Pocket Cinema Camera "Blooming Sensor" 2

There is nothing wrong with BMD. What's wrong is the abuse on the BMD forum.

You're right Vince no room for personal abuse on the forum.

And honestly, John Brawley doesn't need me to defend him, but some of the crap that's been directed at him by people not qualified to carry his filter case (yeah you Honey Badger) is flat out stupid.

Not least of all from you.

But what you are saying is just making our theory stands...I mean if JB's camera was the only prototype and hook's camera is the first off of the line for the mass production then what we are theorizing here might be the case?

What I am saying is that there is certainly a problem, a HUGE problem. What I cannot say is what's causing the problem: is it the sensor or is it something BM changed in firmware later on? Well, I don't know. I don't know all the facts relating to the development of the camera. I don't know what was changed and what not.

But, I do know that BM needs to fix this (whatever the cause may be) and I'm (like J.J.F. Cramer) still clinging onto a small amount of hope that it can be fixed in firmware.

I went back to look at JB earlier footage of the pocket and truly believe that something happened between his prototype sensor to the mass production line sensor... my opinion only, but I do see instances in his footage where if shot with my camera would generate the dreaded orbs but yet his sensor interpreted it as common clipping of highlights...

Maybe JB's camera is indeed more resistent to blooming...

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But it seems our friend peter9863 has found some???

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11700#p73653

I appreciate if they (BMD) try come straight with any solution. And they don't want make a panic but the silence is unnerving for some of us (low Budget cinemadicers).

I was always mad how Canon is inflexible as regards missing AF in movie but they came out with dual CMOS and they said this Fall. No body doubt it will be as they said.

EDIT:

Btw have someone similar experiences with another BMD products? I that way how they work?

But it seems our friend peter9863 has found some???

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11700#p73653

Well, I really hate getting caught up in conjecture, but peter9863's examples gives me a little bit more hope that this is a firmware issue. If John Brawley's market footage was shot before the examples peter9863 has shown and we can safely assume that firmware development was still going on during his testing period, then it might explain blooming in the later footage, right? (I know I'm willing it to be so).

I've collected 16 more grabs from JB's ealier footage if anyone is interested. But don't know exactly which is before or after any firmware change... just for analysis... --> http://we.tl/WbkTPibRKC

Meanwhile two more vids, one free of and one full of the white orbs..

https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/73541661

https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/73540595

I undestand that the examples help us to deal with it until the medicine comes.

Not least of all from you.

I stated facts.

Remember the BMCC sensor issue did not show up in JB's prototype, only in some of the production run, after it got going, Is history repeating itself?

I undestand that the examples help us to deal with it until the medicine comes.

What's there to understand? White orbs will plague your footage if you don't stop down enough, it's that easy. The only question is: how much brighter then the rest of the scene are the highlights?
There are situations where the 13 stops cover the whole dynamic range of a scene, with correct exposure you'll be pretty safe then, e.g. shooting outdoors on a cloudy day. Yet there are situations where there are (probably lots of) lightsources that are so much brighter then the rest of the scene that you can only avoid the blooming artifacts by stopping way down until you loose significant parts of your image in the darkness.

I undestand that the examples help us to deal with it until the medicine comes.

There are situations where the 13 stops cover the whole dynamic range of a scene...

13 stops (if that's even true) is with RAW. This camera does not have Raw, and is not capable of 13 stops.

This camera does not have Raw,

But it will, or are you saying it never will?

I undestand that the examples help us to deal with it until the medicine comes.

There are situations where the 13 stops cover the whole dynamic range of a scene...

13 stops (if that's even true) is with RAW. This camera does not have Raw, and is not capable of 13 stops.

You have no idea what you are talking about, I dont mean this in a rude way but dont claim silly things like this as fact. The Alexa has close to 16 stops and that is in the on board recording which is DNxHD and prores. This camera and the BMCC EF and M4/3 cameras have 13 stops without raw. It achieves this by shooting a flat LOG like style. Other cameras have done this before raw by shooting log to DPX seq.

This camera does not have Raw,

But it will, or are you saying it never will?

I'm saying it doesn't.

All we "know" is what BMD are telling us. And they tell us lots of things. Would you bet your life on the honesty of this company?

You have no idea what you are talking about, I dont mean this in a rude way but dont claim silly things like this as fact. The Alexa has close to 16 stops and that is in the on board recording which is DNxHD and prores. This camera and the BMCC EF and M4/3 cameras have 13 stops without raw. It achieves this by shooting a flat LOG like style. Other cameras have done this before raw by shooting log to DPX seq.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I mean this in a rude, and completely honest and true way.

This is not the Alexa, so what does that have to do with anything? Does the Alexa have wild white orbs in all the highlights? Is that relevant here too? "Other cameras" allow you to delete clips and format a card. What good is talking about these other cameras?

You can capture 13 stops in 10 bit log. That´s a fact and the BMCC does that. Even the good old Sony F3 was able to do that. If you tested it for yourself, you would know. The BMCCs Log is very close to Alexas Log C.

On the BMPCC it´s a different story. Those white orbs that overload surrounding not blown pixels definitely cost a lot of DR. The BMPCC doesn´t have 13 stops at the moment. Not in Prores and not in RAW if the orbs occur in RAW, too.

You can capture 13 stops in 10 bit log. That´s a fact and the BMCC does that. Even the good old Sony F3 was able to do that. If you tested it for yourself, you would know. The BMCCs Log is very close to Alexas Log C.

On the BMPCC it´s a different story. Those white orbs that overload surrounding not blown pixels definitely cost a lot of DR. The BMPCC doesn´t have 13 stops at the moment. Not in Prores and not in RAW if the orbs occur in RAW, too.

Indeed. Yet another misconception is that there is an inherent link between the bit depth and a dynamic range.
I will go as far as to say that you can capture 13 stops of dynamic range with 8 bits or even 1.
Here is a helpful analogy: if we had a multi-storey building, then dynamic range is how tall the building is, and the bit depth would be how many steps would we need to get to the top floor.

And I second the fact that in its current white orb state the pocket does NOT have 13 stops pd DR.

On the BMPCC it´s a different story. Those white orbs that overload surrounding not blown pixels definitely cost a lot of DR.

+1

I don´t like this issue let´s see what happen.

Blooming=sales falls

I went back to look at JB earlier footage of the pocket and truly believe that something happened between his prototype sensor to the mass production line sensor... my opinion only, but I do see instances in his footage where if shot with my camera would generate the dreaded orbs but yet his sensor interpreted it as common clipping of highlights...

This could be further proof that it was the recent firmware updates that introduced the clipping. I couldn't see any orb issues in early footage and it's only (to me at least) been recent shots since the BMPCC firmware public release that we saw this.

All conjecture (and I hate I'm adding to the pile of it), but this orb could be from a beta that got seeded that was intended to fix the black dot issue. I mean, it's round and white. That's just my take, but I won't care until I hear an update from BMD. There are some crazy rumors going around...

This could be further proof that it was the recent firmware updates that introduced the clipping. I couldn't see any orb issues in early footage and it's only (to me at least) been recent shots since the BMPCC firmware public release that we saw this.

This could be everything. Could be that JB had a manually crafted camera with a preproduction sensor and the manufacturer had a problem in serial production. Remember first issues with 2,5K CC, it was a glass glued to the sensor from the same manufacturer plus not properly working test software. Sounds familiar? As long BMD has no answer it's wild guess.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11700#p73653

If I remember John Brawley indeed found orbs on his footage... question: only after firmware upgrade?? I'm quite sure BMD is aware of this path...

This could be everything. Could be that JB had a manually crafted camera with a preproduction sensor and the manufacturer had a problem in serial production. Remember first issues with 2,5K CC, it was a glass glued to the sensor from the same manufacturer plus not properly working test software. Sounds familiar? As long BMD has no answer it's wild guess.

Usually they build the preproduction model around the final sensor and don't change it later. Hm.

By now, BMD technicians definately know at least whether it's soft- or hardware issue, not sure what it means that they haven't said anything yet, could as well just be their improvable communication.

Great one, "no you are lol"

You claimed the pocket didnt have 13 stops because it was not raw, Myself and a few others just proved your statement to be FALSE. Now be a big boy, act professional and move on. Maybe if you were not so rude you would learn something. I know what IM talking about because I work doing this everyday. Sorry I dont have your stamp of approval but the film and television industry here seems to think otherwise.

Now saying that Im testing the pocket tomorrow till the end of the week. I will not shoot anything I plan on actually keeping while the white orb issue is still here. Also I will not be buying this camera till its solved or till they have a roadmap to fixing this without me sending my camera back to them.

So any other tests needed guys? Im going to throw some anamorphics on it and see what the blobs do to the lens flares for starters.

You have no idea what you are talking about, I dont mean this in a rude way but dont claim silly things like this as fact. The Alexa has close to 16 stops and that is in the on board recording which is DNxHD and prores. This camera and the BMCC EF and M4/3 cameras have 13 stops without raw. It achieves this by shooting a flat LOG like style. Other cameras have done this before raw by shooting log to DPX seq.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I mean this in a rude, and completely honest and true way.

This is not the Alexa, so what does that have to do with anything? Does the Alexa have wild white orbs in all the highlights? Is that relevant here too? "Other cameras" allow you to delete clips and format a card. What good is talking about these other cameras?

Ok, so my wife (who knows pretty much nothing about cameras) just noticed the orbs in my footage and said "well that's kind of annoying"...

So yeah, unbiased 3rd party taste test... This is officially a problem for me now.

What's going to happen to all the road tested but returned 'pockets'.
When I get mine, I hope it isn't second hand.

Ok, so my wife (who knows pretty much nothing about cameras) just noticed the orbs in my footage and said "well that's kind of annoying"...

So yeah, unbiased 3rd party taste test... This is officially a problem for me now.

OMG that IS serious!! My wife has been asking about when the 'little camera' that I've ordered will arrive. Let's hope the blooming is fixed before she sees some footage from it or I'm in deep, deep trouble!

Ok, so my wife (who knows pretty much nothing about cameras) just noticed the orbs in my footage and said "well that's kind of annoying"...

So yeah, unbiased 3rd party taste test... This is officially a problem for me now.

OMG that IS serious!! My wife has been asking about when the 'little camera' that I've ordered will arrive. Let's hope the blooming is fixed before she sees some footage from it or I'm in deep, deep trouble!

Actually, I believe "the wife test" has a long and storied history in tech companies, inside and outside Silicon Valley. Most new products, especially revolutionary ones, are subjected to it in one form or another. There's a screenplay in there somewhere...

Ok, so my wife (who knows pretty much nothing about cameras) just noticed the orbs in my footage and said "well that's kind of annoying"...

So yeah, unbiased 3rd party taste test... This is officially a problem for me now.

That's awesome. I did the same with my girlfriend. I asked her to come take a look at something which I do 10 to 20 times a day and the first thing she said was "What's up with all the reflections on the cars?" It was that daytime longshot of cars on a freeway. Forgot who's it was. Thought it was kinda funny. Told her it was a sensor problem in a new camera and she said, "Well that's not going to be good for someone!" Laughed again

Told her it was a sensor problem in a new camera and she said, "Well that's not going to be good for someone!" Laughed again

It ain't good. Now some sort of statement would be good wouldn't it

So camera is still shipping even with issue? Right?

So camera is still shipping even with issue? Right?

as BMD seems to be looking into this issue in silent mode nobody knows.

[My dealer told me that after first arrival the number of cameras seem to reduce
which might be a sign that they only ship what's already in distribution. But again,
as long as BMD states nothing else it's all wild guess. And to be honest, the
longer they keep silent the more I loose faith that this issue could be fixed
easily)

So camera is still shipping even with issue? Right?

as BMD seems to be looking into this issue in silent mode nobody knows.

Maybe the Pocket customers are not the priority at the moment...

Their technicians already know at least whether it's a soft- or hardware issue since days. So staying silent might mean bad news or it's really just their lacking communication skills.
Remember Stu Maschwitz...we all want them to be successful after all.

Their technicians already know at least whether it's a soft- or hardware issue since days. So staying silent might mean bad news or it's really just their lacking communication skills.
Remember Stu Maschwitz...we all want them to be successful after all.

What does not make sense is that if it's a hardware issue, the sooner they act the better for all of us, including them. OTOH if it is software/firmware issue maybe they are trying to figure out a solution before state something. Uncertain days.... I'm about to cancel my second pre-order....

What's going to happen to all the road tested but returned 'pockets'.
When I get mine, I hope it isn't second hand.

If that happens to me I will be making waves with the Consumer Protection, media and other relevant bodies. I, for one will not be ripped off because of poor quality testing.

Well at least we all have the Digital Bolex to look forward to and of whom have been very open with development.

Well at least we all have the Digital Bolex to look forward to and of whom have been very open with development.

What's happening with that? Wasn't it expected around the same time as the BMCC?

I asked EMEA support today about conclusions or plans because I have to decide whether I revoke the deal and send the camera back. They answered:

Thankyou for your feedback with this case, it has been most helpful.
As stated in my previous email, the case has now been forwarded onto our development team, and we are currently waiting on word from the Australian offices.
Sorry for any inconvenience
Regards,
NAME
Technical Support Consultant
Blackmagic Support EMEA

as wise as before :-/

more or less the same response I got from BMD US.

Well, I just canceled my pre-order. I'm going to wait to see how this pans out. A little disappointing, but I don't have money to burn and I don't need another pia. I can wait.

Well, I just canceled my pre-order. I'm going to wait to see how this pans out. A little disappointing, but I don't have money to burn and I don't need another pia. I can wait.

What's going to happen to all the road tested but returned 'pockets'.
When I get mine, I hope it isn't second hand.

If that happens to me I will be making waves with the Consumer Protection, media and other relevant bodies. I, for one will not be ripped off because of poor quality testing.

Not that there is even a remote possibility of them sending you a refurbished camera posing as new (something of an illegality at least here in the US), but even if there was a threat of you being shipped a reconditioned product, why would you still risk making a purchase? If you're that worried about the camera, dump your pre-order and find a better solution.

I went out last night at dusk with my Pocket, after upgrading firmware, using a 45mm Panny/Leica, I could not get "blooming issue" just normal "clipped" highlights same shape as the light source, or reflection. Shot headlights of oncoming cars, same, normal "flare". Then I shot with 17mm Tokina, got some round white lights on distant cars, but became "normal" looking closer up, similar to the BMCC test footage on VanNess in SF previously posted. But, when I used the SLRM 12mm, the lights did "bloom" out, into white "orbs" and highlights did not look as with previous two lenses (all three on same shot). Going to test 11-16 Tokina tonight to see if it is specific lenses, or difference between long focal length vs wide angles causing blooming in combo with the sensor.

The Leica DG 45mm shots looked very nice, I got overexposed "glare" highlights, but they looked "normal shape, just clipped, not larger than they should,have been. I will try to post sample up later today.

This would explain why some shots have issue and others do not, if lens is a factor in the cause. I do not have other Lumix or Olympus lenses, just the two Panny Leica's. but will also ck out a Ziess ZF 25mm tonight.

Thanks, thats very helpful info! I have heaps of lenses and will do some testing tonight.

Interesting...With the train lights, I used a Vivtar series one 19-35mm lens with nikon to m4/3 adapter.
I will try the olympus 14-42mm m4/3 lens later.

I went out last night at dusk with my Pocket, after upgrading firmware, using a 45mm Panny/Leica, I could not get "blooming issue" just normal "clipped" highlights same shape as the light source, or reflection. Shot headlights of oncoming cars, same, normal "flare". Then I shot with 17mm Tokina, got some round white lights on distant cars, but became "normal" looking closer up, similar to the BMCC test footage on VanNess in SF previously posted. But, when I used the SLRM 12mm, the lights did "bloom" out, into white "orbs" and highlights did not look as with previous two lenses (all three on same shot). Going to test 11-16 Tokina tonight to see if it is specific lenses, or difference between long focal length vs wide angles causing blooming in combo with the sensor.

The Leica DG 45mm shots looked very nice, I got overexposed "glare" highlights, but they looked "normal shape, just clipped, not larger than they should,have been. I will try to post sample up later today.

This would explain why some shots have issue and others do not, if lens is a factor in the cause. I do not have other Lumix or Olympus lenses, just the two Panny Leica's. but will also ck out a Ziess ZF 25mm tonight.

can you show us please?

I can't believe I'm in the position of laying down money for a camera which I don't know WHEN will arrive and don't know IF it will work properly when it does.

Andrew, I share with you this incredulous feeling of uncertainty.

Yeah, I cancelled my 4K preorder because we hadn't seen any footage. I kept my Pocket order before we knew of the orb problem. So if the 4K debuts and looks great, I'm going to feel a little put out.

I cancelled my M4/3 BMCC order partly because of the Pocket and its active mount, yet similar sensor.

Partly however it was because I was fed up of waiting 9 months for a camera.