BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

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BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostTue Jun 25, 2019 10:15 pm

I've recently noted a surge in YouTube videos with a theme arguing that the BMPCC4K isn't the inexpensive cinema camera supposedly being advertised. These vloggers are saying that to make it usable you need to spend thousands on accessories, thus making it a much more expensive camera.

I've debated this on a couple of vlogs to try and provide some balance, at least for the viewers, pointing out that the assumed requirement for many accessories and the prices quoted are quite unnecessary depending on your needs. I point out that you can quite easily use the camera with just a lens, if that is all you need, which can be used with say a gimbal or small tripod, or even without using a stabilised lens

These vloggers (one is a film maker and not just a vlogger) refuse to accept that you can do without all the accessories they insist are required. Some even try and rebut my comments by comparing the BMPCC4K to the likes of a C200 and when that's not enough, they start comparing sensor sizes etc.

I find it kind of weird that this has suddenly arisen, almost in unison in recent weeks, as if there was a concerted effort by these vloggers (notably when they reference each other) to start this sort of campaign. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it sure does seem odd.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 2:05 am

No shortage of agendas out there. According to a very recent article by the CBC (Canada Broadcasting Corporation) who are monitoring ‘fake’ news, there are two ways fake news wins:
1) people get very tired of getting embroiled in the arguments and corrections (counter arguments) so they tune out of the conversation and

2) people tend to remember the first thing they learn about something, not the second or third version.

The solution?
1) Read responsible sites and ignore the headline seeking or heavily skewed sites.

2) Don’t rely on one source.


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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 2:33 am

I agree with that, but these opinions are coming from YouTubers that are widely followed in the film/video genre. They unfortunately send a very ill-informed message to many viewers, viewers take their word as gospel. And to still hear the same old complaints that people voiced since last year, as if they are something new to everyone, is wearing a bit thin.

And what's more perturbing is that some of the videos ostensibly have nothing to do with the BMPCC4K (by the vlogger's own admission), other than the title, yet half the video is bagging the BMPCC4K. It's also interesting to note that all of a sudden a bunch of YouTubers all decide to present virtually the same video, with the same old complaints, within weeks of each other.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 6:27 am

Most of that kids coming from, waving around a DSLR over some skateboarding friends and that's what they call filmmaking.

Most of them don't understand, that your work as DP is over 90% IN FRONT of the camera, so they are always hope that some magic camera, or accessory, or gear, or LUT etc. will make them better images

Of course it doesn't, but that's why they are so gear/specs focused - they think they can cut corners by buying gear, instead of developing skills.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 7:14 am

Unfortunately, these aren't kids posting videos, but film makers of one sort or another, those who are making a living from film making (I won't dispute their word) and YouTube is obviously another aspect of their income generation.

Now I have no issue whatsoever if they make it quite clear that any camera they discuss that doesn't meet 'their' needs, for the reasons they give is for their situation only, but it annoys me when they imply that their reasons apply to everyone and everyone's situation.

The problem is that if no one refutes what's said, then it becomes a given.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 10:32 am

There were similar videos and reviews about the original BMPCC when it first came out.

For example: https://wolfcrow.com/the-blackmagic-poc ... amera-kit/ (bottom line quote: "The Blackmagic Pocket camera really isn’t $995 if you’re starting from scratch. It’s more like $4,000 (for just starters) to $7,000 (minimum professional kit)."

Obviously the BMPCC 4K improves on many of the original's shortcomings but how much extra you need to spend depends on your specific needs and the kinds of projects you work on.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 10:48 am

Brad Hurley wrote:Obviously the BMPCC 4K improves on many of the original's shortcomings but how much extra you need to spend depends on your specific needs and the kinds of projects you work on.


That's precisely the point I tried to make to a couple of the posters, but it's something they just didn't want to acknowledge. It's like any craft, depending on what you want to produce, will dictate what you need to buy. And today there are quality tools available at just about any price point.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 12:33 pm

One challenge, debating if you need or don’t need accessories, is that it’s highly subjective. That’s not a big problem, but can become one. Stating the possible as impossible is a downright lie. And there lays the problem. People telling others one almighty truth, even though there are many other possibilities and options. Like stating that it’s impossible to shoot with the bmpcc4k without a gimbal. That’s a lie, but someone might tell you that’s the case because the pocket don’t have IBIS.

I can understand people back off in a discussion where mr.”know it
all” spread out all this ill tempered misinformation. It’s almost impossible to defeat. And you never know when you hit a troll that has no intention, what so ever, making it a positive discussion.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 12:39 pm

Like stating that it’s impossible to shoot with the bmpcc4k without a gimbal.


Yeah, I shot with a lot of DSLR with no IBIS on steadicams and shoulder mounts, it was fine. Every camera before the 20th century didn't have IBIS, did the movies look worse then ? :)

There's a point most videographers tend to forget these days, it's that every accessories you can buy to expand your BMPCC can be found secondhand, cutting down the budget by quite a lot.
That's the case for me : when I started buying my cameras long ago, I realized the only thing I really needed new was the camera itself. By buying secondhand (or even vintage to antique in some cases !) I was able to get much better quality items than what I would have new (especially for lenses and lighting).

But appart from this, I wonder what these men suggest buying instead of the BMPCC4K ? At this price point, it seems to me that every camera needs accessories (unless it's an old school camcorder without interchangeable lenses) ? Does the others offer 4K and FHD 120fps in RAW on SD cards ? The possibility to record in Prores ? Do they offer a professional editing and color grading software included ? I spent myself a lot of time comparing cameras at this price point before buying and, unless there's some I'm unaware of, no other had such interesting specs for professional work.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 3:11 pm

I do not go to MacD’s and I do not watch the YouTube cowboys and their miss information — so if it bugs you, don’t watch it, problem solved. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostWed Jun 26, 2019 8:50 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I do not go to MacD’s and I do not watch the YouTube cowboys and their miss information — so if it bugs you, don’t watch it, problem solved. :roll:
Cheers


The thing about YouTube is that while there's a lot of crap there, it also contains a lot of useful information, stuff that I've found quite valuable and from unexpected sources. You have to suffer the crap at times in order to find the useful stuff. It's like trying different food, until you give it a go, you won't know whether you'll like it.

I've stopped watching several well known photographers/videographers (very good ones at that) because their videos are now more advertorials than anything else. It's like watching the advertising crap on TV that infests every program break, and often within the program itself.

If you note, most YouTubers have a 30sec intro to every video, because if they don't and a viewer moves on because the content doesn't interest them, YouTube doesn't count it as a view. But more so, I suspect that perhaps competition in the eyeball stakes and maybe less paid work is forcing some reputable YouTubers to start using clickbait and controversial content to get more hits.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostThu Jun 27, 2019 10:12 pm

I'd argue that it is exactly the cheap camera it's advertised to be. It comes with a battery and a power adapter. Add a media card and lens and you can shoot amazing footage with it. Sure, you might need an extra battery or five but I'm sure every single one of those vloggers have bought extra batteries for their cameras at some point. Anything beyond that is a want, not a need.

The thing about vloggers is that they need to keep reeling viewers in, so if one person gets a big response by criticising a camera, they'll all jump on that band wagon until the next thing comes along. They'll all find something else to love, then hate, in a couple of months.

The vloggers main influence is on newbie shooters at best, and those newcomers will live and learn. Professional users tend to know exactly what they're buying into, usually from talking to people who are actually using the camera day to day, and aren't fooled by YouTube videos.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostThu Jun 27, 2019 10:19 pm

I think that's probably the nub of it, competition on YouTube is fierce at the best of times and like with TV shows, when something grabs viewers, all the others try to copy. But when it comes to those who are professionals and use YouTube as a secondary medium, I really think that it behoves them to be professional in their videos as well.

The stuff I sometimes see almost makes one think that some brands are offering incentives for these YouTubers to put down certain products to enhance their gear. It's certainly not unheard of having company shills or fanboys coming on product forums and bagging alternative products. It's a bit like some incessantly bagging the BMPCC4K and lauding the BMPCC. :)
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostFri Jun 28, 2019 7:46 am

Yeah, I had a long running argument with a recent vlogger. Funnily enough another Youtube vlogger (who primarily posts videos about his GH5s) joined in the argument against me.
The video was specifically about - the cost of the most basic set up for the BMPCC4K.
What worried me was that many of the comments below the video were from non-BMD users who thanked the vlogger for explaining the 'true cost' of the most 'basic' set up.
Unfortunately this vlogger had included a $600 Metabones 'speedbooster' adapter as an absolute necessity for the BMPCC4K.
Absolute nonsense, but they would not back down when I pointed this out.
Fact is, I AM a low budget basic user of the BMPCC4K....and the BMPCC before it.
I had a metabones speedbooster for my BMPCC and I used it on and off, creatively I would say, it wasn't a necessity for all my shots. As such, I have not bought a new speed booster for my BMPCC4K and don't really feel the need for one right now.
I am making videos, albeit for my own business, not for clients. But I'm NOT just shooting demo videos of the BMPCC4K, I'm making actual short films.
In short, to insist adding $600 to a camera that costs $1200 initially is a gross exaggeration.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostFri Jun 28, 2019 7:54 am

Australian Image wrote:The stuff I sometimes see almost makes one think that some brands are offering incentives for these YouTubers to put down certain products to enhance their gear. It's certainly not unheard of having company shills or fanboys coming on product forums and bagging alternative products. It's a bit like some incessantly bagging the BMPCC4K and lauding the BMPCC. :)


Coming from the music industry, it's very subtle in how it manifests.
I have seen some quite innocent, genuine Youtubers who started out five or so years ago giving genuine advice, who now receive pre-production gear to review, which obviously creates content and drives views to their social media accounts.
It doesn't have to be payment, or free/discounted gear. It's VIP access to new product.
I've been a professional musician for 40+ years, like many of you have been professional film-makers. I see people who have never made a record, never even played a gig, being given special VIP status by gear manufacturers.
To be clear, I'm fine about that, I'm a realist. But if you are a bedroom musician it's hard to really know what's important about a new piece of equipment. The same goes for video I'm sure. If you aren't making films under pressure and for exacting clients, you aren't going to know what the key accessories for your camera really are.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostFri Jun 28, 2019 8:25 am

That's what seems to be going on and I think I've come across four such videos this month alone, each one pretty much parroting the other with much the same commentary and a few dissenters trying their best. I just find it sad that this is the level to which some, who have a reputation (or had one), are prepared to stoop to in order to get clicks.

Thankfully there are still those who provide genuinely informative videos from whom you can actually learn and they do it in an entertaining fashion. One such person is found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmRE4g ... Q/featured. The quality over other vloggers is elevated significantly when they not only talk about a product, but produce something with it to motivate others.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostFri Jun 28, 2019 7:43 pm

This won't be a popular post, but I have to disagree.

I bought a BMPCC4K and by itself, a lens (top-heavy) and a battery, you CAN NOT shoot professionally. It's too awkward to shoot and with no image stabilization, no matter how good the stance and lens, shake is inevitable. Awkward may be fine for youngsters, but at 51, I can not hold that puppy very long with the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 art lens and just a battery that lasts for 30 to 40 minutes.

The battery life is dismal (coming from Panasonic GH5 and JVC LS-300 where battery life is excellent), so I would have to have 6 to 10 of them on hand and switching constantly is just unprofessional.

I love the BMPCC4K but it's just waiting to break with one or more drops. I will not spend that kind of money, regardless of how inexpensive the camera seems to be, without proper protection (ah the jokes I could make right now).

So.....

I bought a cage, top handle, 15mm rods, a large V-Mount battery and what it needs to be attached - for a solid 6 hours of recording time. I bought a 7" monitor with a swivel so I could do all kinds of shots - from up in the air to down low - and with glasses, since there is no viewfinder, I can actually "see" what I am doing so I can frame the shot, focus it properly, etc.

After all was said and done, my $1,300 investment (actually $1,600 because it was a combo with a metabones speedbooster ultra XL Canon EF to MFT - needed for the Sigma lens), I spent an additional $2,400 on various parts (mostly smallrig) and hardware.

NOW it is worthy of taking on a professional shoot, rock solid, so if dropped, should not break (except maybe the lens) and can last for hours without swapping a zillion batteries - because shoots don't take an hour - they're usually full day affairs. AND you have to look professional to boot. Clients won't want to pay you if you look like you're bringing a consumer camera to a pro shoot (really, what do they know???). It's all image and assumption.

You know what else. Now it's heavy as hell. Damn...

At least the way it's rigged, I can take it off the rig, put a camera strap on it and look like a typical tourist rather easily.

99% of the time it's on tripod or on my A2000 gimbal, however.

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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostFri Jun 28, 2019 8:51 pm

karmacomposer wrote:This won't be a popular post, but I have to disagree.

I bought a BMPCC4K and by itself, a lens (top-heavy) and a battery, you CAN NOT shoot professionally.


You see, that's where you're wrong. Many buy this camera not to shoot professionally, but to get a very affordable cinema camera for personal use. With a lens such as the Olympus 12-100mm, which has OIS, it's easy to get hand held shots and not require anything more. A couple of batteries will probably do more than enough for the average user. And being able to use SD cards is a bonus.

Then there are those who buy the camera to advance from their existing cameras to something better, but still not for full professional use. It may be for things such as YouTube videos of their travels etc. Again, with a minimal setup, the BMPCC4K can accommodate that quite easily. One of the points about the BMPCC4K is that it makes for a very compact travel camera.

Then there are those who will use it either as an A or B camera and, as professionals, would have understood the need for accessories to meet their filming needs. These needs may be no more than a gimbal and monitor to use it as the B cam with their more kitted up Ursa. But the need for those accessories would have been decided long before buying the camera, based on experience.

So you see, there are many and varied needs and uses, of which those three examples are but a few. What accessories, lenses etc you buy for your setup is your choice, you can do with just a lens if the need demands. Or you can spend as much as you can afford, buying the most expensive lenses and accessories on the market.

Now as for weight, again, again it's all up to your needs and uses. My rig weighs 8+kg, yet at 64 i can hand hold and carry the camera around without issue. However, I now use an Easyrig for all day stuff, as that also gives me much more versatility and isn't as painful to lug around all day as a rig attached to a tripod. I guess having been a news and sport photographer lugging around stacks of gear had some benefits.

Of course there are many that have been caught up in the hype that this is an inexpensive and fantastic cinema camera, which it is, ironically by those same vloggers who now paint a different picture. These buyers suddenly realise that they have bought into the system with their eyes shut. Many of these new owners would have been better off staying with what they had.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSat Jun 29, 2019 2:03 am

Then I will ammend my post to say that, professionally and for hire, you need to accessorize quite a bit.

For amateur and hobbyist, whatever.

I bought this as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th 4K video camera/cinema camera for its excellent low light dual ISO capability, 12 bit BRAW and ProRes recording and amazing color science, not to mention a full copy of DaVinci Resolve Studio.

My other cameras are a Panasonic GH5 (rigged out), a JVC GY-LS300 removable lens full 35mm sensor and a JVC GY-LS200 (fixed lens).

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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSat Jun 29, 2019 2:21 am

But then the arguments in the videos I was discussing, where the vloggers state that the BMPC4K costs much more than US$1200 or so, are fallacious. The BMPCC4K only costs you as much as you need to spend.

I could have bought a Panasonic GH5s, which is the comparable camera, but it would have cost twice as much as I paid for my BMPCC4K. So that additional AU$1500 that I saved virtually paid all for the accessories that I knew that I wanted and needed. In fact, my initial rig only cost as much as the GH5s body alone. I later spent a bit more buying some 'luxury' accessories because I wanted them, not because I absolutely needed them.

BTW, I also have an E-M1 MkII that now provides Log, which is a pretty decent supplementary camera to the BMPCC4K for when I want to do hand held work. If I wanted, I could get an Olympus 12-100mm lens and have the benefit of IS and IBIS for almost gimbal like video. And all the accessories that I bought for the BMPCC4K are just as functional on the E-M1. And as I have a large set of 4/3 lenses that are fully compatible with the BMPCC4K, there's not much else that I need.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSat Jun 29, 2019 9:45 am

Yeah, I'm an amateur film maker, but use my films to help promote my profession.
I have to split my finances between tools for my professional job, and the tools (video) to promote it.
So I basically have a bare bones system.
I have about five batteries, plus a charger. You can use the included PSU if you are indoors, on a static shot (interview etc).
I mostly use a photographic tripod, plus I have a monopod, and at the end of last year I bought a gimbal.
No cage, no extra screen, no external battery pack.
I don't go handheld (without the gimbal) because I have shakey hands.
Because I'm the film maker and the client I can choose where I need movement, and I can make my shots have movement and interest even when the camera is locked off on a tripod.
Many of the people making 'true cost' videos are not professionals either, and most of the time they pitch their videos as ';the true cost of a basic set up' - which is what I believe I have.
The one guy I argued with is saying a $600 speed booster is essential, when you can pick up some excellent m4/3rds Panasonic and Olympus lenses for $150 - $500 used.
Yes, if you are putting yourself out there as a professional videographer (for corporate, weddings etc), you need to spend quite a bit more than $1200 to have a flexible, usable set up.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSat Jun 29, 2019 9:56 am

Chris Whitten wrote:Yes, if you are putting yourself out there as a professional videographer (for corporate, weddings etc), you need to spend quite a bit more than $1200 to have a flexible, usable set up.


If you're pitching yourself as a professional, you're going to have to not only need the appropriate gear, but backup gear, support gear, possibly assistants and a lot more.

Perhaps these vloggers should instead make videos about the 'true cost' of being a videographer and compare what is required to be a hobbyist, serious amateur, an emerging professional and full time professional. That would start to reflect the true cost of gear ownership.

The higher up the chain you go, more important the type of equipment becomes and it also becomes way more expensive, both for the field and the studio (including computing and editing gear).
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSat Jun 29, 2019 11:59 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I do not go to MacD’s and I do not watch the YouTube cowboys and their miss information — so if it bugs you, don’t watch it, problem solved. :roll:
Cheers



+1

I have gotten over the feeling that I am personally responsible for ensuring that everyone else in the world agrees with what I know to be true. Others have every right to be as wrong as they want to be and I have no power or responsibility to fix that.

As a result, my life is much happier and I have more time for the things I enjoy.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 9:52 am

The thing is, as a non-pro, I will click on anyone's BMPCC4K video just to keep up to speed with how everyone is using it and any new developments I've missed.
There are actually some very good channels - with accurate and killer information.
I hardly ever comment on Youtube videos, but in this one case someone was claiming a $600 speed booster as a 'basic essential', and many in the comments were posting 'wow, thanks for the heads-up'.

I wasn't upset by it.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 9:59 am

Chris Whitten wrote:I hardly ever comment on Youtube videos, but in this one case someone was claiming a $600 speed booster as a 'basic essential', and many in the comments were posting 'wow, thanks for the heads-up'.


Yes, like there is no other way to attach a lens to the BMPCC4K. No thought given to maybe a MFT lens with no adapter, or any lens ever made with an inexpensive pass-through adapter?
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 10:40 am

I use both.
I have Olympus, Voigtlander and SLR magic for m4/3rds, plus simple adapters for Nikon, Leica and C Mount.
I had the OG Pocket specific Metabones Speedbooster, but sold it with the body when I got the Pocket 4K.
I didn't use it the majority of the time with the original Pocket, although I did use it.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 10:45 am

So do I, Olympus MFT, 4/3 and OM, Minolta, Nikon, Pentax and Sigma, plus a couple of really weird ones. I did have Voigtlander and Leica, but sold those well before I got the BMPCC4K. One day I might have to see how my pin hole lens goes, that might provide that 'vintage' look.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 2:55 pm

Australian Image wrote:I find it kind of weird that this has suddenly arisen, almost in unison in recent weeks...


Just fan boys (and probably partly payed ones by competitors).
The Pocket 4K is a really great camera for film makers that can be used without any additional accessories (except for spare batteries). This camera is not for naive vloggers complaining about auto focus and stuff like this.
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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 3:24 pm

It takes all kinds to make a world.

The bottom line is that the machine wants your information.
By engaging with social media of any kind you are feeding the machine.

If you are looking for honesty and decency, get a dog.( make sure it does not have a Twitter account)
Television: Lighting/Cameraman, O.B. Camera Operator, Grip, Lamp Operator
Film: Grip, Lamp Operator
Theater: Lighting Designer, Light board Operator, Stage Electrician, Stage Management
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Australian Image

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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostSun Jun 30, 2019 8:33 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:It takes all kinds to make a world.

The bottom line is that the machine wants your information.
By engaging with social media of any kind you are feeding the machine.

If you are looking for honesty and decency, get a dog.( make sure it does not have a Twitter account)


I have two dogs and no Twitter, Facebook or any other such account. :)
https://australianimage.com.au/
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostMon Jul 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Australian Image wrote:I have two dogs and no Twitter, Facebook or any other such account.


Nice!
Television: Lighting/Cameraman, O.B. Camera Operator, Grip, Lamp Operator
Film: Grip, Lamp Operator
Theater: Lighting Designer, Light board Operator, Stage Electrician, Stage Management
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Australian Image

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  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: BMPCC4K - The Endless Bagging Continues

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 2:51 am

And here's a great video showing the BMPCC4K without thousands spent on accessories to make it useable:

https://australianimage.com.au/

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