Frame Bars?

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Joel Crane

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Frame Bars?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 7:05 pm

Just a pretty simple feature, but does the BMC's screen have frame bars for different crop factors?
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Luke Armstrong

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 8:21 pm

Would be so useful, especially for 2.35/2.4 aspects - otherwise its back to good old electrical tape! :D
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popcornflix

Re: Frame Bars?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Frame guides would be great, but make them 2.40 for widescreen, please.

Even though folks say "2.35," widescreen hasn't used that ratio since the 1970s.
Widescreen/Scope crop in HD is 1920 x 800 = 2.40:1

The only reason I'm fussing over this is that another camera company added an overlay, and made it 2.35:1, because that's what user asked for. Then they asked for 2.40:1 when the framing was wrong.

So, 2.40:1 frame guides, please!
Last edited by popcornflix on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Luke Armstrong

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:15 pm

Ok good point. So 2.4 is actually 2400x1000 pixels on a 2.4k Cinema DNG file.
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John Brawley

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:37 pm

Luke wrote:Ok good point. So 2.4 is actually 2400x1000 pixels on a 2.4k Cinema DNG file.



I think we're confusing FRAME LINE (not bar) generators with the pixel size of the files. 2.40:1 is the ASPECT ratio and the current camera has a 1.78:1 shooting ratio (16x9).

There's no frame line generators at the moment but I'm sure if you ask loudly enough it can be done. Many of the better onboard LCD monitors also have frame line generators built in. Be careful with marking or putting tape on the screen. Remember that this is also the menu interface of the camera.

jb
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Luke Armstrong

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:03 am

Crap - never thought of that John! So used to being able to put a bit of tape over a monitor!

Yeah I'm talking about guide lines rather than the masks.

The only reason I mention the pixels in a 2.40 ratio DNG image is for clarity on exactly what aspect we're shooting for.
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Joel Crane

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 1:35 am

Yeah, sorry, frame lines, not bars :P
I thought it might just be a case of using my monitor. I'd be hesitant about putting electrical tape over the camera's screen only because it's also the touch screen controller and you'd be removing and replacing the tape all the freaking time.
One other way I've done things on dslrs is to use like a mobile phone screen protector and draw the lines on that.
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Washington Irving

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:21 am

Ideally with frame bars we could set custom ratios. I love to shoot stuff for web at 2:1 but that option never exists. Also, some people prefer 2.35:1 or 2.4:1. Some like to shoot 1.85:1... you get the idea.
Bars that overlay the image with a controllable amount of transparency is ideal.
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John Brawley

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:45 am

Washington Irving wrote:Ideally with frame bars we could set custom ratios. I love to shoot stuff for web at 2:1 but that option never exists. Also, some people prefer 2.35:1 or 2.4:1. Some like to shoot 1.85:1... you get the idea.
Bars that overlay the image with a controllable amount of transparency is ideal.


And a matching extraction in Resolve too would be good.

jb
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kylebrodeur

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 4:03 am

I was hoping for frame lines as well. I'll get over it though, I've gotten pretty used to framing 2.35-like on a DSLR without lines.
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Washington Irving

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 4:19 am

John Brawley wrote:
And a matching extraction in Resolve too would be good.

jb


Indeed. Metadata of the crop ratio that editing programs can use would be ideal.
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David Dominguez

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 10:36 pm

PLEASE add frame lines. I cant afford to get a monitor to tape off. Thanks
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Aguilasalmon

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:03 pm

cinephile67 wrote:PLEASE add frame lines. I cant afford to get a monitor to tape off. Thanks


Agree! This would be an essential tool.

regards!
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jeneyakos

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 6:22 am

I would be really glad if they would add the FRAME BARS to the features. And i believe that this would make the camera even more professional.
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Davey Roberts

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 3:43 pm

+1

I would also appreciate this feature...
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Fabián Matas

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 4:13 pm

Please add frame lines, that feature doesn't add heat :)

popcornflix

Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 7:29 pm

Until BMD adds frame guides to the BMDCC, if its an absolute must, just get a cheap little LCD viewfinder and tape it off. You don't have to use it for anything else besides framing, so you can go very cheap if you have to.
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rick.lang

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 7:41 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Washington Irving wrote:Ideally with frame bars we could set custom ratios. I love to shoot stuff for web at 2:1 but that option never exists. Also, some people prefer 2.35:1 or 2.4:1. Some like to shoot 1.85:1... you get the idea.
Bars that overlay the image with a controllable amount of transparency is ideal.


And a matching extraction in Resolve too would be good.

jb


There's a thought but there may be no need to force a crop of the same pixel locations on all frames. In terms of CinemaDNG, since the camera will fill 2400x1350 useable pixels, one should colour everything available and perhaps in the NLE move that 2400x1000 pixel window up or down as it suits the editor assuming the desired aspect ratio for distribution is 2.4:1... This approach was suggested on BMCuser.com by popcornflix:
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?7 ... #post16356

I was reading Wikipedia on film formats for cinema. As was mentioned earlier, since about 1970, the correct ratio is 2:39:1 but in the digital age that may be unworkable as we need ratios that are derived from pixel integers not fractions of a pixel.

If a digital 'film' format of 2.4:1 has not been formally defined, somebody needs to do it now. It may be defined already but I'm not knowledgeable about these things--just want to do the right thing, like using 1920x1080 HD. I've always enjoyed the wide-screen view of Panavision. Would be satisfying to do that easily with the BMCC/Resolve/FCPX.
Rick Lang
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Scott R McCartney

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 7:55 pm

It's probably worth noting that if the end result is for cinema projection there are already standards for delivery which the BMCC is more than capable of delivering, as 2K DCP files are smaller than the full res that the camera will provide.

from wikipedia;

Maximum frame sizes are 2048×1080 for 2K DC, and 4096×2160 for 4K DC. Common formats are:
SMPTE (JPEG 2000)
Flat (1998×1080 or 3996×2160), ~1.85:1 aspect ratio
Scope (2048×858 or 4096×1716), ~2.39:1 aspect ratio
HDTV (1920×1080 or 3840×2160), 16:9 aspect ratio (although not specifically defined in the DCI specification, this resolution is DCI compliant per section 3.2.1.2).
Full (2048×1080 or 4096×2160) (Official name by DCI is Full Container)
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george_costakis

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 9:21 pm

+1 for adding framing options. I really like the idea of including this in the metadata as well. This would be a great pairing.
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rick.lang

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 10:53 pm

scottrmccartney wrote:It's probably worth noting that if the end result is for cinema projection there are already standards for delivery which the BMCC is more than capable of delivering, as 2K DCP files are smaller than the full res that the camera will provide.

from wikipedia;

Maximum frame sizes are 2048×1080 for 2K DC, and 4096×2160 for 4K DC. Common formats are:
SMPTE (JPEG 2000)
Flat (1998×1080 or 3996×2160), ~1.85:1 aspect ratio
Scope (2048×858 or 4096×1716), ~2.39:1 aspect ratio
HDTV (1920×1080 or 3840×2160), 16:9 aspect ratio (although not specifically defined in the DCI specification, this resolution is DCI compliant per section 3.2.1.2).
Full (2048×1080 or 4096×2160) (Official name by DCI is Full Container)


Thanks, Scott! The Scope definition for digital content delivery sure gives us lots of wiggle room in framing a shot during post production when working with the CinemaDNG media. I think I would still do as much work as possible at 2400x1000 or 2400x1004 and only go down to the official Scope size when producing the deliverable. Good idea?
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Luke Armstrong

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Aug 25, 2012 7:59 pm

Hi Rick

What we're proposing is not a new format for shooting, just simply some guide lines overlayed on the lcd screen for framing, with the intention of cropping in post.
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Bruce William Harper

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostMon Dec 03, 2012 1:55 pm

I get the feeling that this topic is a black hole, but without user definable frame lines Black Magic has dropped the ball on their Cinema Camera.
Taping off frame lines doesn't sound like a good idea on a touch screen.
And with the abnormal sensor size one might find cropping to 2K to facilitate the use of 16mm or 2/3 inch lenses opens up a much larger and professional series of lens options. Custom configured 2K frame lines would be great here.

Any thoughts from the people at Black Magic?
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostMon Dec 03, 2012 2:00 pm

Sounds like slack that could easily be taken up with a nice firmware update.
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WAUU

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 12:20 pm

I sure hope Blackmagic does this soon, maybe in the next update?
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Luke Armstrong

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 12:34 pm

Bruce William Harper wrote:I get the feeling that this topic is a black hole, but without user definable frame lines Black Magic has dropped the ball on their Cinema Camera.
Taping off frame lines doesn't sound like a good idea on a touch screen.
And with the abnormal sensor size one might find cropping to 2K to facilitate the use of 16mm or 2/3 inch lenses opens up a much larger and professional series of lens options. Custom configured 2K frame lines would be great here.

Any thoughts from the people at Black Magic?


It does seem a little funny that we have a 'Cinema Camera' that doesn't have Cinema format guides. Pretty please?
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Tom

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 12:59 pm

Can I just add to the "noise" here, I have just been using electrical tape and very carefully sticking it down - not something that looks professional on a shoot or something which is probably good for the hardware.

Also, if you do add them, yes, please make sure its is 2:4 (or 2:39) not 2:35.

There are obviously many other things to add in the future, but this one seems so simple on a technical level, I cannot see why it would take months to implement. Even if it was on its own in a minor update.

I have a shoot at the end of the month which needs it - would be great if I could ditch the electrical tape before then!

Thank you!
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 1:30 pm

Any tape put on a touch screen seems contraproductive...

I don't own a CC, but i guess you could put the protective covers for ipad & co on the screen (touch would still work, as it does with the tablets) and then use transparency markers to draw your guides. As added bonus this would protect your screen as well.
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David Sandberg

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 2:42 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:i guess you could put the protective covers for ipad & co on the screen (touch would still work, as it does with the tablets) and then use transparency markers to draw your guides. As added bonus this would protect your screen as well.


That's exactly what I've done. To get the placement of the lines right I rendered out a videofile with black bars indicating 2.40:1 and played it back in camera.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 3:35 pm

David Sandberg wrote:
Mac Jaeger wrote:i guess you could put the protective covers for ipad & co on the screen (touch would still work, as it does with the tablets) and then use transparency markers to draw your guides. As added bonus this would protect your screen as well.


That's exactly what I've done. To get the placement of the lines right I rendered out a videofile with black bars indicating 2.40:1 and played it back in camera.


Yep. As was discussed a few days ago in another thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8457

Cheers.

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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Frame Bars?

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 3:45 pm

Ah, that's where i had the idea from... ;-)

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