ETTR and ISO values Comparison

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Tom

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ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostFri Sep 27, 2013 4:04 pm

Many people recommend exposing to the right in raw mode on the BMCC.

Sometimes when doing this, one finds the screen on the camera to be too washed out to be useful for composing your shot - in other words, the scene is exposed so far to the right without clipping, that the screen is almost just solid white.

A solution to this is to lower the ISO value, as it will make the on screen image darker, but because its just meta data, the camera is still recording at ISO 800 - so no data is lost.

A few people suggested that doing this would in fact change the final out come of the image, and that lower ISO values also change the way the colour or luma data is represented - and so might not be a good process after all.

I decided to try and find out for myself if this was apparent.

I while ago I shared this image:
http://tommajerski.com/publicimages/iso_example_1.jpg

Which I claimed showed no real difference at all - but it was suggested that once I applied a LUT or grade to the image, the difference would be more apparent.

So today I created this:

(12MB jpeg - better off downloading and then you can zoom around the image better)

http://tommajerski.com/publicimages/ISO-comparison.jpg

This image shows the same shot, filmed at all the various ISO values, with the EXACT same grade applied to each one, (the only change was in the Raw tab on Resolve, where I balanced the exposure value).

In the shot, I ETTR by 1 stop.

The grade consisted of 3 serial nodes:
Node 1: slight shadow boost, slight highlight reduction
Node 2: Alexa REC 709 LUT
Node 3: Film simulation LUT

The image shows the entire frame of the video in its full 2400x1350 resolution.


From this, I cannot see any difference in the images, and unless proven otherwise - I conclude that it is incorrect to say that lowering the ISO value will change the outcome of the colour and luma or SNR when ETTR.

The only exception to this is ISO 1600 -where it has been confirmed that in this situation, more bits are allocated to the shadow areas of the curve that's encoded (essentially a slightly different LOG curve) - but this is not visible in my test due to it being a relatively bright scene. (Thanks JB for the clarification)



I hope this test is of some use to others.
Last edited by Tom on Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom Majerski
Colourist at Tracks and Layers
http://www.Tracksandlayers.com
Motion Graphics - Colour Grading - VFX

matthijsliethof

Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostFri Sep 27, 2013 4:17 pm

Thanks a bunch Tom! No really, thanks:smile:

Sent from my Android Phone
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Aaron Scheiner

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostFri Sep 27, 2013 4:47 pm

Wow Tom... this is very cool... I don't see any differences between ISOs (not even 1600) and I've looked really closely. I guess this settles the debate then, ISO has no effect on RAW output on the BMCC.

Thanks for the effort :)
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Patrick Finnegan

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostFri Sep 27, 2013 4:49 pm

great work Tom
one question:

1) I am assuming this only applies to shooting raw? In Prores the differing iso values would have an effect on the final image?


thanks for the work
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Tom

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostFri Sep 27, 2013 5:05 pm

Patrick Finnegan wrote:great work Tom
one question:

1) I am assuming this only applies to shooting raw? In Prores the differing iso values would have an effect on the final image?


thanks for the work


Yes, very much so. in Prores or DNxHD modes, the digital gain is applied in camera and then the data is compressed.
Tom Majerski
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http://www.Tracksandlayers.com
Motion Graphics - Colour Grading - VFX
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSat Sep 28, 2013 3:30 pm

Tom,
Slightly OT and don't want to cause the thread to drift ( too much) but could I trouble you for a brief explanation of ETTR? I kind of get it but not completely.
Thanks!
Steve Holmlund
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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSat Sep 28, 2013 4:19 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:Tom,
Slightly OT and don't want to cause the thread to drift ( too much) but could I trouble you for a brief explanation of ETTR? I kind of get it but not completely.
Thanks!


There is an awesome video done by Tom about that in Vimeo.
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Tom

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSat Sep 28, 2013 6:08 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:Tom,
Slightly OT and don't want to cause the thread to drift ( too much) but could I trouble you for a brief explanation of ETTR? I kind of get it but not completely.
Thanks!



Here is a video I made explaining just that :-)

Tom Majerski
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Motion Graphics - Colour Grading - VFX
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Will Tejeda

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSat Sep 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:Tom,
Slightly OT and don't want to cause the thread to drift ( too much) but could I trouble you for a brief explanation of ETTR? I kind of get it but not completely.
Thanks!


Here is Tom's ETTR Video
Will Tejeda
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Thor Knudsen

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSat Sep 28, 2013 8:28 pm

Tom wrote:
Steve Holmlund wrote:Tom,
Slightly OT and don't want to cause the thread to drift ( too much) but could I trouble you for a brief explanation of ETTR? I kind of get it but not completely.
Thanks!



Here is a video I made explaining just that :-)



That's great video Tom, and made so simple that even an amateur such as myself could understand it! :)
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSun Sep 29, 2013 1:04 am

Thanks Tom! Appreciate the link to your video.
Steve
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Tom

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSun Sep 29, 2013 5:57 pm




Just went even further!

So bright that I had to stop it down -0.5 at iso 200!

Still absolutely ZERO clipping.


Which means from ISO 800 it was stopped down -2.5 stops!

At 1600, it was brought down -3.5 stops!

I still cannot detect any colour shift.
Tom Majerski
Colourist at Tracks and Layers
http://www.Tracksandlayers.com
Motion Graphics - Colour Grading - VFX
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CaptainHook

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostMon Sep 30, 2013 3:57 am

Sorry for the cross-posting..

Just got back from Sydney and had a chance to look at this.. Thanks again Tom.

I'm still seeing differences in the waveforms.. Like last time i grabbed each waveform and did a difference on them to the "control" (no ev shift) and for each stop the differences become increasingly more obvious which lines up to 'theory':

Image

Also, your 2nd example (the one with 2 stops) makes a great case for never using iso1600 as you can see the highlights of your shirt on your shoulder have gone to 'poop'. :P
I appreciate all the hard work, but i think i still need to do a test in a completely controlled environment (no people movement, no blinds on windows shifting, no outdoor information moving in the wind, etc) with high dynamic range to be satisfied. And a response from BMD on my question about if the ASA curves from the camera are available/applied in Resolve. :)
**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**
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dimi

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSun Mar 02, 2014 4:30 pm

Awesome, this is very nice to know!

How big of an effect you think ISO 800 vs 400 will have shooting ProRes?
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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSun Mar 02, 2014 8:52 pm

Hi Tom. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Kofa

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSun Mar 02, 2014 8:58 pm

Once again Tom, thanks for taking the time to conduct these tests.
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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostFri Jul 18, 2014 6:25 am

Just adding my thanks too Tom
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Christopher Cox

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostSun Jul 20, 2014 8:37 am

If I lower the ISO in camera (from ASA 1600 on my BMPCC) wouldn't I have to then raise the exposure in post?
Wielding a Pocket Cinema Camera from a wheelchair.
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Tom

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Re: ETTR and ISO values Comparison

PostMon Jul 21, 2014 1:32 pm

Christopher Cox wrote:If I lower the ISO in camera (from ASA 1600 on my BMPCC) wouldn't I have to then raise the exposure in post?


It depends on what the scene is rated at. Or whether you counter it with a different iris or shutter speed
Tom Majerski
Colourist at Tracks and Layers
http://www.Tracksandlayers.com
Motion Graphics - Colour Grading - VFX

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