SH1

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Boardpig

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SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 12:18 am

Man, I'll probably get shot for this but I was reading about the SH1 and it almost made me think about making the switch from my beloved CC4k....

Of course there is a price issue but if you ignore this (which I know everyone cant), for me, I do a lot of run and gun coupled with anamorphic), it sure looks quite attractive

Could also ditch the 5d for stills.

.. I'm sure I'm wrong of course... right??

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deezid

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 1:43 am

I actually did the switch for many reasons - including video quality (dynamic range, color science, no gamut clipping etc), but not going to further comment on it. :mrgreen:
Download my 55M Advanced Luts for the Pocket 4K and 6K here:
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Frank Engel

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 1:47 am

Hmm... on a quick Google search:

There is the Roland SH-1 which is a synthesizer (keyboard), a Chinese UAV, State Highway 1 in New Zealand...


Ah, there is something - do you mean the Panasonic S1H?

If so, while I don't have much to say about that specific camera, it is mirrorless, so compared to an SLR (from a stills perspective) you should expect worse battery life and an EVF rather than an OVF - there are pros and cons to both.

An EVF works for video (big plus in your case) while the OVF generally will not, but the light levels tend to be not as well matched to your surroundings, so if you see a potential shot at the last minute, the time it takes for your eye to adjust to the brightness of the EVF when you place it to your eye can cause you to miss the shot. It also requires battery power, which the OVF does not. On the other hand, it can provide a richer HUD experience and more accurately depict what the camera is seeing.


For video from a stills camera, the specs do look quite impressive. I wouldn't expect the final quality of the footage to be on par with a genuine cinema camera of similar vintage, but depending on what you are doing, it may be good enough, and if you value things like autofocus, it might offer usability benefits (I would expect most current mirrorless cameras to offer better video autofocus than I would expect from a cinema camera).

On the other hand, you will need to check into audio requirements and the like. Also consider the availability of lenses and adaptors for the relatively new mount they are using - I'm sure the offerings will improve in time...
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Donnell Henry

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 1:58 am

I saw footage from the S1H. In my opinion the pocket 6k color science beats it hands down. Some may go for ease of use through added features like on the S1H, that the BM 6K does not have. And that’s great. While others may go for what they can get out of a camera image wise. I’m on the latter end in that regard. As long as I can get the look I want without jumping thru hoops i’m a happy camper. Thus my preference for the BM 6k. S1H is a very good camera nonetheless. I’m sure it will do well.
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carlomacchiavello

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SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 5:49 am

To be honest, my question is why switch to a
Expansive camera
Expansive kind of lenses
Lower number of lenses choise
Compressed signal
No raw video internal recording
Newer completely tool where I must be a beta tester.

Only to have full frame look (if it exist or is a mith developed from some manager of C xxxx brand?).
No thanks

And you ear a guy that use Panasonic video tool from 1991, I also have Lumix Gh5 and used pocket4k, 6k, Ursa Mini Pro

Sh1 no, if pana develop a newer Eva with fframe sensor could be a thinkable tool, but a full frame with compressed internal video at that price is wrong tool for my point of view.

Better to rent 30 times a red full frame with lenses instead to buy it at that price.

There is a limit where price tool/quality mix must be stopped from vdslr and moved to movie/video camera. Also if you talk run & gun is worst choise for grip, autofocus and many other reasons where I think vdslr fail, everyone talk the opposite had never work with a good videocamera, I use both and run and gun with photo camera without expansive and not comfortable rig is not so comfortable than people think.


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alexthevideoeditor

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 6:59 am

deezid wrote:I actually did the switch for many reasons - including video quality (dynamic range, color science, no gamut clipping etc), but not going to further comment on it. :mrgreen:


Confused on why you'd want the downgrade in IQ?
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lee4ever

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 10:15 am

alexthevideoeditor wrote:
deezid wrote:I actually did the switch for many reasons - including video quality (dynamic range, color science, no gamut clipping etc), but not going to further comment on it. :mrgreen:


Confused on why you'd want the downgrade in IQ?


The switch is by no means a downgrade of IQ. Panasonic S1(H) is a very good camera.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 3:08 pm

lee4ever wrote:
alexthevideoeditor wrote:
deezid wrote:I actually did the switch for many reasons - including video quality (dynamic range, color science, no gamut clipping etc), but not going to further comment on it. :mrgreen:


Confused on why you'd want the downgrade in IQ?


The switch is by no means a downgrade of IQ. Panasonic S1(H) is a very good camera.


H.264 or H.265? That is a massive downgrade in image data, there is absolutely no way that is an improvement. You are throwing away more than half of the image data. Maybe you really don't understand the difference?
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lee4ever

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 3:38 pm

I know what you mean. If I had to make a decision, BMPCC4K or S1H, then I would choose S1H. That's my opinion. BRAW 12 bit is not everything for a good IQ. The BRAW 12Bit of the BMPCC4K is not an unbeatable argument against S1H.
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Que Thompson

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 4:57 pm

The footage looks like a full frame GH5 to me. A definite downgrade. I'd put my Pocket 4K shooting 12:1 against this S1H image wise. Probably much more convenient to shoot with in many ways, I don't doubt that. $4000?! That's an interesting price point, nothing else really exists there. Everything is either slightly more or slightly less. I'm sure Blackmagic could make a a Pocket 8K (shooting BRAW) with the Z-Cam form factor in that price range. Convenience is another animal, I would say that you can't put a price on convenience, but they have. $4000!

If I'm paying $4000 I don't want to look like a kid that hopped off his skateboard and whipped his camera out of his backpack. In today's market, $4000 is too close to accessing pro level equipment to be looking entry-level. A $4000 camera for VIDEO should not look like a DSLR in my opinion. They are marketing it as a professional video tool.... Look at the difference in marketing compared to a 1DX II... Canon 1DX II vs. Panasonic S1H. They are essentially in the same camera.
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John Griffin

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 5:54 pm

I'm about to try the S1. From the V-LOG footage I've downloaded it's not just bigger GH5 (I own a GH5 and P4k) It looks like it has a stop more DR than the P4k and 3 more than the GH5 plus way better low light performance. I've got a big collection of EF glass so it's not a switch and just an addition. BRAW is nice but it's not a miracle.....
Now the S1H also looks very nice but it's a lot more expensive. I've thought long and hard about teh P6k but the sensor just isn't that much bigger than the P4k to make it a big enough difference
Oh and BTW I'm not getting rid if the P4k or GH5
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Que Thompson

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 7:25 pm

John Griffin wrote:I'm about to try the S1. From the V-LOG footage I've downloaded it's not just bigger GH5 (I own a GH5 and P4k) It looks like it has a stop more DR than the P4k and 3 more than the GH5 plus way better low light performance. I've got a big collection of EF glass so it's not a switch and just an addition. BRAW is nice but it's not a miracle.....
Now the S1H also looks very nice but it's a lot more expensive. I've thought long and hard about teh P6k but the sensor just isn't that much bigger than the P4k to make it a big enough difference
Oh and BTW I'm not getting rid if the P4k or GH5


How do you plan to use the cameras differently? I mean, what projects do you plan to use the S1H for? Same for Pocket 4K and GH5...
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deezid

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 9:05 pm

It's not a GH5. GH5 has terrible color science and dynamic range and also is oversharpened.

The S1H on the other hand has the best color science and dynamic range I've seen on a below $5000 camera yet. Sharpening isn't an issue anymore either. Temporal NR is still quite problematic though, but Panasonic is aware of it and working on a fix.

Also Braw on the Pocket 4K isn't that great IQ-wise either, spatial NR and edge enhancing disqualify the Pocket 4K for me. cDNG was fantastic though.

At least the Pocket 6K is way better in that regard, especially when shot at 3:1 or Q0 and downscaled to 4K using "Smoother" scaling in Resolve, also color is finally usable without any crazy tweaks in post, green doesn't look brown anymore and overall brown tint is gone, but reds still clip way too easily.
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Jim Giberti

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 9:20 pm

All I can say personally is that in a recent need to purchase another camera for our kit, and having nothing to do with matching the images - P4K...not a single question. And while budget is always somewhat relevant, not in this case.

As a business decision, I could go pretty much anywhere so it wasn't a cost issue. I just love this camera and how easy it is to shoot (A) and equally love the IQ (B) and equally love producing in Braw (C).
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John Griffin

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Re: SH1

PostSat Oct 19, 2019 3:53 am

Que Thompson wrote:
John Griffin wrote:I'm about to try the S1. From the V-LOG footage I've downloaded it's not just bigger GH5 (I own a GH5 and P4k) It looks like it has a stop more DR than the P4k and 3 more than the GH5 plus way better low light performance. I've got a big collection of EF glass so it's not a switch and just an addition. BRAW is nice but it's not a miracle.....
Now the S1H also looks very nice but it's a lot more expensive. I've thought long and hard about teh P6k but the sensor just isn't that much bigger than the P4k to make it a big enough difference
Oh and BTW I'm not getting rid if the P4k or GH5


How do you plan to use the cameras differently? I mean, what projects do you plan to use the S1H for? Same for Pocket 4K and GH5...

I'm getting the S1 and not the S1H (yet?)
When I want to shoot in low light, have shallow DOF, use my full frame shift lenses - it's just another tool in the box.
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Denny Smith

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Re: SH1

PostMon Oct 21, 2019 5:01 pm

John, did you look at the Nikon Z6? Another full frame lens with tilt=shift lens support. ;)
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John Griffin

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Re: SH1

PostTue Oct 22, 2019 5:41 am

Denny Smith wrote:John, did you look at the Nikon Z6? Another full frame lens with tilt=shift lens support. ;)

Yes but as it's only 8bit internal I quickly ruled it out ;)
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FelikZ

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Re: SH1

PostWed Oct 23, 2019 3:12 pm

I wish it costs same as bmpcc4k and has raw codec with SSD support. But it is not, sorry pan.
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John Griffin

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Re: SH1

PostWed Oct 23, 2019 4:15 pm

FelikZ wrote:I wish it costs same as bmpcc4k and has raw codec with SSD support. But it is not, sorry pan.

I wish the P4k had a bigger internal battery with the run time of the S1, an EVF, IBS and a subsampling sensor but it hasn't, sorry BM.
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Re: SH1

PostThu Oct 24, 2019 7:01 pm

How far can the footage from the S1H be pushed around in post before the quality starts to degrade, vs. the BRAW footage from the P4K?

How cleanly can you pull a chroma key from S1H footage, vs. the BRAW footage from the P4K?


If the S1H is capturing data from a larger resolution then scaling down to produce its output, while that is certainly preferable to line skipping and the like, it will also artificially sharpen the footage. Consider that you can always sharpen in post, but going the other way without blurring the footage is much harder if possible at all, so sharper-looking out-of-camera footage is a disadvantage, not a benefit, as it reduces the versatility of the camera.



---

Larger sensor: typically better high-ISO performance, easier to get a shallower DOF when you want that sort of thing

Smaller sensor: wider range of lenses can be adapted, lower cost of additional gear, easier to get a deeper DOF (useful for FX work and when you don't want someone standing 3 feet behind your talent to be out of focus)


Cinema camera: can push the footage further in post before it starts to degrade, allowing for greater flexibility in grading; easier to adapt to a range of grip equipment, pro audio gear, and other similar needs; typically a much simpler menu structure with less time spent digging to figure out how to make common adjustments needed in cinema work

Video camera: optimized for long takes (capturing events) without overheating; larger batteries with longer lifespans are commonly used internally compared to those on cinema or still cameras; intermediate menu structure

Still/"Hybrid" camera: optimized for capturing single frames and short to mid-length takes; video/cinema capture often compromised to focus on still images and to add lots of bells and whistles that complicate the menu structure in ways that are less significant when shooting stills but can be a pain in a fast-paced cinema environment; rarely have support for pro audio capture; often modern ones have IBIS which is *very* nice when shooting handheld (which in cinema work should be rare but when shooting events can come up - though the short takes that these cameras are optimized for may preclude some kinds of event work); best still image shooting capabilities


These are different tools for the toolbox which have different advantages to offer. It's not a matter of which is better than the other, what counts is which one is a better fit for the task at hand.
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John Paines

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Re: SH1

PostThu Oct 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Frank Engel wrote:If the S1H is capturing data from a larger resolution then scaling down to produce its output, while that is certainly preferable to line skipping and the like, it will also artificially sharpen the footage.


Since when? The quality of in-camera downsampling will vary, but I've never heard this claim before. What's the source of it?
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Que Thompson

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Re: SH1

PostThu Oct 24, 2019 9:12 pm

Que Thompson wrote: Look at the difference in marketing compared to a 1DX II... Canon 1DX II vs. Panasonic S1H. They are essentially in the same camera.


Even the new Canon 1DX III, with 4K Raw Internal recording and estimated price around $6000, is not marketed as a professional video tool.
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Frank Engel

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 1:37 am

John Paines wrote:
Frank Engel wrote:If the S1H is capturing data from a larger resolution then scaling down to produce its output, while that is certainly preferable to line skipping and the like, it will also artificially sharpen the footage.


Since when? The quality of in-camera downsampling will vary, but I've never heard this claim before. What's the source of it?



Interesting... it has been my understanding for a while now that this is simply the nature of how downscaling effects a raster image, but upon digging further, it seems I had come across some poorly-explained information, and looking more carefully myself I don't see it happening either. It definitely has an effect which is not particularly great, which can be somewhat alleviated depending on how it is handled, but it is not actually a sharpening effect.

I stand corrected on that point, but my other points remain.

Que Thompson wrote:Even the new Canon 1DX III, with 4K Raw Internal recording and estimated price around $6000, is not marketed as a professional video tool.


No, it is marketed as a professional still image camera, and that I'm sure it is.


Please know that I am not trying to downplay the value of these cameras for cinema work, simply pointing out that for all of the advantages they do in fact offer in some areas, there are also some rather severe limitations in others - it is definitely a trade-off.
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John Paines

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 2:09 am

Frank Engel wrote:[It [downsampling] definitely has an effect which is not particularly great, which can be somewhat alleviated depending on how it is handled, but it is not actually a sharpening effect.


You have this backwards. Downsampling has a near-miraculous ability to improve image quality. It reduces noise, improves DR and may actually, depending on the content, effectively increase bits and chroma information. If the choice is between shooting at a native resolution or downsampling to that resolution, you really do want to downsample.
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Uli Plank

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 8:40 am

That's why we have a Pocket 6K now, it's all about downsampling, reframing or stabilization is secondary.

No Bayer pattern sensor can resolve its number of photocells in pixels, you need oversampling of at least 20% or rather more. Actually, even a 3-chip array can't resolve it's number of pixels if filtered properly against aliasing.

IMHO, using 6K footage in Resolve in a 4K or UHD timeline is yielding excellent resolution (instead of fake detail) and even reducing noise to some degree.
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Frank Engel

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 1:37 pm

John Paines wrote:
Frank Engel wrote:[It [downsampling] definitely has an effect which is not particularly great, which can be somewhat alleviated depending on how it is handled, but it is not actually a sharpening effect.


You have this backwards. Downsampling has a near-miraculous ability to improve image quality. It reduces noise, improves DR and may actually, depending on the content, effectively increase bits and chroma information. If the choice is between shooting at a native resolution or downsampling to that resolution, you really do want to downsample.


No. Downsampling by definition is throwing away information, and you can't expect to get better quality when you have less information than what you started with. That much should hopefully be obvious.

If your images are looking better after a downsample it is because of filtering that is being applied on the image, possibly without your knowledge by the camera.

If you search around a bit, you can find entire academic papers written on various scaling techniques used to minimize the perceived quality loss after reducing the size of an image.

https://people.inf.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fil ... caling.pdf

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutor ... or-web.htm

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4204912


I do agree that shooting large and shrinking *can* be preferable to shooting immediately at the target size, for numerous reasons, though I would argue that the downscaling would be best done in post rather than in-camera when that is possible (obviously not true for *live* applications, but I think we are mostly talking about cinema here?).

Shooting large and staying large is even better in most cases, but not always practical, often due to technical or budgetary constraints.
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John Paines

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 2:08 pm

If you don't believe in the virtues of downsampling, ask yourself why filmmakers all over the world are shooting at much higher than their delivery resolutions. It's not just to reframe or stabilize shots.

That aside, no one is claiming that a 4K image downsampled from 6K has as much information as the 6K original. The only useful comparison is between a downsampled 6K image and a natively shot 4K image. And all else being equal, the downsampled image will win.

Whether you downsample in camera or post is a different issue. Doing it in an application will usually be preferable, but nobody said otherwise.

Finally, a down-sampled image may actually look subjectively better than the original. Your eyes aren't missing the discarded information, but they may notice the improvements, like less noise and reduced artifacts.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 2:50 pm

John Paines wrote:If you don't believe in the virtues of downsampling, ask yourself why filmmakers all over the world are shooting at much higher than their delivery resolutions. It's not just to reframe or stabilize shots.


As yourself why some of the best in the world shoot 2K for 4K delivery...
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John Griffin

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 3:05 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
John Paines wrote:If you don't believe in the virtues of downsampling, ask yourself why filmmakers all over the world are shooting at much higher than their delivery resolutions. It's not just to reframe or stabilize shots.


As yourself why some of the best in the world shoot 2K for 4K delivery...

Care to enlighten us?
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deezid

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 10:55 pm

Frank Engel wrote:
Interesting... it has been my understanding for a while now that this is simply the nature of how downscaling effects a raster image, but upon digging further, it seems I had come across some poorly-explained information, and looking more carefully myself I don't see it happening either. It definitely has an effect which is not particularly great, which can be somewhat alleviated depending on how it is handled, but it is not actually a sharpening effect.

I stand corrected on that point, but my other points remain.


And you're right.
The 6K doesn't show any signs of sharpening, no halos at all. When the standard downscaler (sharper) in Resolve is used the footage basically looks similar to the interal 4K footage - too videoish for my taste. When Resolve is set to smoother, the image looks way more organic. Really wish Panasonic would opt for a bicubic instead of spline/lancos downscaler for their 4K footage.
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deezid

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Re: SH1

PostFri Oct 25, 2019 10:58 pm

Uli Plank wrote:IMHO, using 6K footage in Resolve in a 4K or UHD timeline is yielding excellent resolution (instead of fake detail) and even reducing noise to some degree.


With the scaler set to smoother I agree. The standard option sharper ends up in making the footage look oversharpened.
Download my 55M Advanced Luts for the Pocket 4K and 6K here:
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Uli Plank

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Re: SH1

PostSat Oct 26, 2019 7:20 am

At least we have the creative choice.
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rick.lang

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Re: SH1

PostSat Oct 26, 2019 12:09 pm

Just saw a tweet saying S1H is the first mirrorless Camera to be Netflix approved.


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