Slow motion shooting.

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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Madlax

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Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 9:54 am

Hi, I came across this company today, and to be honest I'm just entering video production. My desired end results will include something like slow motion motocross, as well as panoramic panning and things of that sort. Will any of these cameras suit my needs? I read different opinions on post-production slow motion effects, saying they leave much to be desired. If I'm to spend money on one of these cameras, am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,

Madlax
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Richard Oakes

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 10:09 am

Madlax wrote:Hi, I came across this company today, and to be honest I'm just entering video production. My desired end results will include something like slow motion motocross, as well as panoramic panning and things of that sort. Will any of these cameras suit my needs? I read different opinions on post-production slow motion effects, saying they leave much to be desired. If I'm to spend money on one of these cameras, am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,

Madlax


Yes these cameras do not do slow motion, full stop. They focus on getting the best cinematic quality for the cheapest price. if you want this quality and slow motion they you need to buy at least a RED scarlet which will set you back 10 times the price. If you need slow motion then these are not the cameras for you!
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Uli Plank

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 1:17 pm

Even the RED Scarlet can't do serious slo-mo, you'll need the Epic.

Or go Sony FS700 …
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 1:20 pm

You might should get your feet wet with a GoPro before you buy that Epic. ;)
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GeraldBaria

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 1:37 pm

Just rent a Sony F5 or F55.
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Thor Knudsen

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 2:12 pm

... I'm just entering video production.


quobetah wrote:Just rent a Sony F5 or F55.


Yeeesssss...
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Richard Oakes

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 2:17 pm

mhood wrote:You might should get your feet wet with a GoPro before you buy that Epic. ;)


Except go pros footage is disgusting! Unusable for most applications!basically a glorified webcam!
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 2:21 pm

Darkfable wrote:
mhood wrote:You might should get your feet wet with a GoPro before you buy that Epic. ;)


Except go pros footage is disgusting! Unusable for most applications!basically a glorified webcam!


He's just entering video production and is unaware that the BM cameras do not offer HFR recording. Renting an F5 isn't likely to help him very much unless he rents a cam op as well.
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metaljesus

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 2:50 pm

Hi Madlax. Unfortunately slow motion is considered a fairly specialist tool and so a pretty expensive requirement for your first camera. The cheapest 'pro' camera with decent slow motion is the FS700.

As you're just starting out you might want to consider starting with a cheaper DSLR like a Canon t4i to see if video production is really something you want to be doing. Many DSLRs have 60fps slow motion at 720p.

Hope that helps!
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adamroberts

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 3:02 pm

Another affordable option is the Sony NEX5. It does 60p (or 50p in PAL countries) at full 1080p.

That would give you decent half speed slowmo on a budget.
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Rudy Satria

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 3:42 pm

at the first time i decide to get BMCC i realize that this camera has several minuses including no HFR recording. After i understood that BMCC was born for those who focus on the image quality at the lowest price. You can not buy all features at that price, means there some features should be sacrificed.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 5:58 pm

Madlax wrote:Hi, I came across this company today, and to be honest I'm just entering video production. My desired end results will include something like slow motion motocross, as well as panoramic panning and things of that sort. Will any of these cameras suit my needs? I read different opinions on post-production slow motion effects, saying they leave much to be desired. If I'm to spend money on one of these cameras, am I looking in the wrong place? Thanks, Madlax


As others have said, BMD's cameras don't record frame rates higher than 30 fps.

Quite a few BMCC users shoot @ 30 fps and slow it down to 24 or 25 fps in their editing timeline. Obviously, this is not an extreme slow-motion effect, but it is a form of slow(er) motion, and can look quite pleasing.

Here's an excellent example by Andrew Julian (there are many others online):


-
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Madlax

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 10:24 pm

Alright, thank you all for your help. Essentially this is the desired effect
, I hope links are allowed here since its relevant to the topic at hand.

I'm trying to figure out if the guy there used post-production slow motion, or if that was shot with some specialized camera.

If I have to go with a 7000$ + camera, I'd obviously have to give up on slow motion for now and just stick with nice quality images. That would be more important between the two.

Someone mentioned the NEX-5 here, wouldn't that be a lower quality camera(for image quality) than even the black magic pocket?

Focusing for a bit on the pocket CC, how would you rate it against the NEX-6? Lower price, and offers 60p....but what about image quality?

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Marcel Beck

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 11:38 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:As others have said, BMD's cameras don't record frame rates higher than 30 fps.


Won't the 4k camera shoot 50i? Would that be enough to slow down to 24?
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metaljesus

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 23, 2013 11:46 pm

Madlax wrote:Someone mentioned the NEX-5 here, wouldn't that be a lower quality camera(for image quality) than even the black magic pocket?


If the NEX-5 was as good as the Blackmagic why would anyone buy the Blackmagic? It's not as good an image but for a first camera it's not too shabby at all, plus it's about the only budget option for slow mo.

The image from the FS700 at $7000 isn't nearly as good as Blackmagic's either. You've just got to weigh up what features/price/image you want and need.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostWed Jul 24, 2013 12:26 am

Marcel Beck wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:As others have said, BMD's cameras don't record frame rates higher than 30 fps.


Won't the 4k camera shoot 50i? Would that be enough to slow down to 24?


Yes, according to the specs: 1920 x 1080i50 and 1920 x 1080i59.94.

You could slow that down to 24 or 25 fps, but not at 4K resolution.

-
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adamroberts

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostWed Jul 24, 2013 6:42 am

Madlax wrote:Alright, thank you all for your help. Essentially this is the desired effect...

I'm trying to figure out if the guy there used post-production slow motion, or if that was shot with some specialized camera.


Considering those shots have lots of moving detail and no real smearing I'd say its probably in camera slowmo. Maybe 120fps. RED Epic maybe??


Madlax wrote:Someone mentioned the NEX-5 here, wouldn't that be a lower quality camera(for image quality) than even the black magic pocket?

Well the NEX5 shoots in an 8bit 420 compressed codec. The same as all of the NEX range including the FS700. The BMPCC shoots in 10bit 422 ProRes or 12bit RAW. So the images of the BMPCC are less compressed, more colour info and have more dynamic range. But to get the camera price down BM have compromised on high frame rates. Win some, loose some.

Madlax wrote:Focusing for a bit on the pocket CC, how would you rate it against the NEX-6? Lower price, and offers 60p....but what about image quality?


As above. The image quality of the NEX-6 in video mode it the same as the NEX-5 and similar to the FS700 ( tho the FS700 has more processing power and has the benefit of Cinegamma).

It's 8bit 420 compressed. Less colour info than the BMPCC.

Horses for courses as they say...
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Hector Diaz

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostWed Jul 24, 2013 11:26 am

If you're going to do some high speed shooting and are considering the RED Epic, why limit yourself to those frame rates when you can rent a high speed camera for around the same daily rate? Rent a Phantom Miro!
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Dustin Svehlak

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostWed Jul 24, 2013 1:27 pm

Darkfable wrote:
Except go pros footage is disgusting! Unusable for most applications!basically a glorified webcam!


Tell that to Terrence Malick :)
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Marcel Beck

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSat Jul 27, 2013 1:48 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
Marcel Beck wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:As others have said, BMD's cameras don't record frame rates higher than 30 fps.


Won't the 4k camera shoot 50i? Would that be enough to slow down to 24?


Yes, according to the specs: 1920 x 1080i50 and 1920 x 1080i59.94.

You could slow that down to 24 or 25 fps, but not at 4K resolution.

-


Thats what I thought, still good enough imo
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Robert RED

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 2:55 pm

A Good and cheap SLOMOTION Camera?

JVC GC-PX100BEU 100 - 500 fps

A very good SloMo camcorder and a very nice price.

Chears

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Last edited by Robert RED on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thor Knudsen

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 4:27 pm

Robert RED wrote:A Good and cheap SLOMOTION Camera?

JVC GC-PX100BEU 100 - 500 fps in Full HD

A very good SloMo camcorder and a very nice price.

Chears

- RED -


As far as I can tell you're wrong:

Video Recording Modes: MOV (1920x1080/50p 35Mbps), MP4 (1920x1080/50p 36Mbps / 1280x720/50p 16Mbps), iFrame (1280x720/25p 36Mbps), AVCHD Progressive (1920x1080/50p 28Mbps), AVCHD (1920x1080/50i 17Mbps/5Mbps), MP4 [High Speed] (100/200/250fps: 640x360 / 400/500fps: 320x176)

From: http://www.jvc.co.uk/product.php?id=GC- ... 0191&lg=en
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 4:44 pm

Yes, the JVC only does super low res slow motion like all affordable "slow motion" capable camcorders.

With Robert it's more about fast replies than facts ;)
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Thor Knudsen

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 4:49 pm

Ah well. :)
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 4:51 pm

How is my GoPro suggestion holding up? :D
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 5:06 pm

If you don't have a Friend or Associate with a RED Epic, you can get one for the day and shoot all your slow motion scenes for around $300 to $500 per day rate.

Example: Here is a DP with full Epic package and his rates are negotiable

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/fo ... 02776.html

Why would you not use the Epic for slow motion at these prices?
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Robert RED

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 5:51 pm

To err is human ;0)

Take Care

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Robert RED

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 6:17 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:Yes, the JVC only does super low res slow motion like all affordable "slow motion" capable camcorders.

With Robert it's more about fast replies than facts ;)


Or the Casio EX-ZR200 1000fps!!!

Sir. Soeren Müller

Under 1K$ Camera, i can only give fast responses :0)
For "facts" you need a bigger Purses ;0)

I have only made an alternative proposal to (RED/Phantom Camera 2,500 FPS - PHANTOM FLEX
1,000 FPS - PHANTOM HD GOLD) .
I was wrong in saying "FULL HD" (uuuuuhhhh)

But i want to make you happy
Read and watch here: http://gizmodo.com/5863354/how-to-shoot ... fps-budget

A very cheap solution.

Stay Tuned & Take Care

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Robert RED

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 7:02 pm

Twixtor example:
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 7:13 pm

I have heard of folks taking a 1080i 60i recording, simply dropping it into a 29.97p CS6 timeline and slowing it down 50% for acceptable results. Maybe the 4K would work for you?
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 8:51 pm

I've read now a number of times about 1080@60i shooting - does the Production Cam really do this? As far as i know it only records 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30 fps, although its output can be switched to 60i (which essentially transfers the progressive image in two passes).

For 60i to 30p slow motion recordings the cam would need to actually read 60 fields per second from the sensor, which could then be interpolated to 60 full frames. But as i understand it, the system is limited to reading the sensor at 30 fps max.
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rick.lang

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 9:45 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:I've read now a number of times about 1080@60i shooting - does the Production Cam really do this? As far as i know it only records 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30 fps, although its output can be switched to 60i (which essentially transfers the progressive image in two passes).

For 60i to 30p slow motion recordings the cam would need to actually read 60 fields per second from the sensor, which could then be interpolated to 60 full frames. But as i understand it, the system is limited to reading the sensor at 30 fps max.


I don't know what BMD is doing to output at 60i, but those 60 fields per second are only reading half the lines remember whereas as the 30p frames per second read all lines of resolution. Same total data.

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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 10:07 pm

This is off the tech specs:

Frame Rates

3840 x 2160p23.98,
3840 x 2160p24,
3840 x 2160p25,
3840 x 2160p29.97,
3840 x 2160p30,
1920 x 1080p23.98,
1920 x 1080p24,
1920 x 1080p25,
1920 x 1080p29.97,
1920 x 1080p30,
1920 x 1080i50,
1920 x 1080i59.94.


It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either but it is described as being better slo mo than 720p at 60 fps.
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 10:23 pm

mhood wrote:It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either but it is described as being better slo mo than 720p at 60 fps.

Don't know if it is better, but at least adequate. I've been doing 60i to 60p conversion (and occasional slow motion by slowing down to 24p) with consumer grade hardware, before the first true 60p cameras were available - it's really not that bad. The trick is: our eyes either see motion or detail, yet not both at the same time. In 60i shots you have high spatial resolution where the image is static (because it doesn't matter if every odd line is recorded 1/60 s later when it doesn't move anyway), and high temporal resolution where the image is moving (you won't notice the lower resolution then).

Still i'm not convinced the camera actually reads the sensor 60i interlaced. What exactly does the quoted table list? Is it recording resolutions, or output options? If the sensor could be read 60 times a second, the same image pipeline that does 4k@30p should be easily capable of 2k@60p (which is only half as much data than 4k@30p) - so why stop at 1080@60i? I still think it's just 30p split into fields to work with external devices that expect 60i footage (some field monitors and view finders are limited this way).
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adamroberts

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 10:33 pm

It'll only be good for slowmo if its true 60i. As in reading off the sensor in 2 passes per frame. If it's 30p that is then split and put in a 60i wrapper (PsF) then it'll be no different to slowing down 30p footage.

This is how the 60i output on the BMCC is produced. It's progressive segmented frames rather than true interlaced: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress ... nted_frame
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostSun Jul 28, 2013 10:39 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:Still i'm not convinced the camera actually reads the sensor 60i interlaced. What exactly does the quoted table list? Is it recording resolutions, or output options?


Camera Features
Effective Sensor Size

21.12mm x 11.88mm (Super 35).
Effective Resolution

3840 x 2160
Shooting Resolutions

3840 x 2160, 1920x1080.
Frame Rates

3840 x 2160p23.98,
3840 x 2160p24,
3840 x 2160p25,
3840 x 2160p29.97,
3840 x 2160p30,
1920 x 1080p23.98,
1920 x 1080p24,
1920 x 1080p25,
1920 x 1080p29.97,
1920 x 1080p30,
1920 x 1080i50,
1920 x 1080i59.94.


They're talking about camera features. I don't think they're describing output...that's in another section of the tech specs.
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rick.lang

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostMon Jul 29, 2013 5:46 am

mhood wrote:
Mac Jaeger wrote:Still i'm not convinced the camera actually reads the sensor 60i interlaced. What exactly does the quoted table list? Is it recording resolutions, or output options?


Camera Features
Effective Sensor Size

21.12mm x 11.88mm (Super 35).
Effective Resolution

3840 x 2160
Shooting Resolutions

3840 x 2160, 1920x1080.
Frame Rates

3840 x 2160p23.98,
3840 x 2160p24,
3840 x 2160p25,
3840 x 2160p29.97,
3840 x 2160p30,
1920 x 1080p23.98,
1920 x 1080p24,
1920 x 1080p25,
1920 x 1080p29.97,
1920 x 1080p30,
1920 x 1080i50,
1920 x 1080i59.94.


They're talking about camera features. I don't think they're describing output...that's in another section of the tech specs.


I think Marc has a good point, this is a 'production' video camera outputting live video at 1080i50/59.94 for TV broadcast, not psf. Sounds like something that someone will be testing as soon as they can get their hands on the BMPC4K, and show us the resulting slow motion effect at 24/25fps for images that are generally fairly static and more images with significant motion.

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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostMon Jul 29, 2013 3:35 pm

Thank you Marc for being so patient with me :-)

I guess we'll have to see what it really does, once it manifested itself outside of their labs...
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostMon Jul 29, 2013 4:09 pm

NP, wouldn't it be wonderful if this procedure made for some decent 1080p slo mo? I'm still holding out hope that they'll surprise us all with some new feature in Resolve 11. I need a reason to tackle that steep learning curve. ;)
Last edited by bhook on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostMon Jul 29, 2013 4:09 pm

The GH3 will give you a nice 1080 60p. but still more expensive than the bmpcc.
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostMon Jul 29, 2013 8:06 pm

mhood wrote:NP, wouldn't it be wonderful if this procedure made for some decent 1080p slo mo?

It surely would - the 60 -> 24 decimation is good for beautiful dramatic slow motion shots that can be the key to some of your scenes. And it's also a good base to create even slower motion by motion analysed intraframe computing a la twixtor. That's why i hope to be wrong ;-)
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostTue Jul 30, 2013 12:25 am

I wouldnt buy in this climate if i was just getting started, too many good choices.

May i suggest running an ad on your local craigslist, or on camera specific forums (for whichever cam you would like to test)
Ive found that alot of people are eager to rent or barter their gear/services on days the gear isnt out working.

Good luck!
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 4:13 am

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
Marcel Beck wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:As others have said, BMD's cameras don't record frame rates higher than 30 fps.


Won't the 4k camera shoot 50i? Would that be enough to slow down to 24?


Yes, according to the specs: 1920 x 1080i50 and 1920 x 1080i59.94.

You could slow that down to 24 or 25 fps, but not at 4K resolution.

-


Now that I give another look at the new (current) user manual that was released with the version 1.4 firmware, I notice it says:

bmpc-4k record formats.jpg
bmpc-4k record formats.jpg (65.55 KiB) Viewed 13930 times


"1920 x 1080i50 output"
"1920 x 1080i59.94 output"

I wonder if the use of the word "output" means these are live output formats from the 6G-SDI connector, and possibly not recording formats?

(The BMPC-4K tech specs page on the BMD website doesn't use the word "output".)

-
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 am

no 60p
Last edited by Darryl Gregory on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 11:54 am

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:I wonder if the use of the word "output" means these are live output formats from the 6G-SDI connector, and possibly not recording formats?

(The BMPC-4K tech specs page on the BMD website doesn't use the word "output".)

-


The Magic 8 Balls says "all signs point to yes". That's too bad. This procedure on my C100 = some pretty nice 50% slo mo. BMD could sure use a few good tech writers.
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Sats K.

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 3:03 pm

Hi guys, this is my first post and i'm aware of all the negative criticism you guys at blackmagic are reciving, most of which is unfounded and silly. But, this whole "60fps drama" wasn't really nicely done on your part.. First of all you were holding tech specs on your website which clearly indicated that the cinema camera doesen't do 60fps interlaced and the 4k camera had this in its specs.. So logicaly most of us assumed that this is an extra feature that comes with the 4k model and were very happy about it..

I myself ordered the 4k model 3 months ago (an upgrade from my current 5dmk2 setup), i will use it mostly for shooting music videos where the 60fps option is very needed!! I basicaly ordered the 4k not because of it shooting 4k, but because the crop factor not being so awful as on cinema camera, plus i naively thought it will do 60fps (where currently we use a 7d which is only 720p)!
Now that i saw metabones speedbooster for cinema camera plus the 4k actually not doing 60fps, i'm not sure anymore that i should get the 4k model?!..

But back to the whole FPS drama,. C'mon guys you are really tellin me that all this wasn't done to put an extra hook for buyin the 4k model? That it was soooo hard to put a notice somewhere that 4k cant do 60fps and that this is output!.. That it was sooo hard to make a post indicating that 4k wont shoot 60fps,. and lettin all kinds of rumors spread and let people bicker about it.. Not very nice guys!
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 3:43 pm

No one (official) ever said the camera would do 60 fps. We've been discussing the _possibility_ of 50/60p in a later firmware update for weeks now, and we also had the conversation about 50/60i already.
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bhook

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 3:47 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:No one (official) ever said the camera would do 60 fps. We've been discussing the _possibility_ of 50/60p in a later firmware update for weeks now, and we also had the conversation about 50/60i already.


I h8 that you appear to be right about this but the "Official BMD Product Tech Specs Page" probably still says 50i and 59.94i fps is supported in the BMCC4K. No confusion...that's what it says.
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Sats K.

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 4:30 pm

no one official stated it will do 60fps?!! c'mon.. its been officialy stated on their website for months now..
if you put 60fps interlaced bellow 25fps and 30fps guess what majority of not technicaly savy people will think? you are tellin me that this couldn't be corrected for months on their webpage or at least made more understandable that it is output and not recording, i just find that not fair and honest..

Sorry for being an idiot and not understanding that this is output solution that is used because of some special monitor, that have this input, in tv and broadcasting..

this, of course, was very hard to mention on their OFFICIAL website for months now.. :P
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Flat4

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Re: Slow motion shooting.

PostThu Aug 01, 2013 6:00 pm

Sats K. wrote:no one official stated it will do 60fps?!! c'mon.. its been officialy stated on their website for months now..
if you put 60fps interlaced bellow 25fps and 30fps guess what majority of not technicaly savy people will think? you are tellin me that this couldn't be corrected for months on their webpage or at least made more understandable that it is output and not recording, i just find that not fair and honest..

Sorry for being an idiot and not understanding that this is output solution that is used because of some special monitor, that have this input, in tv and broadcasting..

this, of course, was very hard to mention on their OFFICIAL website for months now.. :P



You guys are silly. 1080i 60 means 60 FIELDS PER SECOND and not FRAMES PER SECOND Divide that by two and you get 30. Therefore 1080i 60 has a frame rate of 30FPS.. Let's move on..
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