Noise at ISO 1250

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TigerLillyProductions

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Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:05 am

Si I'm trying to figure out why I would be getting noise in my images shooting at ISO 1250.

Attached you'll see an image of the scene just for reference. It has no grade on and was shot in B-Raw 12:1. There's also the waveform added for reference.

As far as my research and knowledge goes ISO 1250 is the second Native ISO and should show very little to no noise. You can't tell from the images but once I add a LUT, the noise shows a lot over the entire image and especially in the shadows.

Or am I understanding this wrong? How do you film a low-light scene without getting noise? Or do you always light the scene very well and then edit it to look like night time in post?

PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 10:20 am

TigerLillyProductions wrote:Si I'm trying to figure out why I would be getting noise in my images shooting at ISO 1250.

Attached you'll see an image of the scene just for reference. It has no grade on and was shot in B-Raw 12:1. There's also the waveform added for reference.

As far as my research and knowledge goes ISO 1250 is the second Native ISO and should show very little to no noise. You can't tell from the images but once I add a LUT, the noise shows a lot over the entire image and especially in the shadows.

Or am I understanding this wrong? How do you film a low-light scene without getting noise? Or do you always light the scene very well and then edit it to look like night time in post?

PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND.


Hi and welcome to the forum Heleen!

While ISO 3200 is the second native ISO (besides ISO 400) which does show less noise than ISO 1000 of the first stage, it is a common misconception that this will show little noise - even at ISO 1250.
The reason of this misconception is, that most camera manufacturers are implementing heavy post noise reduction into their cameras - like Sony does with their Alpha series. Initially this makes high ISO shots look surprisingly clean but upon closer inspection you will see this comes at the cost of the loss of image texture details. Everything tends to look like smooth plastic.

Blackmagic has another approach to this and does no (cameras before BRAW) or very little noise reduction in camera (cameras with BRAW) and therefor gives you the option to do that later in post with a high quality tool which does way outperform current in-camera solutions.

Another misconception is to film planned low-light scenes in low-light. That is not the way to do it.
The better approach - and like most high-end film productions do it - is to light the set quite bright, but take care of the relative light ratios and then use lower ISO settings and/or lower the brightness in post. That way you will get super clean shadows and better control of the end result.

BTW, if you want others here to evaluate your shots, please post image samples in native resolution or even better post short original source clips to download.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 11:47 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
The reason of this misconception is, that most camera manufacturers are implementing heavy post noise reduction into their cameras - like Sony does with their Alpha series. Initially this makes high ISO shots look surprisingly clean but upon closer inspection you will see this comes at the cost of the loss of image texture details. Everything tends to look like smooth plastic.

Blackmagic has another approach to this and does no (cameras before BRAW) or very little noise reduction in camera (cameras with BRAW) and therefor gives you the option to do that later in post with a high quality tool which does way outperform current in-camera solutions.


Sorry but i think that Blackmagic can not to make a camera with a good clean image at high ISO like Sony. They just don't own this noise reduction in camera technology and this is the reason why they offer free Davinci Resolve to solve their lack internal noise reduction.
Look at this 2 links and tell me if i wrong.

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Robert Niessner

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 12:30 pm

Michael Moore wrote:Sorry but i think that Blackmagic can not to make a camera with a good clean image at high ISO like Sony. They just don't own this noise reduction in camera technology and this is the reason why they offer free Davinci Resolve to solve their lack internal noise reduction.
Look at this 2 links and tell me if i wrong.


I am not sure what exactly you want to tell me with those two videos?
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Michael Moore

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:13 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
I am not sure what exactly you want to tell me with those two videos?


I want to compare 2 cinema cameras, in same price range, with 2 different results in high ISO range. If you shooting with UMP G2 at ISO 3200 and use in post production a software denoise (DaVinci Resolve) you get a usable image like FS5 Mark II at 12800 ISO with in camera noise reduction? Only i wish is a more clean image at high ISO on Blackmagic cameras.
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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:19 pm

Michael Moore wrote:If you shooting with UMP G2 at ISO 3200 and use in post production a software denoise (DaVinci Resolve) you get a usable image like FS5 Mark II at 12800 ISO with in camera noise reduction? Only i wish is a more clean image at high ISO on Blackmagic cameras.


Robert explained above that on close inspection you can see that in-camera noise reduction is inferior to noise reduction in post.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:34 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:Robert explained above that on close inspection you can see that in-camera noise reduction is inferior to noise reduction in post.


Please help me! How i can shoot at 10 bit with UMP G2 at 3200 ISO and can denoise the picture in post production with DaVinci Resove and get a clean and superior to Sony FS5 / FS7?
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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 2:03 pm

Michael Moore wrote:
Brad Hurley wrote:Robert explained above that on close inspection you can see that in-camera noise reduction is inferior to noise reduction in post.


Please help me! How i can shoot at 10 bit with UMP G2 at 3200 ISO and can denoise the picture in post production with DaVinci Resove and get a clean and superior to Sony FS5 / FS7?


By buying an FS5/FS7... Why would you want one camera do what an other camera does? Isn’t that what the other camera is for?
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Michael Moore

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 3:06 pm

youlikeny wrote:
By buying an FS5/FS7... Why would you want one camera do what an other camera does? Isn’t that what the other camera is for?


Because i love Blackmagic color science. Because i have already a ursa mini 4K, BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM Vlock battery plate and i dont want to trow in the bin this accesories. Because i belive in Blackmagic "revolution", i like that Blackmagic offer 10/12 bit, RAW, at decent price. All i want is a little moore clean image in low light.Asking too much?
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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 3:14 pm

Get Neatvideo.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 5:53 pm

Michael Moore wrote:Sorry but i think that Blackmagic can not to make a camera with a good clean image at high ISO like Sony. They just don't own this noise reduction in camera technology and this is the reason why they offer free Davinci Resolve to solve their lack internal noise reduction.
Look at this 2 links and tell me if i wrong.


You're wrong. This videos does not tell me anything.
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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 5:57 pm

Michael Moore wrote:
youlikeny wrote:
By buying an FS5/FS7... Why would you want one camera do what an other camera does? Isn’t that what the other camera is for?


Because i love Blackmagic color science. Because i have already a ursa mini 4K, BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM Vlock battery plate and i dont want to trow in the bin this accesories. Because i belive in Blackmagic "revolution", i like that Blackmagic offer 10/12 bit, RAW, at decent price. All i want is a little moore clean image in low light.Asking too much?


Then you have the wrong expectations. The FS5/FS7 are really for ENG use while the BMD cameras are for narrative filmmaking. So if you use the BMD camera, light your scenes. For low light, use faster lens, shoot at native ISO, etc.

See this post as well. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=101735
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javier forza

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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:18 am

Hi Helen, can you specify the values of the shot? I mean, aperture, shutter... Lense used. Even, I can't find where is the focus. Appear an image that need an ISO 3200 to downgrade the value in post at around 1250.
In that way, the shadows and mid tones can have very low noise and great contrast and blacks.
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Re: Noise at ISO 1250

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:08 pm

Tiger Lily, I wish you had posted two weeks earlier. I’m also concerned about noise and tested by BMPCC4K thoroughly after receiving it at the end of June. I certainly compared the ISO 400 and ISO 3200 ranges for noise and tonality. I could see that the higher ISO range did have more noise, but likely it would be manageable in post. I had planned to use ISO 3200 band when I recorded a musical theatre production at the end of October.

At the last moment I decided I need increased depth of field since this was a large production with lead characters moving all over the stage. And I wanted clean results so I went with ISO 400 at T5.6 and shutter angle 180 degrees. On the URSA Mini 4.6, I would have been using ISO 800 at T4/T2.8 and shutter angle 360 degrees. So I was really pushing the histogram well into the lower quadrant. But the image looked good in the theatre so I gambled.

Initially in post things looked quite good on the characters, but then I started noticing problems in the low lit areas that abound like the backdrops and reflections off the black floor. They were very noisy. Even after applying heavy noise reduction (that beautifully fixed the noisy reflections) the low lit areas often had artifacts. And sometimes the faces of the leads had artifacts.

It wasn’t always my ‘fault’ as I have no control over the lighting which had large swings in levels and I can see the artifacts completely disappear in the same scene as the lighting director increased the lights.

But it is my ‘fault’ because I know what a challenge recording with this theatre crew can be. And my guess how to minimize occasional blown highlights was right on for the BMPCC4K as they weren’t an issue this time. But I didn’t place enough importance on the light levels of the lower mids and shadows. My bad.

For my next performance in December, I’m going to shoot with T4/T2.8 and 360 degrees shutter angle and feed the sensor more light. Of course I’ll have to be more careful about focus a land in post I know I’ll have some very bright highlights. But t better the occasional momentary clip due to bright saturated LEDs than these ugly artifacts!

The first exposure lesson we learned on the BMCC half a dozen years ago is really still true: feed the sensor! And the best way to judge if the sensor is well fed is looking at the histogram frequently and the false colour occasionally. Keep light levels at least in the second quadrant or middle of the histogram generally depending on the scene. And try to avoid blue false colour and ideally have only dark grey, green, medium grey, pink, and light grey with occasional highlights in yellow.

I didn’t follow my own guidelines and had too much blue in the frame last month which is where the noise became so strong. Hopefully in December I only have dark grey through light grey. I also expect I’ll use both cameras so the URSA Mini 4.6K increased latitude will help with those hot highlights.
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