The BMPC4K Grades

The point of owning a BMPC 4K over the BMCC is clear. 4K res aside, the former is a production camera which holds much more color information over its older sibling, which has been built as a film camera. The images we are looking at, which rival what we can achieve from the 2.5k RAW are Pro-Res HQ. The ease of correcting these images can't be compared to the turmoil you have to go through, to achieve the same looks with the filmic 2.5k RAW. That's why I have sought solace in FilmConvert.
Grant called it "more of a general production camera"; but if this is what I can get from a general purpose camera, let alone it's lossless compressed RAW mode, I'm sold.
For most of us, the primary delivery is the silver screen, where pixels, contrast and saturation is key. We haven't seen much, but it seems the BMPC 4K has come to stay.

It is a very ordinary brown, varies in shade according to the time of year. In that shot there should be a fair amount of blue reflected sky, but in the shaded areas the brown would be quite noticeable.

Got the still uploaded... different than the other forum.

I could see the blue in the water from the sky, bodes well for color separation once you get down to it.

Also re: sky detail (someone else posted it) you can't keep that detail without forcing the rest of the image to go murky/dark. It's a window or you lose it IMO.

Grads (in camera) are still pretty relevant these days. xD

You can also fake sky or Building reflection in water surfaces in nuke or AE, Just depends if you have solid clean plate that is as accurate in color/lighting/shadows etc.. from the day it was shot, in fact it should be from that day, and the same location and time of day for a solid clean plate.

One of the reason to want the BMD Production 4K camera is the Ultra HD for VFX / Compositing & Digital Matt Painting.

I just downloaded Daryl's clip and can say it looks very nice indeed, and he got the colour of the river pretty close to the real thing. I wonder if anyone noticed it was actually raining in the shot with the people running. It is on what is called 'The Tan', a path around the Melbourne Botanical Gardens very close to the city centre.

Thanks Geoff, I mentioned that to my Business Partner, I suggested he find any video online of the "Joggers Raining.mov" online that you could see the rain, He could not.
But that is mostly due to compression on vimeo or youtube, not so much my skills

But thanks for mentioning that, I'm glad you noticed it, I guess you have a good eye, I'm hoping mine lasts a few more years.

I noticed the rain, but had to watch it all back at 4K/on a UHD screen to do so.

I noticed the rain, but had to watch it all back at 4K/on a UHD screen to do so.

On what video did you notice it, or was it the Prores HQ from Grant Petty?

I also noticed what appeared to be incorrect field dominance in the shot of the railway station, evident on the fast cyclists and the faster moving tram.

Just for a little bit of fun, if you were to follow the River Yarra downstream, that is away from the camera, about 4.5 kilometres downstream you would pass the offices of BMD

Well Sir you have better eyes than me, and have access to the Amazing location Grant was shooting from, and for that I say...Well done... Since I have seen Feature films shot 3 blocks from my own neighborhood and didn't recognize them until someone told me it was my neighborhood

Hey Geoff, this is just a recap of your question/post here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16619&start=50#p104629

The other reason for Ultra HD & Super Sharp Contrasty Images is for Commercial Broadcast Work it is this simple.

This is what I believe the New BMD 4K Camera can achieve... just awesome!
Now go and shoot something like this, and stop complaining.

Yes I was the first to say I love Carl's Jr TV Commercial Pron, as cheesy as that sounds....
Well...I have no answer except more cheese

Just another graded.

vimeo.com/82340498

[Terry Frechette]

Morning:

There was rain in the jogger footage.

Terry

Hi,

Has anyone tried editing the 4k Prores on Windows 8.1 (or any version of Windows for that matter)?

I'm going to get a new PC, but wondering if Windows will choke on Prores.

Thanks so much for your advice!

~Adam

MOIRE, anyone?
This doesn't use that BEYER CRAPTASTIC MULTICOLORED MOIRE generating mode does it?

MOIRE, anyone?
This doesn't use that BEYER CRAPTASTIC MULTICOLORED MOIRE generating mode does it?

Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand your questions.

I don't see much if any aliasing or moire in Grant's original BMPC-4K ProRes HQ sample UHD files when viewed at 100%. I'm fairly certain the BMPC-4K camera uses a Beyer pattern sensor, but I could be mistaken.

-

Hi,

Has anyone tried editing the 4k Prores on Windows 8.1 (or any version of Windows for that matter)?

I'm going to get a new PC, but wondering if Windows will choke on Prores.

Thanks so much for your advice!

~Adam

I am on Windows 8.1
PLayback of 4k ProRes was just fine in a quicktime pulling those files from a fast Raid
I am running on 3x Gtx Titan and very fast Raid (500MBps up, 500 MBps down), 48GB Ram and 6 core Xeon Processor. In Resolve I am getting full speed playback when grading 4k ProRes in a 1080p timeline. When Rendering the timeline as a 4k 10bit CIneform I would get 7fps on average.

Heard rumor that these files are only 8-bit. Bummer.

Heard rumor that these files are only 8-bit. Bummer.

But why are you spreading "rumor"? See:
viewtopic.php?p=104804#p104804

-

Heard rumor that these files are only 8-bit. Bummer.

But why are you spreading "rumor"? See:
viewtopic.php?p=104804#p104804

-

Haha, just trying to get the response as fast as possible I guess. I prefer to call it "Marketing my question."

But you got me.

I am on Windows 8.1
PLayback of 4k ProRes was just fine in a quicktime pulling those files from a fast Raid
I am running on 3x Gtx Titan and very fast Raid (500MBps up, 500 MBps down), 48GB Ram and 6 core Xeon Processor. In Resolve I am getting full speed playback when grading 4k ProRes in a 1080p timeline. When Rendering the timeline as a 4k 10bit CIneform I would get 7fps on average.

Thanks for your response Dmitry! WHOA... that is a monster PC. Would you mind sharing what mobo, cpu, and RAID solution you are using? I read on Newegg.ca that the Asus P9X79-E WS only uses an internal "virtual RAID" which doesn't actually support RAID 10, despite claiming to do so, which made me think maybe the 1150 socket mobos are virtual RAID too. Plus, there's other issues with Secure Boot. Here's a summarized version... I'd be interested to hear your take on these issues as I'm going to be getting a new PC soon.

* RAID implementation is only virtualized; incorrectly documented; no RAID 10, despite promising otherwise; Turns all SATA ports to RAID. [This is important, considering there are no PATA or IDE ports on the board. So, set this board to RAID and forget about your optical drives, unless you want to try using USB headers. Experience says you can set up RAID and then go back into the EFI settings and switch the SATA ports back to AHCI mode; but, at that point, you're taking your data into your own hands to gamble with. ]

* Secure Boot... No deactivation, just "Other OS" mode. Switching from "UEFI Windows" to "Other OS" will break RAID.

* Uncommon form factor... SSICEB; not a lot of computer cases support this.

Thanks so much for your time!

youtube.com/watch?v=unljDTIUUR8

Edit: downloaded all the clips, finally.
youtube.com/watch?v=6Xpg1dd1grU

I meant does anybody SEE any moire in these first examples?
Can't open the zip to check since I'm on Windows...

Scott, is that closer to what you look for?

Kholi that's not bad.

Or something like this:

Okay thanks.

I think part of the deal is that the clouds are sort of thin (in Grants footage), but there are some fluffy ones in the other shots.

AT the moment I'm trying to open the image up, so looking for some feedback.

There is no point of sharing those specs - they are rather out of date equipment that is no longer made. Built my system two years ago.
Regarding the RAID - I am using 8 hdd external Cineraid box with an Areca PCI-e host card with dual connection to the external box.

I am on Windows 8.1
PLayback of 4k ProRes was just fine in a quicktime pulling those files from a fast Raid
I am running on 3x Gtx Titan and very fast Raid (500MBps up, 500 MBps down), 48GB Ram and 6 core Xeon Processor. In Resolve I am getting full speed playback when grading 4k ProRes in a 1080p timeline. When Rendering the timeline as a 4k 10bit CIneform I would get 7fps on average.

Thanks for your response Dmitry! WHOA... that is a monster PC. Would you mind sharing what mobo, cpu, and RAID solution you are using? I read on Newegg.ca that the Asus P9X79-E WS only uses an internal "virtual RAID" which doesn't actually support RAID 10, despite claiming to do so, which made me think maybe the 1150 socket mobos are virtual RAID too. Plus, there's other issues with Secure Boot. Here's a summarized version... I'd be interested to hear your take on these issues as I'm going to be getting a new PC soon.

* RAID implementation is only virtualized; incorrectly documented; no RAID 10, despite promising otherwise; Turns all SATA ports to RAID. [This is important, considering there are no PATA or IDE ports on the board. So, set this board to RAID and forget about your optical drives, unless you want to try using USB headers. Experience says you can set up RAID and then go back into the EFI settings and switch the SATA ports back to AHCI mode; but, at that point, you're taking your data into your own hands to gamble with. ]

* Secure Boot... No deactivation, just "Other OS" mode. Switching from "UEFI Windows" to "Other OS" will break RAID.

* Uncommon form factor... SSICEB; not a lot of computer cases support this.

Thanks so much for your time!

Fair point. I was frustrated - had 4k on order and cancelled - got BMCC, but Grant's candidness is great

Well the Resolution Seems to be there.. but like it was to be expected Even BM can't work miraculous Magic on the CMOSIS Sensor.. especially the Clipping in Highlights doesn't seem to be handled Nearly as Nice as with the "Classic" BMCC, still digging the "Old" Sensor with the higher Dynamic Range much more... so totally right call from BM to openly advertise it as another Alternative and not a replacement.. eventhough Many ppl here hate BMs Communication strategy I highly Applaud their openness about the "flaws"/cons! Thumbs up

There is no point of sharing those specs - they are rather out of date equipment that is no longer made. Built my system two years ago.
Regarding the RAID - I am using 8 hdd external Cineraid box with an Areca PCI-e host card with dual connection to the external box.

Okay, thanks so much Dmitry for that useful info! I really appreciate the response!

Have a Merry Christmas!

~Adam

Yet another color grading test of Grant's BMPC 4K clips. These were graded in FCPX.

As a case in point, no-one has yet got the colour of the river right

(That is an observation, not a criticism)

Its a bad observation, because I posted a precise frame grab from the river.



I did absolutely no grading in this shot. The only thing that I did was to convert the footage from log to linear - no color changes.

So, if you think that this color is not precise, then Blackmagic did a bad job with the color science of this camera.

You might like to PM me and explain where I offended you. It certainly was not intentional.

Hi Geoff, I just now got back to reading this post, You never offended me, I enjoyed our forum conversation, I was speaking to the general audience here, about shooting more and complaining less

I hope that clears things up.
Cheers

As a case in point, no-one has yet got the colour of the river right

(That is an observation, not a criticism)

Its a bad observation, because I posted a precise frame grab from the river.



I did absolutely no grading in this shot. The only thing that I did was to convert the footage from log to linear - no color changes.

So, if you think that this color is not precise, then Blackmagic did a bad job with the color science of this camera.

I must have a gamma problem because that photo looks so unreal. Blues much too dark for an apparent semi-sunny day, or any day for that matter. The colours are wrong from what I'm seeing on my monitor.

Jules

I must have a gamma problem because that photo looks so unreal. Blues much too dark for an apparent semi-sunny day, or any day for that matter.

Its not a problem with your monitor. That is called ignorance (or lack of knowledge).

When you convert the footage from log to linear, you show all the available dynamic range of the video.

What you are seeing is a similar effect as the one you get using polarizing filters. That is not a mistake, thats a choice.

And its a much better choice when using a camera with high dynamic range. Im seeing lots of gradings of the BM camera with little visible dynamic range - lots of blown out highlights and crushed shadows. If you want that look, use a GH3.

The colours are wrong from what I'm seeing on my monitor.

Jules

Its funny how some people use their MONITORS to say that something looks good or bad, when all that you need is to look at some graphics.

PLEASE, explain to me, technically, why are the colors wrong? PLEASE!

*and please, post a better example

I must have a gamma problem because that photo looks so unreal. Blues much too dark for an apparent semi-sunny day, or any day for that matter.

Its not a problem with your monitor. That is called ignorance (or lack of knowledge).

When you convert the footage from log to linear, you show all the available dynamic range of the video.

What you are seeing is a similar effect as the one you get using polarizing filters. That is not a mistake, thats a choice.

And its a much better choice when using a camera with high dynamic range. Im seeing lots of gradings of the BM camera with little visible dynamic range - lots of blown out highlights and crushed shadows. If you want that look, use a GH3.

The colours are wrong from what I'm seeing on my monitor.

Jules

Its funny how some people use their MONITORS to say that something looks good or bad, when all that you need is to look at some graphics.

PLEASE, explain to me, technically, why are the colors wrong? PLEASE!

*and please, post a better example

Looking at your picture in Resolve, say at the boat by the river bank, its around 700 in the parade scope. If you were following the Ansel Adams Zone System, you'd expect white painted surface with some sun on it to be 800-900. So I think your picture is a bit underexposed or something. It certainly appears a lot darker than people's grades in this thread.

You have brought a good point about all the clipping and crushing blacks. I know the OP said he did over saturate etc. to test the camera range but people have followed with a lot of hot, over saturated, bright grades. But I put that akin to a competition among people, hoping the brighter the more saturated, the more it stands out. I don't think you'd be putting a movie out for broadcast or cinema like that.

But the BMPC4K has already proved itself, in my humble opinion, to have BMD's great colour science, and unexpectedly, I'm liking how it captures people's skin tones too.


Cheers,
Jules

[CaptainHook]

Linear gamma will appear dark.. the top 50% is 1 stop. It's a part of digital capture (to some degree) and why people recommend ETTR, and it's used widely in the VFX/3D/Compositing world as light additions/fall-off etc are more realistic, but i've never seen it advocated as a delivery target by anyone as it doesnt resemble how the human eye or film responds to light at all (and personally i think calling others ignorant does not serve to help).

This may give a better idea:

http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/linear_gamma.pdf

The only thing that I did was to convert the footage from log to linear - no color changes.

Hi, how did you perform the BM4K "log" to linear transform?

CaptainHook - did you upload the video of your attempt? Best I've seen so far by a long mile. Especially the shot at the pier.

[CaptainHook]

No, i was focused on getting my own BM4K footage ready and uploaded. I'm away for xmas but maybe when i return, thanks.

Hi Guys,

I've been looking closely at Grant's 4k footage, and I see a lot of noise in it. I don't have any experience shooting with a RED camera or an Alexa, so I don't know what is normal for these devices.

Can someone tell me, is this amount of noise normal, is it a result of Grant not being a great operator, or is the camera extra noisy?

I tried to remove the noise with Neat Video's Reduce Noise plug in. I generally have excellent results with it when treating H264 footage from my 5D Mk ii, but I realize this is an entirely different animal.

On the plus side, I am blown away with how easy it is to key areas, such as the sky etc, that would have been much more difficult in 5D footage. The native Pro Res image is obviously so much deeper.

Anyway, can someone who has more experience with the big boy cameras than I do lend an opinion regarding the noise in these clips? Thanks!!

There is very little noise in that footage. Remember that the BM cameras do no image processing in camera, unlike DSLRs and other cameras that shoot to consumer codecs (H264, AVCHD, etc).

Compression, like H264, also smooths out the noise because the footage gets slightly blurred when compressed.

What you are seeing is totally normal for this type of camera. You'll not get perfectly smooth noiseless footage from current digital sensors.

Thank you Adam

Hi All

Below is a basic stylized 4K grade link from us.

Cheers

http://www.synapsecreative.com.au/showreel.html

4k Composite Plate

Bmpc 4k Syn1 grade.jpg (284.6 KiB) Viewed 10545 times

4k Composite ver2

Bmpc 2 Grass.jpg (855.57 KiB) Viewed 10298 times

[CaptainHook]

Kholi that's not bad.

Or something like this:

Been wanting to check this out and had a quick play now.. I do think you can get more dramatic 'photographic' skies/clouds from these files - clearly it was exposed a bit 'hot' and some of the clouds clip, but otherwise it's just another grading decision IMHO.





Both pretty extreme and 'surreal' to me, but gives you an idea.

Wow CaptainHook! Would you mind briefly explaining what you did to achieve your results?

My shot from the BMCC was done simply with Adobe Camera RAW adjustments as I didn't know how to use Resolve back then.

I'm not sure any of these grades really have a place on ULTRA HD TV Displays, the internet?..Yeah maybe, we shall see when many of us start buying our first 4K Ultra HD TV's, I'm sure depending on the brand and manufacturer we are going to see many over saturated grades.. In ULTRA HD anyway.

I'm not convinced the 4K Production camera is the the camera for Cinema or ULTRA HD results, it is just another tool for the end result, depending on what your desired "end result" is of course.

Both pretty extreme and 'surreal' to me, but gives you an idea.

Pretty extreme and 'surreal' is an understatement CaptainHook, but maybe that is what ULTRA HD Needs to succeed? Your grading is without question, looks...well.."Surreal" but that is whats bothering me to some extent, Just wish I had the camera since I have a access to a 55" ULTRA HD TV, I need to see what this camera was made to do.

[CaptainHook]

Wow CaptainHook! Would you mind briefly explaining what you did to achieve your results?

Its basically just a key on the sky, then a curve applied. And that's actually after a node with a LUT, so you could possibly pull more detail out but even this is really quite pushed. The second one has a gradient mask to feather it down into the buildings to help with the illusion of depth.

[CaptainHook]

pretty extreme and 'surreal is an understatement, but maybe that is what ULTRA HD Needs to succeed?

I think right now it's just "fun" to really push the footage - same way there were lots of very saturated/pushed BMCC footage when it first hit. Don't worry there's definitely more understated/subtle footage coming off this camera (i've seen some great stuff from other testers already) - and hopefully that will show up soon. But it's also kind of natural to push things at first, to get an idea of not just where it breaks, but HOW it breaks. I didn't really post stuff like this with the BMCC and Pocket, and i wanted to this time - mostly just because i was a bit bored with my previous 'looks' and i pretty much NEVER get to grade things this way.

It's also really early days with this camera in terms of figuring it out etc. One of the next things i want to do is really figure out how i like to expose with it, and also get all 3 cameras shooting the same thing at the same time with the same lens model and see how they line up. This stuff is incredibly time consuming though and most of its really not exciting footage to post !

pretty extreme and 'surreal is an understatement, but maybe that is what ULTRA HD Needs to succeed?

I think right now it's just "fun" to really push the footage - same way there were lots of very saturated/pushed BMCC footage when it first hit. Don't worry there's definitely more understated/subtle footage coming off this camera (i've seen some great stuff from other testers already) - and hopefully that will show up soon. But it's also kind of natural to push things at first, to get an idea of not just where it breaks, but HOW it breaks. I didn't really post stuff like this with the BMCC and Pocket, and i wanted to this time - mostly just because i was a bit bored with my previous 'looks' and i pretty much NEVER get to grade things this way.

It's also really early days with this camera in terms of figuring it out etc. One of the next things i want to do is really figure out how i like to expose with it, and also get all 3 cameras shooting the same thing at the same time with the same lens model and see how they line up. This stuff is incredibly time consuming though and most of its really not exciting footage to post !

I agree it is fun, and looks amazing, albeit unrealistic or " Not Cinematic" but none the less amazing looking visuals.

I feel the same about all 3 cameras needing a "Side by Side", not for comparison in quality, but more about them working together on a single project, and complementing each other in their own way to complete a finished project, and end result being that using all 3 cameras on a single project that will produce an acceptable result for independent film or broadcast television.

So I finally opened the zip in WinRar and got some files out of it and as people said before they are showing up as 1364x767... Even when I import them into After Effects CS6 they are still this resolution. And scaling them up doesn't fix it. They are actually being interpreted as this resolution by After Effects...

I sure would like to actually see what this footage looks like before I buy this camera... UGH...

So I finally opened the zip in WinRar and got some files out of it and as people said before they are showing up as 1364x767... Even when I import them into After Effects CS6 they are still this resolution. And scaling them up doesn't fix it. They are actually being interpreted as this resolution by After Effects...

I sure would like to actually see what this footage looks like before I buy this camera... UGH...

Double click the Rar file ,..right click on the folder inside,to reveal the menu,
select [repair archive] and extract to new a folder ,,This worked for us!.
Cheers

So I finally opened the zip in WinRar and got some files out of it and as people said before they are showing up as 1364x767... Even when I import them into After Effects CS6 they are still this resolution. And scaling them up doesn't fix it. They are actually being interpreted as this resolution by After Effects...

I sure would like to actually see what this footage looks like before I buy this camera... UGH...

Double click the Rar file ,..right click on the folder inside,to reveal the menu,
select [repair archive] and extract to new a folder ,,This worked for us!.
Cheers

I tried it but the files are still being interpreted at that wonky crap resolution...