Afterglow

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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Jesuan Soriano

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 2:18 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Jesuan wrote:Hi John!!

Totally awesome. It's clean and perfect and very filmic...dying to get mine..
One question. Did you fix rolling shutter in post or is it as it comes out of the camera?? on that steadicam shot looks quite good, I thought it was going to be worse.

Cheers!! BMD FTW!!


There's no fix at all.

This is exactly what was shot, just with a simple grade applied.

The rolling shutter is there if you want to go looking for it, but it rarely gets in the way of getting great images.

jb



Thanks John, the first thing I did when I watche the edit was looking for RS, and I didn't find it, especially on the steadicam shot where the panning is fast. I see no trouble to this camera, even crop factor doesn't seem to be really hard to avoid. Thanks again.

Js
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Denver Riddle

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 3:18 pm

Thanks John and Grant!

I'm really impressed with the enthusiasm and support you've
shown toward your products and user base!

That's evidenced by enlisting a top DOP in the development
of the camera and here we have the CEO of a big company
taking the time to answer questions here on the forum.

What you're doing is revolutionary! I'm looking forward to
the future! :D
Denver Riddle
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Your Twitter and Facebook links are not working!
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Michael Millichamp

Test grade

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 4:22 pm

Hey guys!

First wanted to say a thanks to John for posting all of these clips. It definitely gives us something to have fun with while we wait.

I just got DaVinci 9 Beta and I LOVE it.

Here are some test grades I did real quick. Maybe 10 minutes on each.
Attachments
Web-Export-2.jpg
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Web-Export-1.jpg
Web-Export-1.jpg (205.32 KiB) Viewed 28868 times
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 4:37 pm

Thank you Blackmagic, thank you John Brawley for all your hard work working the camera up to where it is right now. This is an evolution in film making, it's revolutionary can't believe all our demands of a Raw, Proress 10bit 422HQ Cam have been answered with this camera. Never mind what people said about the internal battery, never mind what they said about the lens mount / crop factor, never mind what they said about the high frame rates to me it's a none factor this is as good as it get's at that price range. The dynamic range, the filmic texture, motion cadence of this camera is simply breathtaking I've worked with Alexa footage before very similar this is a gift. John great footage & your team as well did a wonderful job, all I'm going to say is get ready a storm of orders Blackmagic people are about to jump ship I'm all in!!! bravo guy's well deserve

Blackmagic = Outside the box thinking & and boundaries breakers.
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Re: Test grade

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 4:40 pm

Michael Millichamp wrote:Hey guys!

First wanted to say a thanks to John for posting all of these clips. It definitely gives us something to have fun with while we wait.

I just got DaVinci 9 Beta and I LOVE it.

Here are some test grades I did real quick. Maybe 10 minutes on each.


Nice Grade.. What version of Davinci 9 are you using? for some reason Davinci 9b3 my clips turn to green and they disappear when played can't preview clips..
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Congratulations- the RAW data looks excellent. We've been working with RAW stills since 2002 and it's such a godsend to have the control that RAW editing provides in cinematography. Finally.

It's a wild and wooly time- support for RAW editing of stills in 2002 wasn't very good, even by Adobe. Here we are again. They're seriously dropping the ball on support for CinemaDNG in CS6. What's the skinny from Blackmagic's point of view regarding support for CinemaDNG in the CS6 suite? Has Adobe shown any interest in actually supporting this, or are they still dragging their feet? We've tried to install the CS 5/CS 5.5 CinemaDNG importer plugins into CS6, but they don't seem to work. Lightroom is taking the DNGs just fine- we just can't export them in a high bit depth format that CS6 will accept. Such a bummer.

Attached are a couple of grades as a test- the 'as shot' frame on top, a heavy color grade with hue shifts, and a split tone (scroll image or download it to see stacked grading examples). All done in Lightroom and exported as both DNGs and uncompressed TIFF sequences. Now if Adobe would get its act together wrt/CinemaDNG support in CS6...

20120822_grades.jpg
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Denver Riddle

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 5:49 pm

Kazuni wrote:Your Twitter and Facebook links are not working!

I'm not sure exactly why, may be a bug in the forum.
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Denver Riddle

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 5:56 pm

Here's a summary of my graded clips. What a fun activity!

Shot3_graded.jpg
Modern Look
Shot3_graded.jpg (753.67 KiB) Viewed 28832 times

shot1_graded.jpg
Subtle Bleach Bypass
shot1_graded.jpg (717.8 KiB) Viewed 28832 times

shot2_graded.jpg
Day for Night
shot2_graded.jpg (693.93 KiB) Viewed 28832 times
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 6:01 pm

Thanks John for your efforts, you wrote that the only lighting you used in the Pool Shark shoot is the single Kino Diva set and the practicals in the room, but I see HMI in the AFTERGLOW shoot, so I assume that these two shoots are unrelated.
Thanks
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Brian@202020

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 6:54 pm

John is the new 2400 x 1350 RAW resolution the final resolution? If so it seems the camera is now 2.4K correct?
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 7:08 pm

Hey

Thanks for this it's amazing... Do you mind me asking what rig you are using.. Looks really interesting!

Thanks!
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marktierneyfilm

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 7:27 pm

Very interesting files, and congrats on all the work/effort so far. You've done a great job John.
I'm so tempted its incredible. Only reason I hesitate is lens cropping (drove me mad on the AF101) and I already have other cameras.
This is my version of the frame from the CP2 using my 'commercial' grade from Lightroom. I found the lens differences very interesting. Also, how can you not love those Optimos? They are just fantastic.
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marktierneyfilm

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 7:45 pm

My "make it look like we shot it on a RED" look:
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 8:58 pm

nickdale wrote:Hey

Thanks for this it's amazing... Do you mind me asking what rig you are using.. Looks really interesting!

Thanks!


I have one from Viewfactor and the one in the photos from this shoot is from Bebob.de.

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:12 pm

Brian@202020 wrote:John is the new 2400 x 1350 RAW resolution the final resolution? If so it seems the camera is now 2.4K correct?


it's probably one for the BMD guys to answer but I think it's to do with getting a nicer 1920x1080 re-scale.

jb
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rick.lang

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:26 pm

The new 2400x1350 size does provide the identical aspect ratio of 1920x1080 i.e. 1.777778.

2432x1366 ratio was something over 1.80 so not a good match for HD video.

Now if they changed the published 2432x1366 to 2432x1368 they would have also achieved the same 1.777778 aspect ratio without reducing RAW image size. So there must be more to it than simply using a better aspect ratio with the new RAW recordings at 2400x1350. I'm sure BMD will clarify. It would appear the revised BMD webpages still say RAW recording is 2432x1366 so a little confusing.

Edit: On BMCuser, Jeff notes the actual RAW file images are still 2432x1366 and Deggen observes the Resolve debayer appears to create 2400x1350 debayered images from that. But Brian@202020 maintains the downloaded images are really 2400x1350. However I'm not clear if the downloaded images came straight from the camera or were passed to Resolve first. I think Grant Petty posted a comment on the downloads I'll try to find...

Edit: Here's what Grant said in an earlier post in this thread:
"These clips are direct from the camera with no post production or any modification at all. Because they are RAW, then your getting everything direct from the sensor without any processing.

The only thing your seeing if your working on them in Resolve is the header of the files has the white balance info etc so Resolve will setup the look and do the de bayer and color processing for DNG.

But otherwise these files are direct from the camera sensor.

Grant"

Perhaps this thread on MBCuser will eventually document a clear explanation:
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?7 ... nged/page2
Last edited by rick.lang on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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aygie

Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:35 pm

marktierneyfilm wrote:My "make it look like we shot it on a RED" look:


I think both of your gradings were very, very nice. Each had they're own distinct style. Well done and thank you.
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Brian@202020

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:35 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Brian@202020 wrote:John is the new 2400 x 1350 RAW resolution the final resolution? If so it seems the camera is now 2.4K correct?


it's probably one for the BMD guys to answer but I think it's to do with getting a nicer 1920x1080 re-scale.

jb


Thats what I figured, thanks John. By the way the footage looks amazing.
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 9:40 pm

rick.lang wrote:However I'm not clear if the downloaded images came straight from the camera or were passed to Resolve first. I think Grant Petty posted a comment on the downloads I'll try to find...
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?7 ... nged/page2


The downloaded images are straight from camera. They are un-doctored and not altered.

jb
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vri

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Camera rig

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:23 pm

Who is the manufacture of the camera rig (bracket, frame, rod holder) that you are using?
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John Brawley

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Re: Camera rig

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:53 pm

vri wrote:Who is the manufacture of the camera rig (bracket, frame, rod holder) that you are using?


Bebob.

http://www.bebob.de/Rigs-and-Cages/STARTER-KIT-BM.html

jb
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bunte farben

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:56 pm

Is there going to be a PL mount option? How did you get that Optimo on the camera?

thanks!

Florian Stadler, DP
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marktierneyfilm

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:32 pm

You can get the Optimos in a ZF mount. I imagine he has a ZF mount version with an EF adapter.
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:33 pm

bunte farben wrote:Is there going to be a PL mount option? How did you get that Optimo on the camera?

thanks!



Hi Florian. Good to see you here.

Angenieux make an EF mount adaptor for most of the Optimo lens, including the 24-290 ! They are actually quite inexpensive so go talk to your local rental house ?

JB
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marktierneyfilm

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:34 pm

Ah, they do an EF mount now as well? Perfect. I've used the F and PL only.
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:39 pm

marktierneyfilm wrote:Ah, they do an EF mount now as well? Perfect. I've used the F and PL only.



http://www.angenieux.com/file/datasheet ... uxDSLR.pdf

Zeiss also make one for the LWZ zoom.

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:40 pm

gingerfinger wrote:Grant, are there any assignable function buttons?


At the moment, there's no way to assign functions to the buttons.

The menu of the camera is incredibly simple.

jb
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:53 pm

Brian@202020 wrote:John is the new 2400 x 1350 RAW resolution the final resolution? If so it seems the camera is now 2.4K correct?


Hi Brian@202020

The RAW bayered image size is 2432 x 1366 which gets debayered to 2400 x 1350. There is a slight crop to get rid of the edges of the image because when you are debayering, the very boundary of the frame will not have enough surrounding information to be accurately debayered and will need to be discarded. This is a pretty standard procedure for debayering images.

The DNG has a DefaultCropSize tag which is explained as:

Raw images often store extra pixels around the edges of the final image. These extra pixels help prevent interpolation artifacts near the edges of the final image.
DefaultCropSize specifies the size of the final image area, in raw image coordinates (i.e., before the DefaultScale has been applied).
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 1:46 am

John Brawley wrote:
gingerfinger wrote:Grant, are there any assignable function buttons?


At the moment, there's no way to assign functions to the buttons.

The menu of the camera is incredibly simple.

jb


Yeah it looks it from everything I've seen, I just always like the convenience of one touch functions. I take it there's not much navigating involved through different submenus?
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Luis Otero

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 1:58 am

I like how cinematic the images look manipulated within Resolve V9. However, I find the last two shots (4 & 5) to be extremely noisy. Was it an artistic decision, or camera limitation?

Luis
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:16 am

gingerfinger wrote:
Yeah it looks it from everything I've seen, I just always like the convenience of one touch functions. I take it there's not much navigating involved through different submenus?


There are no real sub menus. There are tabs and you can choose most of the camera's options within two touches. It's really quick.

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:23 am

Luis Otero wrote:I like how cinematic the images look manipulated within Resolve V9. However, I find the last two shots (4 & 5) to be extremely noisy. Was it an artistic decision, or camera limitation?

Luis


"Extremely noisy " ? I think there is some noise there but I don't find it offensive personally and I wouldn't characterise it as extreme either. Compared to which other camera ?

With a RAW workflow that you have with this camera, you get a very unprocessed image and that means you also get some noise. On other dSLR's they do a lot of noise reduction before you get to see the pictures. You can do this in Resolve if you want to reduce the noise and there are also other really good NR applications around like Neat Video.

I think you can even download a Neat demo for nix. Maybe you can try it out with the DNGs and see if it's to your taste ?

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 4:06 am

I'm really excited for this camera, and I love the images that are coming from this camera. Thanks John for letting us know how you pulled off each of these scenes.
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:52 am

John can you tell me what about sound if you are recording RAW footage? It is on some different folder or some where else? What about sych? And one more thing, If you will be able to put some new footage, can you upload the ProRes or DNxHD at 1920 x 1080? Thanks :)
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:16 am

Don't forget, on the full version of DaVinci Resolve, included with your BMD cinema camera, and assuming you are using CUDA GPUs you can add just a little noise reduction if you think the night shots could do with a little. I played with that today and the ProRes renders looked great.
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:58 am

muchskywoker wrote:John can you tell me what about sound if you are recording RAW footage? It is on some different folder or some where else? What about sych? And one more thing, If you will be able to put some new footage, can you upload the ProRes or DNxHD at 1920 x 1080? Thanks :)


Can't do any ProRes just yet.

Sound is recorded and stored in each folder but not included with these demo shots. It's recorded as a .WAV file.

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:26 pm

any advice on how to get the images to look as 'RAW' as possible?
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:
muchskywoker wrote:John can you tell me what about sound if you are recording RAW footage? It is on some different folder or some where else? What about sych? And one more thing, If you will be able to put some new footage, can you upload the ProRes or DNxHD at 1920 x 1080? Thanks :)


Can't do any ProRes just yet.

Sound is recorded and stored in each folder but not included with these demo shots. It's recorded as a .WAV file.

jb



John - can you give some more colour on the sound. How does it compare to a 5dmkii (as a low benchmark) or a H2n (as a high benchmark)? Is there enough sensitivity to use an NTG-2 or do we need to use DSLR mic such as Rode VM Pro? Many Thanks!!
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:54 pm

I just tried using the 'black magic cinema camera film to REC 709' LUT on my Resolve which looks very odd - is there a way get back to the Log or totally RAW camera output?
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 3:14 pm

I think the LUT you mention is meant for ProRes or DNxHD files with "Film" encoding. Raw output is what you get with dng files, but I don't know if it is pure digitized sensor data or already mapped somehow. In dng file it should be in XYZ color space I believe? Maybe someone knowledgeable can shed some light on this, are the sensor values scene-linearized and converted to XYZ before saving?
I do stuff.
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 5:58 pm

Hi all, I've been caught up in the excited murmuring I have been hearing about this camera and come over to have a look at the material I was told was on here and boy was it worth it. Impressive. Could someone tell me if being in the UK I could still pre-order one?
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Gerard wrote:Hi all, I've been caught up in the excited murmuring I have been hearing about this camera and come over to have a look at the material I was told was on here and boy was it worth it. Impressive. Could someone tell me if being in the UK I could still pre-order one?


You could def still pre-order one. The queue being what it is, I doubt you'd get one in the first batch though.
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks Joel, would there be anyone on here who could give me an idea of the time expected between initial launch and a second batch? A rough estimate would do. I have the perfect job for this camera coming up in December,am I being to optimistic to think there may be some more available by then??
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 7:10 pm

Gerard wrote:Thanks Joel, would there be anyone on here who could give me an idea of the time expected between initial launch and a second batch?


Only Blackmagic Design can answer that and they're concentrating on getting the first round of deliveries out the door and hopefully filling the earliest (brave) pre-orders. It would seem reasonable to assume you'll see a camera this year for the second or third phases but BMD isn't likely to guarantee anything because, to be fair, if this camera takes off like I suspect, they'll be backordered for several months. Ergo, if you want the camera in December, preorder quickly and cross your fingers. Someone has suggested ordering from a smaller shop that doesn't have a hundred orders in front of you in the queue, may be a faster way to get the camera. But no one knows if that's true because it's possible BMD could fill orders FIFO if the orders they receive are time-stamped. Good luck.
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 8:09 pm

John Brawley wrote:..."Extremely noisy " ? I think there is some noise there but I don't find it offensive personally and I wouldn't characterise it as extreme either. Compared to which other camera ?

With a RAW workflow that you have with this camera, you get a very unprocessed image and that means you also get some noise.
jb


I always color grade starting with a Log images, so I know what to expect from a RAW image viewed via Resolve. I am comparing the images with Red cameras, either One or Epic.

Yes, I still think it is extremely noisy (those 2 shots).. Moreover, the orange colors in the background (short wall) in shot 4 looks almost bleeding. For a 13 stop claim-camera, I would not expect that at all.

Luis
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jameswicks

Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 8:38 pm

The clips play fine until you do a simple grade, then Resolve crashes every time.
I added a power window, and tried to do a track. Crash. Every time. Every clip.

I did an Alexa and Red project yesterday, no problem.
2k .dpx today, no problem.
DNG, problem.
Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon.

System:
Resolve v9 beta 3
Mac 2x2.66 GHz 6-Core Intel Zeon
24GB Ram
DaVinci Control Surface
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:14 pm

John Brawley wrote:Just for you, here's a shot with a CP on.

Image

jb


Thanks for that. I'm now looking forward to taking this camera on a shoot!
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:42 pm

jameswicks wrote:The clips play fine until you do a simple grade, then Resolve crashes every time.
I added a power window, and tried to do a track. Crash. Every time. Every clip.

I did an Alexa and Red project yesterday, no problem.
2k .dpx today, no problem.
DNG, problem.
Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon.

System:
Resolve v9 beta 3
Mac 2x2.66 GHz 6-Core Intel Zeon
24GB Ram
DaVinci Control Surface


You should probably ask about this in the Resolve forum.

jb
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:51 pm

Luis Otero wrote:
I always color grade starting with a Log images, so I know what to expect from a RAW image viewed via Resolve. I am comparing the images with Red cameras, either One or Epic.

Yes, I still think it is extremely noisy (those 2 shots).. Moreover, the orange colors in the background (short wall) in shot 4 looks almost bleeding. For a 13 stop claim-camera, I would not expect that at all.

Luis


Cinema DNG RAW and LOG images of course are two different things.

I have shot many hours of broadcast TV with RED, RED MX and EPIC cameras in low light and I would say they are comparable to the noise of these cameras.

You do of course have more resolution.

To characterise the BMCC as "extremely noisy" in comparison to RED or RED EPIC is completely different to my experience, and I think you'll find the vast majority of other opinions.

If you are sensitive to noise perhaps there are other cameras that perform better in ultra low light like the C300.

jb
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
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