Afterglow

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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vri

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Camera rig

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:23 pm

Who is the manufacture of the camera rig (bracket, frame, rod holder) that you are using?
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John Brawley

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Re: Camera rig

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:53 pm

vri wrote:Who is the manufacture of the camera rig (bracket, frame, rod holder) that you are using?


Bebob.

http://www.bebob.de/Rigs-and-Cages/STARTER-KIT-BM.html

jb
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bunte farben

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 10:56 pm

Is there going to be a PL mount option? How did you get that Optimo on the camera?

thanks!

Florian Stadler, DP
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marktierneyfilm

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:32 pm

You can get the Optimos in a ZF mount. I imagine he has a ZF mount version with an EF adapter.
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:33 pm

bunte farben wrote:Is there going to be a PL mount option? How did you get that Optimo on the camera?

thanks!



Hi Florian. Good to see you here.

Angenieux make an EF mount adaptor for most of the Optimo lens, including the 24-290 ! They are actually quite inexpensive so go talk to your local rental house ?

JB
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marktierneyfilm

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:34 pm

Ah, they do an EF mount now as well? Perfect. I've used the F and PL only.
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:39 pm

marktierneyfilm wrote:Ah, they do an EF mount now as well? Perfect. I've used the F and PL only.



http://www.angenieux.com/file/datasheet ... uxDSLR.pdf

Zeiss also make one for the LWZ zoom.

jb
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:40 pm

gingerfinger wrote:Grant, are there any assignable function buttons?


At the moment, there's no way to assign functions to the buttons.

The menu of the camera is incredibly simple.

jb
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Afterglow

PostWed Aug 22, 2012 11:53 pm

Brian@202020 wrote:John is the new 2400 x 1350 RAW resolution the final resolution? If so it seems the camera is now 2.4K correct?


Hi Brian@202020

The RAW bayered image size is 2432 x 1366 which gets debayered to 2400 x 1350. There is a slight crop to get rid of the edges of the image because when you are debayering, the very boundary of the frame will not have enough surrounding information to be accurately debayered and will need to be discarded. This is a pretty standard procedure for debayering images.

The DNG has a DefaultCropSize tag which is explained as:

Raw images often store extra pixels around the edges of the final image. These extra pixels help prevent interpolation artifacts near the edges of the final image.
DefaultCropSize specifies the size of the final image area, in raw image coordinates (i.e., before the DefaultScale has been applied).
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Joel Crane

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 1:46 am

John Brawley wrote:
gingerfinger wrote:Grant, are there any assignable function buttons?


At the moment, there's no way to assign functions to the buttons.

The menu of the camera is incredibly simple.

jb


Yeah it looks it from everything I've seen, I just always like the convenience of one touch functions. I take it there's not much navigating involved through different submenus?
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Luis Otero

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 1:58 am

I like how cinematic the images look manipulated within Resolve V9. However, I find the last two shots (4 & 5) to be extremely noisy. Was it an artistic decision, or camera limitation?

Luis
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:16 am

gingerfinger wrote:
Yeah it looks it from everything I've seen, I just always like the convenience of one touch functions. I take it there's not much navigating involved through different submenus?


There are no real sub menus. There are tabs and you can choose most of the camera's options within two touches. It's really quick.

jb
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 2:23 am

Luis Otero wrote:I like how cinematic the images look manipulated within Resolve V9. However, I find the last two shots (4 & 5) to be extremely noisy. Was it an artistic decision, or camera limitation?

Luis


"Extremely noisy " ? I think there is some noise there but I don't find it offensive personally and I wouldn't characterise it as extreme either. Compared to which other camera ?

With a RAW workflow that you have with this camera, you get a very unprocessed image and that means you also get some noise. On other dSLR's they do a lot of noise reduction before you get to see the pictures. You can do this in Resolve if you want to reduce the noise and there are also other really good NR applications around like Neat Video.

I think you can even download a Neat demo for nix. Maybe you can try it out with the DNGs and see if it's to your taste ?

jb
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kylebrodeur

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 4:06 am

I'm really excited for this camera, and I love the images that are coming from this camera. Thanks John for letting us know how you pulled off each of these scenes.
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muchskywoker

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:52 am

John can you tell me what about sound if you are recording RAW footage? It is on some different folder or some where else? What about sych? And one more thing, If you will be able to put some new footage, can you upload the ProRes or DNxHD at 1920 x 1080? Thanks :)
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:16 am

Don't forget, on the full version of DaVinci Resolve, included with your BMD cinema camera, and assuming you are using CUDA GPUs you can add just a little noise reduction if you think the night shots could do with a little. I played with that today and the ProRes renders looked great.
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:58 am

muchskywoker wrote:John can you tell me what about sound if you are recording RAW footage? It is on some different folder or some where else? What about sych? And one more thing, If you will be able to put some new footage, can you upload the ProRes or DNxHD at 1920 x 1080? Thanks :)


Can't do any ProRes just yet.

Sound is recorded and stored in each folder but not included with these demo shots. It's recorded as a .WAV file.

jb
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turner37

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:26 pm

any advice on how to get the images to look as 'RAW' as possible?
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mario

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:
muchskywoker wrote:John can you tell me what about sound if you are recording RAW footage? It is on some different folder or some where else? What about sych? And one more thing, If you will be able to put some new footage, can you upload the ProRes or DNxHD at 1920 x 1080? Thanks :)


Can't do any ProRes just yet.

Sound is recorded and stored in each folder but not included with these demo shots. It's recorded as a .WAV file.

jb



John - can you give some more colour on the sound. How does it compare to a 5dmkii (as a low benchmark) or a H2n (as a high benchmark)? Is there enough sensitivity to use an NTG-2 or do we need to use DSLR mic such as Rode VM Pro? Many Thanks!!
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turner37

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 12:54 pm

I just tried using the 'black magic cinema camera film to REC 709' LUT on my Resolve which looks very odd - is there a way get back to the Log or totally RAW camera output?
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 3:14 pm

I think the LUT you mention is meant for ProRes or DNxHD files with "Film" encoding. Raw output is what you get with dng files, but I don't know if it is pure digitized sensor data or already mapped somehow. In dng file it should be in XYZ color space I believe? Maybe someone knowledgeable can shed some light on this, are the sensor values scene-linearized and converted to XYZ before saving?
I do stuff.
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Gerard

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 5:58 pm

Hi all, I've been caught up in the excited murmuring I have been hearing about this camera and come over to have a look at the material I was told was on here and boy was it worth it. Impressive. Could someone tell me if being in the UK I could still pre-order one?
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Joel Crane

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Gerard wrote:Hi all, I've been caught up in the excited murmuring I have been hearing about this camera and come over to have a look at the material I was told was on here and boy was it worth it. Impressive. Could someone tell me if being in the UK I could still pre-order one?


You could def still pre-order one. The queue being what it is, I doubt you'd get one in the first batch though.
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Gerard

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks Joel, would there be anyone on here who could give me an idea of the time expected between initial launch and a second batch? A rough estimate would do. I have the perfect job for this camera coming up in December,am I being to optimistic to think there may be some more available by then??
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rick.lang

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 7:10 pm

Gerard wrote:Thanks Joel, would there be anyone on here who could give me an idea of the time expected between initial launch and a second batch?


Only Blackmagic Design can answer that and they're concentrating on getting the first round of deliveries out the door and hopefully filling the earliest (brave) pre-orders. It would seem reasonable to assume you'll see a camera this year for the second or third phases but BMD isn't likely to guarantee anything because, to be fair, if this camera takes off like I suspect, they'll be backordered for several months. Ergo, if you want the camera in December, preorder quickly and cross your fingers. Someone has suggested ordering from a smaller shop that doesn't have a hundred orders in front of you in the queue, may be a faster way to get the camera. But no one knows if that's true because it's possible BMD could fill orders FIFO if the orders they receive are time-stamped. Good luck.
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Luis Otero

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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 8:09 pm

John Brawley wrote:..."Extremely noisy " ? I think there is some noise there but I don't find it offensive personally and I wouldn't characterise it as extreme either. Compared to which other camera ?

With a RAW workflow that you have with this camera, you get a very unprocessed image and that means you also get some noise.
jb


I always color grade starting with a Log images, so I know what to expect from a RAW image viewed via Resolve. I am comparing the images with Red cameras, either One or Epic.

Yes, I still think it is extremely noisy (those 2 shots).. Moreover, the orange colors in the background (short wall) in shot 4 looks almost bleeding. For a 13 stop claim-camera, I would not expect that at all.

Luis
Luis

jameswicks

Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 8:38 pm

The clips play fine until you do a simple grade, then Resolve crashes every time.
I added a power window, and tried to do a track. Crash. Every time. Every clip.

I did an Alexa and Red project yesterday, no problem.
2k .dpx today, no problem.
DNG, problem.
Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon.

System:
Resolve v9 beta 3
Mac 2x2.66 GHz 6-Core Intel Zeon
24GB Ram
DaVinci Control Surface
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 9:14 pm

John Brawley wrote:Just for you, here's a shot with a CP on.

Image

jb


Thanks for that. I'm now looking forward to taking this camera on a shoot!
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:42 pm

jameswicks wrote:The clips play fine until you do a simple grade, then Resolve crashes every time.
I added a power window, and tried to do a track. Crash. Every time. Every clip.

I did an Alexa and Red project yesterday, no problem.
2k .dpx today, no problem.
DNG, problem.
Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon.

System:
Resolve v9 beta 3
Mac 2x2.66 GHz 6-Core Intel Zeon
24GB Ram
DaVinci Control Surface


You should probably ask about this in the Resolve forum.

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:51 pm

Luis Otero wrote:
I always color grade starting with a Log images, so I know what to expect from a RAW image viewed via Resolve. I am comparing the images with Red cameras, either One or Epic.

Yes, I still think it is extremely noisy (those 2 shots).. Moreover, the orange colors in the background (short wall) in shot 4 looks almost bleeding. For a 13 stop claim-camera, I would not expect that at all.

Luis


Cinema DNG RAW and LOG images of course are two different things.

I have shot many hours of broadcast TV with RED, RED MX and EPIC cameras in low light and I would say they are comparable to the noise of these cameras.

You do of course have more resolution.

To characterise the BMCC as "extremely noisy" in comparison to RED or RED EPIC is completely different to my experience, and I think you'll find the vast majority of other opinions.

If you are sensitive to noise perhaps there are other cameras that perform better in ultra low light like the C300.

jb
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Re: Afterglow

PostThu Aug 23, 2012 11:57 pm

mario wrote:John - can you give some more colour on the sound. How does it compare to a 5dmkii (as a low benchmark) or a H2n (as a high benchmark)? Is there enough sensitivity to use an NTG-2 or do we need to use DSLR mic such as Rode VM Pro? Many Thanks!!


If you're only using the camera's mic, it's far from HiFi ! It's the same as a 5D really. Good enough for something like PluralEyes to work, but you can easily get handling noise and pick up the fan noise of the camera. The fan is actually very very quiet compared to say an EPIC, but because the chassis of the camera is a single piece, it's hard to isolate that sound.

If you use the mic/line input from another source then it's very good ! I'm a Cinematographer though and don't have any more knowledge about the audio side of things with regards to the Mic's you mention.

jb
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kenth32

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 3:01 am

I am very excited about being able to download the RAW DNg files to work with them. However I cannot get the Davinci Resolve Lite to install on my computer. I am running a Windows 8 Consumer Preview and the installer won't run because it can't recognize the operating system.

Any suggestions on how to fix that?

Kent
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 3:01 am

kenth32 wrote:I am very excited about being able to download the RAW DNg files to work with them. However I cannot get the Davinci Resolve Lite to install on my computer. I am running a Windows 8 Consumer Preview and the installer won't run because it can't recognize the operating system.

Any suggestions on how to fix that?

Kent


You should ask in the Resolve forum here.

jb
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mattbatt

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 3:32 am

Thanks John for the RAW files to share! This was my first time grading in Resolve, I used some nodes and pretty much had no clue what I was doing - on non-calibrated PC monitors too, :lol:

Here is my grade:

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 4:02 am

jameswicks wrote:The clips play fine until you do a simple grade, then Resolve crashes every time.
I added a power window, and tried to do a track. Crash. Every time. Every clip.

I have the same problem with the tracker and DNGs, so i ended up just grading without tracking anything. I want to report some bugs i've found in 9b3 in the forums here, but haven't had time yet to detail it properly with reproducible steps, crash logs, etc.
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 4:08 am

There is a resolve forum on here peeps. Let's keep this to congratulation John and asking shoot and footage specific questions eh?
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Rohit Gupta

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 8:55 am

kenth32 wrote:I am very excited about being able to download the RAW DNg files to work with them. However I cannot get the Davinci Resolve Lite to install on my computer. I am running a Windows 8 Consumer Preview and the installer won't run because it can't recognize the operating system.

Any suggestions on how to fix that?

Kent


Did you install the 64-bit version? The 64-bit version of Windows 8 should work with the Resolve 9 installer.
Rohit Gupta

DaVinci Resolve Software Development
Blackmagic Design
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Johannes

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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 9:55 pm

Just now i forgot all the techno babble and wanted to point out that the girl in Afterglow is super beautiful. If anyone knows her (John B. you probably know her) then someone should tell her that thanks to her these few days for us geeks has been very exciting and a pleasure to grade those beautiful images :)
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Re: Afterglow

PostFri Aug 24, 2012 10:55 pm

Here is a clip of my grade I created in Lightroom http://vimeo.com/m/48157062
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John Brawley

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Re: Afterglow

PostSat Aug 25, 2012 10:34 pm

Johannes wrote:Just now i forgot all the techno babble and wanted to point out that the girl in Afterglow is super beautiful. If anyone knows her (John B. you probably know her) then someone should tell her that thanks to her these few days for us geeks has been very exciting and a pleasure to grade those beautiful images :)



Why don't you tell her yourself.

twitter.com/Casey_Burgess

jb
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Dimitrios Papagiannis

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Re: Afterglow

PostSun Aug 26, 2012 3:07 am

Actually there isn't a dedicated Resolve forum on here. :shock: At least not one that I could find. I mentioned it to Grant. Hopefully he will include one. I think now any Resolve Posts are meant to be put under Post Production.
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Re: Afterglow

PostSun Aug 26, 2012 8:51 am

Why don't you tell her yourself.

twitter.com/Casey_Burgess

jb[/quote]

Thank you sir, i'll do that
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Felipe Arruda

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This camera will sell like hell!

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 3:17 am

I've made 3 gradings pushing different things on 2 and being "me" on the 3rd.

Plus, made some stabilization and a slow motion test.

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Re: Afterglow

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 1:01 pm

Hi jim

I loved the footage, I have done grading in my style using RAW sequences. the camera should be a real wonder I love to receive one soon

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John Waldorff

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Re: Afterglow

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 6:28 pm

I love this. Thank you for this beautiful footage. I graded in Photoshop and am sold on your product.
I noticed that CS6 Speedgrade lacks support though. We should make Adobe aware of that.
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thefcpxeditor

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Re: Afterglow

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 6:46 pm

Thank you Blackmagic and John Brawley for kindly making these RAW files available.

I understand to get the most latitude when grading this footage you need to use the Blackmagic Divinci Resolve Application, Photoshop, or something of that nature. In this test though I thought I would give the footage more of a challenge and did all grading in Final Cut Pro X.

Here's the video I created with the shots testing various color corrections:

Workflow:

1.) Opened Final Cut Pro X and created a New Event and Project for the test.
2.) Imported the DNG's into the test Event.
3.) Put all the DNG's into the timeline and set the duration for all of them to one frame.
4.) Selected all the DNG's for a particular shot and Command+G to make each shot a compound clip therefore separating each of the four shots out for editing as a video clip.
Steps one through four took about a minute to do.
5.) Corrected and colored the clips one step at a time as shown in the video. Including the use of Motionvfx.com's mLooks 2 Color Correction Plugins in combination with Final Cut Pro X's Color Board. I can't tell you how much I love the Color and Shape masking abilities that are right there within the program!
6.) Exported 1080P

Also notably, and amazingly, Final Cut Pro X played back the 2.5K footage un-rendered in the 1080P timeline no problem, even with all grades, color and shape masks, and titles applied. Put that on the list of things that make me smile as an editor. :D

In the end I was very impressed with how clean the footage was as I largely have had to work with DSLR footage. It's a big difference. It held up incredibly well to grading directly in the application. It was very resistent to the normal color noise and artifacting you see when grading DSLR footage. There is some noise in the final low light shot but it is mostly luminance, not color noise. That I can deal with.
Braden Storrs

The Final Cut pro X Editor
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Charlie Anderson

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Re: Afterglow

PostMon Aug 27, 2012 9:50 pm

What is everyone using for color space? I see P3, 709 and then different gamma options.

Also, is there a way to enable "Film" mode on the DNGs? I'm curious about applying a film emulation LUT that I have to this footage but I need a Log-type image and not a 709 one. Anyone have any suggestions for shooting in a Log-style scenario?

Messed with P3 and gamma 2.4 settings for a few of these shots (all shots have a Film Emulation LUT applied to them). Just a quick first light on them, nothing special.

Love the range on this camera!

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
-----
Charlie Anderson
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Joe Gonzalez

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Re: Afterglow

PostTue Aug 28, 2012 1:44 am

Thanks John for the inspiration! This company knows what there doing and im glad to be apart of it. Reminds me how Apple revolutionized the industry with their iphone now BMC with their cine-cams! Heres our grade using Resolve from the footage you gave us.
heres a graded DNG Image
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Aharon Rothschild

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Re: Afterglow

PostTue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 am

The BMC footage keys and grades exceptionally well. Shooting RAW and following a RAW workflow through post isn't going to be for everyone, and it's great to have the choice between less time in post vs options in the grade.
This camera really levels the playing field in a significant way, I'm excited to see the Indie films that release in 2013.
Shot2.jpg
Shot2.jpg (237.18 KiB) Viewed 22987 times
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Barry Sanders

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Re: Afterglow

PostTue Aug 28, 2012 4:47 pm

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