Page 1 of 1

BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:50 pm
by robert Hart
This is not a gutsache about BM cameras and any IR issue there may or may not be. It is an observation about a considerable amount of content I have seen in more recent years, originated on different camera systems which have that same signature drought-affected beery/green colouration of vegetation.

Has the world's greenery been beset by climate change? Is my red-green partial colour-blindness getting any worse? Is it a case of people shooting constrained-budget shows no longer caring to bung an extra IR filter on the front when using strong ND filters?

I am just curious. Any advice is welcome.

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:35 pm
by Que Thompson
robert Hart wrote:This is not a gutsache about BM cameras and any IR issue there may or may not be. It is an observation about a considerable amount of content I have seen in more recent years, originated on different camera systems which have that same signature drought-affected beery/green colouration of vegetation.

Has the world's greenery been beset by climate change? Is my red-green partial colour-blindness getting any worse? Is it a case of people shooting constrained-budget shows no longer caring to bung an extra IR filter on the front when using strong ND filters?

I am just curious. Any advice is welcome.


It's my understanding that greens are hard to get right by cameras. I think Sony handles it the best.

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:28 pm
by Robert Niessner
You can use my PCC4K LUT LBK-Neutral-Hi-DeSat v10 to get nice greens in vegetation shots.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97623
I have tuned its color response for that.

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:06 pm
by Joenkeck
When using Braw in resolve if you change the color space from Blackmagic Design to rec. 709 you’ll find the colors look almost just like Sony, including the greens. It comes from BlackMagic’s color science as far as I can tell


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:26 pm
by Dmitry Shijan
Lack of IR filter, BM cameras specific sensors produce less saturated (brownish) greens. BM color science also produce way less saturated greens than Canon, RED or Arri.
Proper Wide Gamut Workflow + IR filter + ColorChecker correction brings back green colors. Also as a final touch you can add LUTs based on Velvia film stocks. They produce extremely saturated greens.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:33 pm
by Dune00z
I think everybody else has already nailed it.

When I do a rec709 conversion the greens look just as vibrant and non-brownish as any camera I have used.

If you use luts not attuned to the camera color science without correcting (lots of people do this) or luts that keep the greens brownish, then they will be brownish.

You can transform the colorspace into other colorspaces to throw on a lut and the greens will lose the brown look... such as transforming to arri alexa and throwing the Arri 1d lut on the end of the pipe.

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:03 pm
by robert Hart
If the brown-green cure is available in post as I thought it likely was, I just wonder why the work is not being done instead of movies being turned loose before being properly cooked in post production.

My other grizzle is the quality of the sound work. I have coined the term "armpit dialogue" because that's what it sounds like as if someone delivered their lines with their head under their wing.

Once upon a time, actors took care with their diction to be sure the wordstuff was failthfully rendered. The dialogue recording tech of the older times was fairly good but had its limitations. Maybe they looped it all? Who is to know?

On restored prints of two ancients recently broadcast free-to-air here, "The Towering Inferno" and "Big Country", I had no trouble with the dialogue so I am not that deaf. So too was the dialogue work on "Slumdog Millionaire".

I personally know of one instance in which a less than ideal colour-grade and sound mix was driven by a limited available budget, a case of let it go as as it was or not at all. Some of the crew involved felt the end-product did not truly reflect the quality of their craft.

I have since seen quite a bit of streamed and theatrical cinema content which has a similar look. I doubt it is a style choice. Has an attitude become entrenched, caused by a financially-driven race to the bottom to surfeit the growing appetite of streamed media I wonder.

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:31 pm
by Eugenia Loli
proper Wide Gamut Workflow + IR filter...


Can you elaborate on this please? You're not being specific.
What's the "proper" wide gamut workflow? Others here say rec709, you say wide. Which one is it?

And when you say IR filter, do you mean an IR CUT filter?

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:41 pm
by Dmitry Shijan
Yes, i mean IR CUT filter

Greens became greener when you use YRGB (non color managed) in project settings with RAW footage from Blackmagic cameras. If you switch project settings to Color Managed, RAW footage processed with very basic input profile with less saturated greens. If you shoot ProRes green colors are ok (same as RAW with YRGB non color managed)

Here is a link to my workflow viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p537852

ColorChecker adjusts green colors really well. Resolve Color Match tool even have two options with slightly different ColorChecker correction look and saturation strength (Normal and Legacy)

Here is example from simple ACES project with ColorChecker correction:

Image
Image

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:26 pm
by Howard Roll
It’s fairly common among camera manufacturers to have desaturated greens and strong reds. I think they do it because it is more flattering for skin tones out of the box, gives them more warmth than exists naturally. Even with broadcast cameras I’ve never seen a flat matrix response, there is in my experience always a red/green bias.

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:43 am
by Dune00z
Eugenia Loli wrote:
proper Wide Gamut Workflow + IR filter...


Can you elaborate on this please? You're not being specific.
What's the "proper" wide gamut workflow? Others here say rec709, you say wide. Which one is it?

And when you say IR filter, do you mean an IR CUT filter?


You can convert to rec 709 and also work in wide gamut... You don't have to pick one or the other...

Re: BROWN GREENS IN DIGITAL MOTION IMAGES.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:55 pm
by carlomacchiavello
Resolve space had input / timeline/ output color space. If you keep timeline wide color space instead to work in rec709 often you can work smooth and better to recover some dectails on upper and lower light.
If timeline space would not important you cannot setup different from output


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk