ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

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Steve

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ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 6:46 pm

Could someone who knows the internals of the camera explain the ProRes "filimic" mode and how it differs from the ProRes "video" mode.

I was told at NAB specifically that the ProRes was a codec that had 2 NON-LINEAR/NON-LOG (Filmic and REC709) gammas optimally pulled from the 16-bit LOG RAW data converted from the sensor.

Filmic I assumed was either for conversion to film or to make video look more like film. (Forgot to ask.) In other words, it was like Panasonic's non-REC709 modes. Either it made the video look like it was shot film or it was very flat and was used for conversion to film. In the latter case it needed a special monitor mode. And, because it was so flat, it would look much like logC footage even though it was NOT log data.

There is also the view that BM really has applied 10-bit log conversion (logC?) to the 16-bit sensor data so the Filimic mode matches the RAW mode in DR, but has been compressed. A killer feature!

If this is correct, does only the ProRes codec get log data?

If this is correct, what is BM recommending -- other than Resolve (assuming it has a ProRes UN-log mode) -- to handle the log data. (And, yes on can unconvert log in any CC by applying the correct conversion.) FCP also has log plug-ins.

But, first we need the facts about the "Filimic" mode. And, a sample would be great!
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Kamel

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 7:50 pm

Hi Steve,
To my knowledge the difference between movie and film modes is that when you shoot in movie mode, you will get a look up table applied to the shot. So, you will end up with something ready for you to throw into your non-linear editor and start cutting.
However, when you shoot in film mode you will have a flat picture that you should take to resolve to grade. In other words you will have more latitude in your shot, which they call LOG-C on an Alexa.
I hope these few lines have clarified things for you.
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John Brawley

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 8:56 pm

Steve wrote:Could someone who knows the internals of the camera explain the ProRes "filimic" mode and how it differs from the ProRes "video" mode.

I was told at NAB specifically that the ProRes was a codec that had 2 NON-LINEAR/NON-LOG (Filmic and REC709) gammas optimally pulled from the 16-bit LOG RAW data converted from the sensor.

Filmic I assumed was either for conversion to film or to make video look more like film. (Forgot to ask.) In other words, it was like Panasonic's non-REC709 modes. Either it made the video look like it was shot film or it was very flat and was used for conversion to film. In the latter case it needed a special monitor mode. And, because it was so flat, it would look much like logC footage even though it was NOT log data.

There is also the view that BM really has applied 10-bit log conversion (logC?) to the 16-bit sensor data so the Filimic mode matches the RAW mode in DR, but has been compressed. A killer feature!

If this is correct, does only the ProRes codec get log data?

If this is correct, what is BM recommending -- other than Resolve (assuming it has a ProRes UN-log mode) -- to handle the log data. (And, yes on can unconvert log in any CC by applying the correct conversion.) FCP also has log plug-ins.

But, first we need the facts about the "Filimic" mode. And, a sample would be great!


FILM mode is a LOG mode. It's BMD's version of LOG.

It's not really to make it look more like film, BUT a way of capturing the most dynamic range possible (16bit linear) and recording it into the 10 bit container that ProRes recording offers. When shooting in FILM mode, you almost get the same DR as shooting in RAW, but with slight compression. Yes . It's your killer feature !

You can also use FILM when shooting DNx.

IN RAW when shooting CinemaDNG, you get everything anyway and FILM or VIDEO aren't relevant.

VIDEO is intended for those that want to go straight to edit and not have to grade their shots. You might choose to do this if you're in a hurry, or don't want the hassle of going though Resolve before the edit.

When shooting VIDEO you do sacrifice some of the dynamic range.

jb
John Brawley
Cinematographer
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Steve

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:FILM mode is a LOG mode. It's BMD's version of LOG.

It's not really to make it look more like film, BUT a way of capturing the most dynamic range possible (16bit linear) and recording it into the 10 bit container that ProRes recording offers. When shooting in FILM mode, you almost get the same DR as shooting in RAW, but with slight compression. Yes . It's your killer feature !

You can also use FILM when shooting DNx.

jb


For those of us who could care less about "grading" -- way too much hassle -- and who simply want wide DR and who don't worry the least about ProRes "compression" (just think of watching cable HDTV) -- this is huge news.

I just downloaded a Nattress FCPX plug-in that has support for logC and Cineon. Which should be used with FILM, or is FILM's log too different.
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John Brawley

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:43 pm

Steve wrote:
For those of us who could care less about "grading" -- way too much hassle -- and who simply want wide DR and who don't worry the least about ProRes "compression" (just think of watching cable HDTV) -- this is huge news.

I just downloaded a Nattress FCPX plug-in that has support for logC and Cineon. Which should be used with FILM, or is FILM's log too different.


You will still need to grade if you shoot FILM. The images are very desaturated and flat. So even if you plan to do it just within your NLE, you'll still need to do *something*.

I don't have personal experience with the plugin's you mention, but basically it's a LOG image with slight differences to all the other LOG image setups out there.

jb
John Brawley
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Lorka

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 8:33 am

Quick one: is it possible to display the test clip dngs in log (in Resolve)? I can't find a combination of clip raw settings and/or lut nodes that do this.
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John Brawley

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:04 am

Lorka wrote:Quick one: is it possible to display the test clip dngs in log (in Resolve)? I can't find a combination of clip raw settings and/or lut nodes that do this.


Not yet, but I think the BMD guys are looking at this. In a way it doesn't matter because the full range is always there. Displaying it in LOG won't give you any more to work with.

jb
John Brawley
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Lorka

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Re: ProRes"Filmic" mode: log or non-linear?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:16 am

No, true - but I generally prefer to start grades from log over 709 where possible. Plus it's just a geek out thing, I'd love to be able to see the whole range in a frame. ;)

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