a direct BM negative balance.


Who is to definitively say that Blackmagic has copies of every SD card available? Why don't BMPCC users get together as a collective and start testing every card available and compile a list of what works and what does not? Spread the time and cost around.

All I keep seeing are people buying the same Sandisk cards and then complaining that they don't work. It's like Groundhog Day on this forum when it comes to Sandisk. And it's like no one reads anything that's been previously posted even if it's No1 on Page 1.

Often it's best to get up and do things yourself, rather than waiting for someone else to do if for you.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 9:07 pm

Australian Image wrote:
Who is to definitively say that Blackmagic has copies of every SD card available? Why don't BMPCC users get together as a collective and start testing every card available and compile a list of what works and what does not? Spread the time and cost around.

All I keep seeing are people buying the same Sandisk cards and then complaining that they don't work. It's like Groundhog Day on this forum when it comes to Sandisk. And it's like no one reads anything that's been previously posted even if it's No1 on Page 1.

Often it's best to get up and do things yourself, rather than waiting for someone else to do if for you.




A lot of testing has already been done and there's a bit taking place across the many forums and websites. It's a well documented issue, but there's quite a few factors that determine whether the cards will work.

In any case, I'm currently testing some and welcome any help. Any posts outlining success or failure would be appreciated...
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 pm

RTESCONDIT wrote:A lot of testing has already been done and there's a bit taking place across the many forums and websites. It's a well documented issue, but there's quite a few factors that determine whether the cards will work.

In any case, I'm currently testing some and welcome any help. Any posts outlining success or failure would be appreciated...


Yes, I know some are testing different cards, but there is still this determination to make Sandisk cards work come hell or high water.

Given that you can buy SD cards (low capacity) for less than a cup of coffee, I think it shouldn't be too difficult to test a range of cards for little cost.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 12:13 am

Australian Image wrote:
Yes, I know some are testing different cards, but there is still this determination to make Sandisk cards work come hell or high water.

Given that you can buy SD cards (low capacity) for less than a cup of coffee, I think it shouldn't be too difficult to test a range of cards for little cost.



You're more than welcome to help test.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 12:14 am

[quote="Australian Image"]

Given that I use T5 SSDs, I suspect that's unlikely to happen. And in six or so years it's likely that I'd be more interested in a new camera anyway.

[quote]

)) Imagine that next year you upgrade to new BM filmware with better BRAW and your camera at the same moment will stop support your T5 SSDs (Somebody will think that it is to old and you need to upgrade it to a new generation with better controler inside). That's what Micro and BMPCC users think about all this deal at the moment.)

BM operate first datasheet and know well all supported protocols of available on the market SD card. This concerning Micro and BMPCC as well. If not how do they develop new production? If new BMPCC4K accept new SanDisk SD cards you has clean reply to this question. And all this information was available to BM couple of years ego at stage of technical task for this camera and it software.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 12:24 am

RTESCONDIT wrote:You're more than welcome to help test.


Send me a BMPCC and I'll gladly help test.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 12:35 am

Valery Axenov wrote:)) Imagine that next year you upgrade to new BM filmware with better BRAW and your camera at the same moment will stop support your T5 SSDs (Somebody will think that it is to old and you need to upgrade it to a new generation with better controler inside). That's what Micro and BMPCC users think about all this deal at the moment.)

BM operate first datasheet and know well all supported protocols of available on the market SD card. This concerning Micro and BMPCC as well. If not how do they develop new production? If new BMPCC4K accept new SanDisk SD cards you has clean reply to this question. And all this information was available to BM couple of years ego at stage of technical task for this camera and it software.


Given that the issue with the BMPCC has nothing to do with the firmware version but the fact that SD card technology has change significantly, and that the BMPCC came out in 2013, designed for SD cards of the era and it's now 2019, I have serious doubts that any firmware updates to the BMPCC4K will suddenly make the T5 SSDs redundant in 2025.

And as for SD cards for the BMPCC4K, I use a Samsung micro-SD card that seems to work quite well, and which I use as a backup should the need arise. See, I actually do test out different cards, rather than just defaulting to Sandisk.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 1:56 am

This will be my last post on this forum, it was fun while it lasted, and I will continue to post on the !ive Production forum on issues I can comment about. I have sold most of my BMD Cinema equipment, going instead with the Ursa Broadcast, as must of my work is for Broadcast these days, aside from a few personal projects I will continue to work on.

When it first started, this forum was great, with everyone trying to help each other about using the new advanced designed BMD Cinema Cameras, starting with the BMCC. Working together to so,be issues and shortcomings using these new wonderful cameras. We even tried pushing them to do things BMD did not have in mind when they were designed, like using the Micro camera as a stand alone small production camera, instead of the action camera BMD thought they were making. The Pocket Cinema ground broke new ground with a very lost cost (consumer level $) camera that was very capable for more than it was designed for. I do have all the answers, and do not even presume to know them.

Unfortunately, this forum has become like every other consumer camera forum, a place to complain about shortcomings in equipment, complain why this or that is not fixed by BMD, and ask for features not part of the original design specification, with no view in in mind to offer solutions. Very few of the original posters here are around any more, except for Rick and the occasional input from John Brawley and others who helped start this forum. John B is one of the more knowledgeable users here about BMD and their gear, but most of you are too busy saying what you think BMD should/could do, without any real knowledge of what is involved. This has come to a head over the BMPPCC and Micro Cinema Camera SD card issues. Sometimes, you need to stop and listen to the birds sing. :mrgreen:

When BMD designed the BMPCC, only a handful of SD cards worked then. The issue is. It the camera firmware, but the large data rate this camera needs to record ProRes and RW CDNG files at video camera frame rates. Compared to AVCHD/h.264 compression, this is huge! When the ca era was being developed, the fastest cards available then were SanDisk UHS 1 Extreme Pro cards (95Mbs) that could sustain a fast enough continuous data write speed, and BMD built this camera around those fast cards from SanDisk and Lexar. No other camera being made then required this kink of continuous write speed, and very few (non BMD) cameras today need this kind of a data rates. Those that do, like Red Cinema Cameras have their own media made.

BMD has no control over SD card manufacturers, who end up changing the specifications of their products, like SanDisk did with the Extreme Pro 95Mbs cards, nor is it likely SanDisk notified the camera makers, like BMD using their cards, that they were going to change the way the card writes fast data rate files to its cards.

Their is Not any firmware patch that BM could make to the camera, short of replacing ProRes with a compressed AVCHD codec to reduce the required data rate, to make it work with a SD card that can not sustain a continuous write speed fast enough to record the data rate. This would require adding a hardware buffer to take the fast data rate from the sensor and spool it to the recording media, which is what some camera makers do. This is not possible with just a firmware update to the camera.

The issue Sony had with some of its cameras is not the same issue as BMD is having with SD Card Support. The only other solution if a replacement SD card is not available, is to have one built to BMD specifications, like Red does with their recording media, and sell it directly through its distributors. This would no doubt drive up the cost of said SD card above what SanDisk sold them for, by two to three times.

SD cards as a recording media for Prosummer and professional video is on its way out the door, soon to be replaced in two or three years (Camera manufacturing cycle) by CFExpress format cards, which can produce the required sustained write speeds for professional recording codecs like ProRes and other raw formats. Sony’s solution was to be involved in the development and manufacturing of XQD cards, that use the same interface as CFExpress cards will use. To upgrade a XQD card slot to use CFExpress cards, is a firmware update change, that was already part of the existing hardware.

You can rant on about what you would like BMD to do, but most of this is just plain unrealistic and is not going to solve the problem. I saw this coming with the change to UHS2 SD cards, and knew the days were numbered for compatible SD cards for the BMD HD cameras and the VA, and sold the VA, Pocket Cinema and Micro Cameras last year, while I could still get some $ for them.

The only other solution for recording ProRes (not Raw) is to use an external recorder monitor (not a VA 5-inch) to record from the camera output. This is what I am doing with the Micro Studio Camera, recording ProRes to a PixE 5, and even this recorder has been discontinued, along with the entire Pix line. So nothing lasts very long in this business, time to move on... :roll:
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 2:12 am

Hear, hear!
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 2:16 am

Thank you Ray, and now I bid a good night to you and to all.
Cheers
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 8:32 am

BMD has no control over SD card manufacturers...
Their is Not any firmware patch that BM could make to the camera...
The issue Sony had with some of its cameras is not the same issue as BMD is having with SD Card Support...


Can you prove that what you're saying is true?
And no, what they're saying isn't true. Sony had exactly the same problem and fixed it with firmware update.
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 4:47 pm

Sony’s cameras do not have the high recording data rates, as they use AVCHD, 8-bit, 4.2.0 on their mirrorless and small camcorders. BMD is using 10-bit, 4.2.2.

No proof, just repeating what I have read from BMD and other knowledgeable sources, who u derstsnd the engineering involved. But in any case Lee, it is a dead issue...
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Re: BMPCC (non 4k) with Sony 64GB 95mb/s

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 8:10 pm

BTW it seems Sandisk is actually still selling the original cards that work with the BMPCC
https://www.sandisk.com/home/memory-car ... s-i-90mbps
and they're available on Amazon
https://amazon.com/dp/B00NP699ZI/
These are the original, not the newer V30 and you can see on Amazon they're designated "Old Generation"

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