Pocket Cinema Camera "Blooming Sensor"

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1773207@N23/discuss/72157629252110028/ for same issues with other sensors

Very surprised to see the 5DmII and 7D on there, as one commenter put it, so eloquently, "I think we're on to a conspiracy here. LOL!"

Maybe it is not the sensor ?

It may as well be over exposed spot that otherwise would be black but fw created nice round dot over it ?


So someone with the cam should test it out to see if that is the case.


I have seen similar thing in Resolve key if you do not quite nail it.
It may be the similar case here. But this is just my wild guess.

There is a big problem here with people being unable to differentiate between normal clipping or bokeh patterns and big blobby blooms.

As a rule of thumb I would suggest the following checklist to determine whether its actually one of these blooms or not:

Are the blooms occurring within the in-focus part of the field?
Are the blooms smoothly rounded, and not an irregular shape?
Are they solid white?
Do they have a hard edge?
Is the source of light not supposed to be rounded?

If the answers to all of these are Yes then it is likely that its this problem. There will be some minor exceptions, but these should be fairly consistent.

Examples:



Not the bloom problem: shape is irregular and clearly just clipping.




Same again, these are clearly just clipped specular highlights.



Compared with these:



Are the blooms occurring within the in-focus part of the field? YES
Are the blooms smoothly rounded, and not an irregular shape? YES
Are they solid white? YES
Do they have a hard edge? YES
Is the source of light not supposed to be rounded? YES


On the left we have the problem, on the right is after it has been fixed:



Check-list again for the image on the left:

Are the blooms occurring within the in-focus part of the field? YES
Are the blooms smoothly rounded, and not an irregular shape? YES
Are they solid white? YES
Do they have a hard edge? YES
Is the source of light not supposed to be rounded? YES


Many of the examples on that Flickr page are from long exposures - flares grow and grow from light sources on long exposures anyway, they are not indicative of this same problem.

If we really want BMD to look into the potential issue - Its important we don't start pointing out normal looking images.

I agree on that.

If you have a problem or think it as i problem it is really crucial to have really detailed
documenting how you got the "error" and how it could be repeated in step by step break down.

So more precise you ask more precise result you get.

Something like "it feels like an error" is not very accurate definition.

People have different emotions but things that one can measure as in science is precise stuff.
Also as in science it has to be repeatable by others by the step by step guide.

This thread needs to be bumped, and stuck to the top of the forum until someone from BMD responds to this with firm explanation.

Tom
I couldn't agree with you more!!!!
Well done.

Ok I recognise there probably is an issue. But if people scream too loudly I worry they might stop shipments. I never noticed it on the footage when actually playing. I can live with it of they can't fix it. These things can get blown, no pun intended, out of proportion.

@ jimmy
I'm ok with you can live with it statement but asking people not to be vocal about this issue cause you fearing they will stop shipment is a bit much.
Imagine you need to shoot a beauty shot of a Model in a studio on a bright white over exposed background!
Good luck executing it with the pocket in its current state.
This issue need to be address and resolved.

Just downloaded Phillips footage and looked into it - I saw those "white blob" anomalies before, but it was material from my FS100, and I think I might have an idea what it is.

Hi Frank

I've also had this issue with the FS100 when I've been trying to push the camera too far in underexposed environments where bright highlights/light sources/white areas were present. Did you ever resolve the issue? I've got a few theories myself about why it happens but despite going backwards and forwards with Sony Engineers they have never given me a definitive reason, workaround or solution.

Cheers, Simon

Excellent post Tom. I too was going through the Flickr page thinking the same thing. Many of those examples simply are not the same thing.

@ jimmy
I'm ok with you can live with it statement but asking people not to be vocal about this issue cause you fearing they will stop shipment is a bit much.
Imagine you need to shoot a beauty shot of a Model in a studio on a bright white over exposed background!
Good luck executing it with the pocket in its current state.
This issue need to be address and resolved.

Still not statement from BMD regarding the Issue.

Every video I see from the pocket has this: at 01:50
******NOT MY FOOTAGE******



The light bulbs are behind the hanging food, but the ORBS crash to the front like a wrecking ball.

BMD, CAN THIS "BLOOMING - ORB THING" BE FIXED? IF SO, HOW?

this is a screenshot not original ?

we should look at the original file.

The link is there at the top, for you to do so.

That video is full of the ORBs - "BLOOMING" all through the market scenes, and other fluorescent lights throughout the video.

MP4 not Prorez?

I have found a statement tha fuji placed on their official site about blooming issue of X10 and X-S1 cameras:

Statement Regarding the FUJIFILM X10 and X-S1 Digital Camera ‘Blooming’ Effect
The FUJIFILM X10 and X-S1 digital cameras were made available by Fujifilm late last year, and have been generally very well received by customers, who admire the excellent picture quality, manual zoom lens and viewfinder.

However, we did receive some inquiries concerning the so-called ‘white disc’ or ‘blooming’ occurrence, where exceptional highlights in the picture can appear as strongly delineated rounded shapes. This ‘blooming’ effect can occur with all digital cameras which use CMOS sensors, to varying degrees. It can also occur with the X10 and X-S1 when shooting in certain conditions, e.g. cars with front lights shining in dark night scene. The X10 and X-S1 are fitted with a very advanced sensor, which gives excellent picture quality and low noise, but which does give a different ‘blooming’ effect from other cameras.

Fujifilm has a long-standing history of delivering top quality products to the market. In response to our customers’ comments, we have worked hard to find an improvement to reduce the ‘blooming’ effect of the X10 and X-S1. Below are the actions we have undertaken.

1. In February, we announced a firmware upgrade for the X10 (version 1.03) which does reduce the white disc occurrence specifically in EXR mode. It works by identifying scenes that are likely to get ‘white disc’ blooming. When the camera recognizes such a scene, it automatically increases the ISO and optimizes DR (dynamic range). As the ISO increases, the white discs are less evident.
* New firmware for the X-S1 will be available from March 21, 2012.

2. We will also develop a modified sensor, which will more universally resolve the ‘white disc’ blooming effect in all modes. We are working hard to make this new sensor available from late May 2012.

We encourage any customer with an X10 and X-S1 who has experienced the ‘white disc’ phenomenon to call their local authorized Fujifilm service centre.

Fujifilm is committed to delivering the highest quality products to the photographic community, and is happy to provide this improvement

Read that carefully, because the information about firmware update is crucial:

In February, we announced a firmware upgrade for the X10 (version 1.03) which does reduce the white disc occurrence specifically in EXR mode. It works by identifying scenes that are likely to get ‘white disc’ blooming. When the camera recognizes such a scene, it automatically increases the ISO and optimizes DR (dynamic range). As the ISO increases, the white discs are less evident

BMD can't make such thing in the firmware because BMPCC is a manual camera, it won't change ISO automatically... Even if it could, I don't think that I want that.

Here is the official link to the Fuji support website with this statement:
https://www.fujifilmusa.com/support/Ser ... tid=664262

And we are talking about cameras that costs $370 and $630. If they fixed it in cheaper cameras I hope that BMD will fix it in $1000 camera too.

[Tony Rivera]

We are looking into this question. We will give you folks an update when we have more information.

The German video web site Slashcam, which has a well-reputed test team (that also works for print magazines on video production) just confirmed the bloom/white orb issue in its own camera test: http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Blackmagic-Design-Pocket-Cinema-Camera---Sensor-Blooming.html

Thanks a lot Tony!

Examples form slashcam. In German but the videos are what´s important.
http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Bla ... oming.html

Edit: Lol, a few seconds too late

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=83Nr0r6movM

Thanks a lot Tony!

Examples form slashcam. In German but the videos are what´s important.
http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Bla ... oming.html

Edit: Lol, a few seconds too late

I think the Second Video is very interesting, you can clearly see how the Blooming gets Smaller when the overall exposure gets lower.

Wow, I really hope BMD can get this fixed, or there will be a lot of unhappy customers. At first I thought it might be something that your can work around easily, but this seems like a pretty serious issue.

Rotating venulators on a boat, are like "disco" mirror balls, they are going to kick back very bright high reflections of specular light. I think this would be a "worse" case example. Not a typical situation.

I did a quick test this morning when sun came out, and I could only get the "bloom" on very highly overexposed highlights, stopping down eliminated the "globe bloom" and resulted in a normal looking clipped highlight, same shape as reflection, no "blooming". Glad BM is looking into it, meanwhile careful attention to highlights and exposure should reduce the issue for now.

Great,
I just got a notification that my pocket is about to ship shortly... now what!
I really don't know what to do here...
ordinarily I would be jumping up and down in excitement but now I am not sure what to do!
any one care to share his/her thoughts?

I did a quick test this morning when sun came out, and I could only get the "bloom" on very highly overexposed highlights, stopping down eliminated the "globe bloom" and resulted in a normal looking clipped highlight, same shape as reflection, no "blooming". Glad BM is looking into it, meanwhile careful attention to highlights and exposure should reduce the issue for now.[/quote]


Ok, fair enough... but what about shooting a night scene on the street... can you control street light?
can you control on coming traffic from passing by?

we all solving shooting issues all day long on a set while shooting but I'm afraid there are some scanarios that one will not be able to control.

Great,
I just got a notification that my pocket is about to ship shortly... now what!
I really don't know what to do here...
ordinarily I would be jumping up and down in excitement but now I am not sure what to do!
any one care to share his/her thoughts?

When you get it, send it to me. I'll take care of it for you.

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

@ jimmy
I'm ok with you can live with it statement but asking people not to be vocal about this issue cause you fearing they will stop shipment is a bit much.
Imagine you need to shoot a beauty shot of a Model in a studio on a bright white over exposed background!
Good luck executing it with the pocket in its current state.
This issue need to be address and resolved.

yeah, if only I had a dollar every time that scenario happens.....

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

Honestly, if it means that the issue gets resolved, I'm all for it.

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

Honestly, if it means that the issue gets resolved, I'm all for it.

And if the issue takes 6 months or more....



personally I would just avoid blooming by not shooting the Sun, clipping strong lights, using higher shutter speeds and sometimes even a lens shade can ease the issue. Photography 101.

You can always buy the pocket camera that's on ebay for 2999.99, hurry before it's too late.

@Jimmy
actually I make a living shooting these kind of shots...

@Jimmy
actually I make a living shooting these kind of shots...

If its a good living then you should buy the EF mount then.

You can always buy the pocket camera that's on ebay for 2999.99, hurry before it's too late.

You jest but maybe in years to come it will seem like a bargain. The famous pocket cinema camera, only 100 were ever made, the same kind once owned by the famous cinematographer Philip Bloom.

@Jimmy
actually I make a living shooting these kind of shots...

If its a good living then you should buy the EF mount then.

I have one.thanks.

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

You'd rather BM ship a camera with a known issue/defect? Genuine question as your statement seems so bizarre I'm looking for the tounge in cheek or sarcasm icon just in case I missed it! The sensor blooming is hardly pixel peeping, or camera geek only territory and I could see it cropping up in most situations apart from tightly controlled shooting environments. You could probably get away with it for some uses, on the web etc, but for anything more demanding it would be a big NO.

It looks like the soft launch was prudent, although why on earth they couldn't just come out and say that is what they were doing is beyond me. Hopefully a firmware fix is not out of the question or like you say it really could be a long wait.

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

I don't know am I the first one who discovered this issue, but for sure I am the first one who wrote about it, started this thread and describe what I thought was "blooming sensor". I had the same problem a year ago with Fuji X10 so when I saw footage from BMPCC (which I am very excited to buy) I've instantly remembered photos shot by X10… The orbs are IDENTICAL to me (and for many people too).

Do you think that I shouldn't have wrote about it? Really?
That I should shut my mouth, let it go and do not tell anybody about my concerns?

I'm a professional graphic designer and photographer for 8 years now. Some time ago (about 2 years) I started to make corporate short movies. Factory line, interviews, outdoor shots of buildings and studio white background production videos. I want to buy BMPCC because I don't think I would need anything else. Especially RAW for white background production shots would be great for me. Many times white background would go overexposed in some areas so the issue of those "ORBS" makes me very concern. I don't think that this is an amatour camera so "casual watcher" is not the one who is paying me for the shots. Belive me that they can see the difference. I don't want to spend 10$ without knowing that I'm paying for the best thing I could get for it. So spending 1000$ for something that IMHO has a defect is absurd. If this "issue" is going to stay I'm not buying it, period. But i'm not going to turn back on BMD, I'll buy 2.5K Cinema Camera. I don't need 2.5K but I can't have ocasionally blobs on my footage. Removing them in post would be a pain in the ass.

Summing this up… You are right, that "casual watcher" won't noticed that, but I don't think that for many of us here a "casual watcher" is a target audience for a footage made with BMPCC.

And please, don't write something like "If you want proffesional camera buy one" becouse probably most of us can't afford the Epic or Alexa. BMD makes an affordable alternative that works. So please BMD make something with that issue so I could buy it knowing that I have the camera that is surely a price and quality revolution in a filmmaking world:)

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

I don't know am I the first one who discovered this issue, but for sure I am the first one who wrote about it, started this thread and describe what I thought was "blooming sensor". I had the same problem a year ago with Fuji X10 so when I saw footage from BMPCC (which I am very excited to buy) I've instantly remembered photos shot by X10… The orbs are IDENTICAL to me (and for many people too).

Do you think that I shouldn't have wrote about it? Really?
That I should shut my mouth, let it go and do not tell anybody about my concerns?

I'm a professional graphic designer and photographer for 8 years now. Some time ago (about 2 years) I started to make corporate short movies. Factory line, interviews, outdoor shots of buildings and studio white background production videos. I want to buy BMPCC because I don't think I would need anything else. Especially RAW for white background production shots would be great for me. Many times white background would go overexposed in some areas so the issue of those "ORBS" makes me very concern. I don't think that this is an amatour camera so "casual watcher" is not the one who is paying me for the shots. Belive me that they can see the difference. I don't want to spend 10$ without knowing that I'm paying for the best thing I could get for it. So spending 1000$ for something that IMHO has a defect is absurd. If this "issue" is going to stay I'm not buying it, period. But i'm not going to turn back on BMD, I'll buy 2.5K Cinema Camera. I don't need 2.5K but I can't have ocasionally blobs on my footage. Removing them in post would be a pain in the ass.

Summing this up… You are right, that "casual watcher" won't noticed that, but I don't think that for many of us here a "casual watcher" is a target audience for a footage made with BMPCC.

And please, don't write something like "If you want proffesional camera buy one" becouse probably most of us can't afford the Epic or Alexa. BMD makes an affordable alternative that works. So please BMD make something with that issue so I could buy it knowing that I have the camera that is surely a price and quality revolution in a filmmaking world:)

Thanks for the CV.

Thanks for the CV.

You are welcome.

Lets get this back on topic and less personal


Whether an issue is a problem for you personally or not - an issue is an issue.

The main reason to report any potential issue is of course to try and raise it to the attention of BMD and to try and get it resolved. BMD have stated that they are now aware of the issue so unless anyone has anything additional which might further help to resolve or identify the issue - its probably best to sit back and stay calm.

In these situations, which are understandably tense for people who have ordered and are expecting delivery of the camera - the best thing for us all to do is to remain objective.

Frank, I am very interested in what you posted - obviously whatever you have in mind is at this stage speculative - but I would love to know more information about your theory.

Lets get this back on topic and less personal


Whether an issue is a problem for you personally or not - an issue is an issue.

The main reason to report any potential issue is of course to try and raise it to the attention of BMD and to try and get it resolved. BMD have stated that they are now aware of the issue so unless anyone has anything additional which might further help to resolve or identify the issue - its probably best to sit back and stay calm.

In these situations, which are understandably tense for people who have ordered and are expecting delivery of the camera - the best thing for us all to do is to remain objective.

Frank, I am very interested in what you posted - obviously whatever you have in mind is at this stage speculative - but I would love to know more information about your theory.

I might possibly have to wait for an extended time for the camera due to posters about this issue. That personally affects me, it defines personal. Comments on forums don't really affect anyone otherwise.

Frank, I am very interested in what you posted - obviously whatever you have in mind is at this stage speculative - but I would love to know more information about your theory.

It's too early Tom. First I need to get some unmolested footage - that shows the blobs - straight from the card in my hands, so I can look into it. Everything else would just be speculation. I'm working on it.

Well, mine has just shipped from Adorama. My problem is that I'm in Brazil and will count on a friend (that lives in Miami) to bring it to me, probably next month. So returning, if I keep it, is almost impossible. I have to say that this blooming effect is almost making me give up and return it. If the effect/issue is actually exclusively sensor related and no firmware fixing is possible I see myself having big headaches with it. Really, don't want to overrate it but those car lights (and also the boat highlights) are terrible in my opinion.
Any word from BMD??

Any word from BMD??

BMD's current statement :http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11700&start=100#p74065

I just had a different Idea in what direction this can go. (This theory highly speculative. It is just an Idea I had in mind the odds of this not being the problem are quite high! Just one of many possibilities.)

I remember that the S-Log on the Sony PMW-F3 had a feature that allowed it to output data via HD-SDI that would not clip at 100% exposure but at 104% exposure. So when I recall correctly some external recorders would record up to RGB 267|267|267 instead of 255|255|255 .
What if the BMPCC would internally treat data similar to that but then for some reason only the data till value 255 of 267 can be read out by the used editing suites. Maybe it could also be Prores not allowing values beyond 255 to be written. In that case I would imagine everything in the top 4% of the Spectrum should be clipping at 255, probably creating an effect pretty similar to what has been shown.

Again, highly speculative and nothing more then an Idea, I might be completely off with that one.

What if the BMPCC would internally treat data similar to that but then for some reason only the data till value 255 of 267 can be read out by the used editing suites.

I don't think that's the reason. Your idea basically is "extended clipping", which would only happen in places where bright light hits the sensor. But what we see here is white pixels in places where no (or considerably less) light hits the sensor!

In this thread (mostly in the earlier postings) there are a lot of different effects mixed up, that can be attributed to different reasons. But once you put away all bokeh discs and lens effects you still have a non-neglectable number of shots showing white light "flooding" from clipped pixels to their neighbours. When it happens, data is lost that can not be recreated by software.

The only way to prevent this effect is to under-expose far enough for the highlights not to spill over. This is a real problem, because highlights on polished surfaces can easily be 20 stops brighter than the shadows of your scene, which will be crushed to blacks if you expose to the highlights - after all this camera still only has 13 stops of dynamic range.

Actually this means that the camera might not be suited for certain types footage, think of an oldtimer-parade or a knights' tournament on a bright sunny day; or imagine the polished, sparkling diamond-ring on a brides hand getting lost in a white blob...

And if BMD recognises this as a hardware-problem, they _have_ to stop production and sort it out. It won't be nice for all of us customers, and it might shatter the last bit of trust, but it would be the only sane thing to do - from both the company's point of view and that of (most) customers.

You are probably right, it was just an idea that came into my mind, still a really odd issue.

After coming across this topic, I got a little nervous considering a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera is sitting 1 foot from me as I write this. I picked it up a few hours ago. I am a film guy. I used to own both 35 as well as Super16 motion picture film cameras. After selling, I pretty much went the Canon route. However, just thinking about having a 13 stop Super16 camera makes me smile. A motion picture film guy can only edit so many raw photos, appreciating dynamic range, as a still photographer, before loosing his mind. But enough about me.

THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM! YOU CAN'T CALL THIS A DIGITAL FILM CAMERA WITH WHITE ORBS FLOATING AROUND!

Having said that, I'm not worried about it. Blackmagic is too big a company to let this slide. My BMPCC is sitting in the box because I only have Canon lenses laying around or you'd be seeing a link to some tests. On Thursday my SLR Magic 12mm 1.6, and 25mm 0.95 arrive. I will do tests. If it is in fact a problem, BM will hear from me with proof from some very good lenses.

In the meantime I will shoot around it and sleep at night knowing there will never be a hair in the gate.

We are looking into this question. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

I hope you don't consider this question rude or inappropriate but I have confirmation from several people (including myself) that when you first made this post, it read:

We realize that this is an issue and take these questions seriously. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

Why did you change the "recognition of the issue" part? Is this something a lawyer or your boss made you do or did you decide to take the more noncommittal semantics on your own?