Sony F65, Red Epic vs BMCC shootout

Hi,

Got this from a post on bmcuser (by Peter J. DeCrescenzo) , it's a camera shootout between high-end digital cameras Sony F65 and Red Epic, and the minnow of the pack... Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera. Test carried out by Mytherapy, with an emphasise on skin tone.


I know Dado, head of Mytherapy, from when he happen to be on the panel of a film event I put on in London a little over a year ago. Really good chap, so I'm looking forward to the "reveal" on 25th Oct, 'cause I'm confident whatever it will be, the test will be thorough and unbiased.


Cheers,
Jules

That´s gonna be awesome! I will surely tip the video!

Genius.

The blackmagic must be getting ready to hit the streets..bm has to be involved in this somehow!

Even comparing this to a red or F65 is a little silly, but GREAT marketing, for sure.

That's a silly test. The RED wins, hands down! Have you ever tried throwing a RED Epic at a wall? The things made out of Superman's hair or something 'cuz it just won't break apart! So imagine firing a small calibre handgun at it? I bet the bullet would just fly right off and...

What? It's not that kind of shootout? Oh.

Then, Blackmagic Cinema Camera for me!

Seriously: I don't care for RED's sharpness or Sony's video-y look. The BMCC footage looks more like something captured by an Alexa and the Arri's imagery looks phenomenaly film-like in it's video noise patterns and tonality. Color grading helps any footage, but both Epic and BMCC have an easier go with it from the raw capability, though, again, the Cinema Camera seems more film-y to me right out of the box. I guess I'll know first-hand soon enough.

Genius.

The blackmagic must be getting ready to hit the streets..bm has to be involved in this somehow!

Even comparing this to a red or F65 is a little silly, but GREAT marketing, for sure.

hope so, there will be a ton of happy people.

Seriously: I don't care for RED's sharpness or Sony's video-y look. The BMCC footage looks more like something captured by an Alexa and the Arri's imagery looks phenomenaly film-like in it's video noise patterns and tonality.

Sorry man, but that comment about the Reds "sharpness" and he BMCC looking phenomenally film like is a bit over the top.

The bmcc is a pro-sumer camera. Period.
Putting it in the league of a Red/Epic is going overboard.

http://www.red.com/shot-on-red

...seriously

Seriously: I don't care for RED's sharpness or Sony's video-y look. The BMCC footage looks more like something captured by an Alexa and the Arri's imagery looks phenomenaly film-like in it's video noise patterns and tonality.

Sorry man, but that comment about the Reds "sharpness" and he BMCC looking phenomenally film like is a bit over the top.

The bmcc is a pro-sumer camera. Period.
Putting it in the league of a Red/Epic is going overboard.

http://www.red.com/shot-on-red

...seriously

I'm not saying your wrong, but I'd like to hear why you think it's so over-the-top? With the latitude and sharpness that the BMCC is capable of delivering, I think a good DP should be able to compete with those two big dogs. I know the Sony is a true 4K camera, from 8K digital, and the EPIC is a digital 5K camera, but considering the limits of the human eye, resolution aside, I wouldn't discount the BMCC from being able to deliver an image that easily competes with the F65 and EPIC in visual quality. Just my two cents...

http://www.red.com/shot-on-red

...seriously

That link didn't exist before the RED MX was delivered

I'm not saying your wrong, but I'd like to hear why you think it's so over-the-top? With the latitude and sharpness that the BMCC is capable of delivering, I think a good DP should be able to compete with those two big dogs. I know the Sony is a true 4K camera, from 8K digital, and the EPIC is a digital 5K camera, but considering the limits of the human eye, resolution aside, I wouldn't discount the BMCC from being able to deliver an image that easily competes with the F65 and EPIC in visual quality. Just my two cents...

I can respect what you are saying, and yes, "resolution aside", sure, the BMCC will rock youtube and vimeo all day! And Im confident it can and will easily take its place in those straight to blu-ray/dvd releases as well. Put any decent camera in the hands of a good DP, and they will deliver a good result with all other things remaining equal.

But, discounting resolution, at the cost of...what? An image that easily competes..where? The next Spiderman release? Im ready to believe it, but I have to see it first!


Ok...120fps RedOne/Alexa, 300fps Epic, 30fps BMCC. not an issue for some, a HUGE issue for others


Trust me, I dont think the Red family is the be all end all, but their cameras do what they were design to do very well. Do they have their unique set of issues, for sure, however.

Should we even talk about scalability...

A better test would be BMCC against 2k Alexa footage. Both shooting at near 2k, but one having an advantage... no? Would Dion Beebe shoot Gangster Squad on the BMCC? Id love to know the answer to this!

Hey, we've ordered a few of BMCCs and hope to use them to supplement what we use to shoot (for money) with, which includes Red cameras, DSLRs, and everything in between, but honestly the Scarlet is looking like a better proposition everyday.

Im happy either way, the BMCC will make a great supplemental camera for sure.

I look forward to the test!!

With the average multiplex cinema often showing dark out of focus images, I don't know if your viewer is going to notice the difference between any of these cameras. I think it was Martin Scorsese who did a tour of cinemas and was appalled at how often cinema images weren't up to standard.

In my opinion all the cameras give very similar images. Not like the old days when DV first came in and we still had the magnificence of real film everywhere. I remember seeing '28 days later' shot in DV, yuk! Good film though.

From what I seen, BMCC gives a more gritty image than clean Red. What would be really good if we can see some of these test footages on the big screen rather than computer monitor. Makes it hard to judge.

For skin tone, BMCC seems very impressive to my untrained eye. Something tells me its going to hold up well.

Cheers,
Jules

Hi all,

Just wanted to clear up some details on this test shoot...

Dado & MyTherapy were already doing the F65 vs Epic side by side test when we discussed bringing the BMD camera along as well. The actual 'shootout' was much more between them as they could use the same lens set etc while we shot with a pretty naked camera on canon glass.

This feature isn't any indication of shipping cameras, and BMD weren't involved - we used our reseller demo model. The only updates you'll get on shipping models that are from Grant & the team here.

There are of course many features that come with the established digifilm cameras which the BMDCC couldn't have for it's price point but we felt as the test was being done at 25fps under controlled conditions it was a good chance to see how it holds up to the big boys for this particular type of shooting which MyTherapy do alot of for their fashion clients.

All that said...results so far are looking beautiful - and not just because the models were gorgeous!

There are of course many features that come with the established digifilm cameras which the BMDCC couldn't have for it's price point...

Agreed. This is, in essence, what I meant by my earlier reply.

All that said...results so far are looking beautiful - and not just because the models were gorgeous!

Thank you for taking the time to post!!

some one needs to do a shoot out between the arri, scarlet, bmcc, and mk3 and the only reason i included the mk3 is that people can understand the difference between raw and .mp4

i'm pretty sure f65 or Epic will look much better than the BMCC, resolution, DR and sensor..but the arriraw blowed up to 4k looks pretty good and i think BMcc will look the same.....we'll see on october 25th, when this shootout will be released...meanwhile I found this yesterday on youtube

F65 kicks Epic's ass!!!

Jesus

I remember seeing '28 days later' shot in DV, yuk! Good film though.

The best part is the DV thing was a stylistic choice by the DP and director: AMPAS and BAFTA award-winners Anthony Dod Mantle, BSC and Danny Boyle, respectively. I wonder what they could do with a BMCC...

F65 kicks Epic's ass!!!

Jesus

Not really a test as it doesn't confirm any details on the lenses used as this would make a huge difference at that range. Also, it's only a telephoto styled single image. Does bring up a point that RED appears to filter what it captures, I don't know if the filter can be turned off. I think the BMCC doesn't have an anti-aliasing filter.

Jules

Hi jules!!! I've never stated this is the best test or a definitory one.

Just pointing that in this particular shot F65 kicks Epic's ass, because the footage is blowed up to 1000% and F65 looks much sharper. In the description of the video reads "All camera setting and shooting conditions are exactly same. " so i think it's quite fair.

Anyway it's just a test someone did and i pointed in this thread. Dying to see the final test on october 25th, so let's see what we find out1!!

sure, the BMCC will rock youtube and vimeo all day! And Im confident it can and will easily take its place in those straight to blu-ray/dvd releases as well.

Hey, we've ordered a few of BMCCs and hope to use them to supplement what we use to shoot (for money) with, which includes Red cameras, DSLRs, and everything in between, but honestly the Scarlet is looking like a better proposition everyday.

You will be surprised of the number of movies released theatrically allover the world in the next couple of years shot entirely on the BMD camera.

If the BMD camera is only good for YouTube and Vimeo, then why didn't you buy a Scarlet ?

sure, the BMCC will rock youtube and vimeo all day! And Im confident it can and will easily take its place in those straight to blu-ray/dvd releases as well.

Hey, we've ordered a few of BMCCs and hope to use them to supplement what we use to shoot (for money) with, which includes Red cameras, DSLRs, and everything in between, but honestly the Scarlet is looking like a better proposition everyday.

You will be surprised of the number of movies released theatrically allover the world in the next couple of years shot entirely on the BMD camera.

Did your crystal ball tell you that?
How many do you suppose will be released, say, compared to all of the digicams and film cameras in use today?
Better yet, forget that.
Lets start with just 2 cameras above the BMCC, Scarlet, and FS-700. How many world wide theartrical releases do you predict with just those 2 measly cameras that will outshoot the bmcc??

If the BMD camera is only good for YouTube and Vimeo, then why didn't you buy a Scarlet ?

Did I say "only good for youtube and vimeo"? Go back and read the rest of what I wrote, or are you purposely leaving that out of your question? In case you dont get it the second time, I was responding to a question that was asked with the notion of "resolution aside" in relationship to the RED/F65.

Not to take away from the original intent of this thread, nor the test.. which I am anxious to see.

Regardless of the results, if you believe the BMCC will stand alongside the F65 and Epic cameras of the world in world wide cinematic releases.. you are free to do it

There is no need for arrogance Theodore, if you didn't mean to sound like that , sorry, but we can talk in good maners.

anyway we all know F65 and Epic will look way better than the BMCC. If it is not, maybe red and sony users should ask for a refund

Jesus

anyway we all know F65 and Epic will look way better than the BMCC. If it is not, maybe red and sony users should ask for a refund
Jesus

I'm not so sure. The Sony camera seems quite a bit better than the Red Epic. 16 bit RAW, 8K (or 6K depending on how you measure) sensor. Mechanical shutter, that means no rolling shutter problems!! Higher dynamic range (by a stop I think), probably the shadows are a lot cleaner.

In the test, I still think BMCC can beat the Epic over skin tones. For sharpness, maybe similar (BMCC no filter vs Epic's higher resolution). BMCC will lose over noise though for sure.

I wouldn't give up on the BMCC just yet.

Jules

hey jules, I supose we will see the test at 1080p/h264 and I'm pretty sure epic and f65 in terms of resolution will look much better than BMCC...but I'm not sure about the epic because I think it's quite soft, but anyway....I really love BMCC and I don't need that test though I know BMCC will lose. In five days we'll find out.

Sking tones in BMCC don't look much natural to me in the raw as well on the Epic, but i've seen scarlet footage really awesome at that point so I think it won't differ too much.

The other day I was at at Sony road show and I saw some 4k footage in 4k tv (from F65 i think)... and it looked trully amazing in terms of sharpness, resolution, colour and DR (14 stops I know). But f65 cost 20 times more than the BMCC and I'm not aiming to buy or rent one, so I don't care about the test if BMCC gets the worst position ever

But if BMCC beats their asses i'm gonna laugh soooooooooooooo much!!!

JEsus

These debates over which is best are silly - stop worrying and decide which is best for you!

A camera is a tool. You choose your tools based on which is best for the job, how much money you have, or what you have available. Simple.

Will there be theatrical release features shot on the BMCC? Yes - definitely. Why? Because of RAW, and the ability to shoot LOG and master to 2k as is the industry standard for Cinema. Even the 5D has been used in films such as The Avengers for its look as a cheap disposable camera for stunt work.

Most of the cameras being talked about in this thread A. don't shoot higher than 1920x1080 in resolution, B. don't shoot uncompressed or to a viable format/codec (for film where scaling up for mastering, VFX and a heavy grade) and C. don't shoot RAW/LOG natively (again an issue for VFX & colour timing). Is that the end of the world? No! Does it make those cameras the obvious first choice for a project? No! Does it mean someone won't find a reason to use one on their project? No!

We're currently in pre for a feature destined for theatrical release. I ordered a BMCC to play with and if I like it, we'll definitely use it either as a B camera or maybe even our A - IF it works for the job. That doesn't mean we won't rent a Phantom if we want slow motion. You don't need a multitool camera for a film like this - you choose the camera that does it best. The Phantom can shoot regular speed footage for 35, but it is rarely used to shoot a whole film.

Any talented person or DP can make any nearly camera look great if they know its weakness, and any novice can make any camera look shockingly bad... This should be required watching for anyone interested in camera shootouts: http://www.zacuto.com/shootout-revenge-2012

Luke

Did your crystal ball tell you that?

My point is not based on a crystal ball, but based on the footage that came out of the BMD camera from all kind of photographers since April this year. and for only $3000, not $ 35,000 or $ 65,000.

The point that you are missing about camera shootouts is not about the expensive, the larger sensor or 4K camera is going to be the winner, but about which camera will produce a very workable and likeable image regardless of its price, remember the price of the camera does matter in today's economics of our business, the BMD camera will have a big share of the independent feature film market.

Did your crystal ball tell you that?

My point is not based on a crystal ball, but based on the footage that came out of the BMD camera from all kind of photographers since April this year. and for only $3000, not $ 35,000 or $ 65,000.

The point that you are missing about camera shootouts is not about the expensive, the larger sensor or 4K camera is going to be the winner, but about which camera will produce a very workable and likeable image regardless of its price, remember the price of the camera does matter in today's economics of our business, the BMD camera will have a big share of the independent feature film market.

Its kinda hard to respect somebody that only cherrypicks bits of an entire response to reply about. (for a second time)

But whatever, I've been shooting for money for years on all kinds of cameras. Seen them come. seen them go, and despite what you believe im not missing any point that you think you made here.
I will tell you this, we will see exactly ZERO worldwide theatrical films that were shot in September or October on bmcc's, but plenty that were shot on Reds Arris, Sonys, etc...

so much for your "point".

We wont be seeing massive amounts of worldwide theatrical releases of films shot on this camera regardless of when it hits the streets, it has an amazing picture, yes, but has some very limited features otherwise.

While I am respectful of your right to your opinion, I cant go along with the Blackmagic Camera Kool-Aid that some people run wild with around here.

Thanks for playing.
Have a good day.

I cant go along with the Blackmagic Camera Kool-Aid that some people run wild with around here.

It is probably the only Kool-Aid that you will be drinking in the near future if the big camera companies did not change their philosophy.

Why isn´t it up, yet? It´s afternoon in Europe, the center of the world

Why isn´t it up, yet? It´s afternoon in Europe, the center of the world

Well not sure about the center of the world, but they ARE a UK/European based company are they not? I would expect they would upload it by this afternoon. If they upload it at midnight tonight then that would be silly.

Cricket, .... cricket.... cricket..

tumble weed rolling by.....

cricket....

maybe other players made them silent ?

maybe other players made them silent ?

If that is the case at least say it's been cancelled rather than have people hit refresh every 10 mins:)

there is still some time difference so we can refresh a bit more

there is still some time difference so we can refresh a bit more

It's 20:20 in the Uk where they are based...

Evening guys,

You should bare a couple of things in mind...

If the team behind the video aren't happy with where it is today, they wont release it...or if its just not finished, it wont go public yet.

I dont think anyone from MyTherapy is a member here, so it wont get posted on this forum until someone else sees it. This thread was started by someone else who saw it on another forum started by someone else...

This test was done, as it says in the preview video, to compare the cameras for their needs for their clients. Don't expect this to be a technical side by side like the BMCC vs 5D video that was shot in the states. This test was purely about the image and which camera is best for certain situations or looks. Not about which is best, that was never the intention.

If I hear anything I will let you know, but in the mean time please try to remain civil and have patience.

Evening guys,

If I hear anything I will let you know, but in the mean time please try to remain civil and have patience.

Love that this is the go to phrase now. Since when was it ok to miss deadlines and not explain why? Nobody was expecting anything here... we were just commenting. So it's civil to lie and miss deadlines but not civil to complain about how those deadlines were missed? Wow I must be teaching my son the wrong things! Anyways this was just banter I don't see anyone moaning seriously!

Apologies Mr Costa, it is hard to convey tone on a forum.

I was of course being tongue in cheek and using my dry British sense of humour in regards to the patience being required for the camera deliveries and some of the other threads on this forum where people have been asked to remain civil

I don't see where anyone wasn't being civil. Just a few simple posts of "looks like it's not up yet"

Apologies Mr Costa, it is hard to convey tone on a forum.

I was of course being tongue in cheek and using my dry British sense of humour in regards to the patience being required for the camera deliveries and some of the other threads on this forum where people have been asked to remain civil

Ah ok sorry I'm British and didn't get that:)

Didn't you pre-order the result video Costa? Schoolboy error.... anyone would think we were getting immune to missed deadlines...

Still might get a weekly 'uploading progress' statement tomorrow. It is Friday after all...

Didn't you pre-order the result video Costa? Schoolboy error.... anyone would think we were getting immune to missed deadlines...

Still might get a weekly 'uploading progress' statement tomorrow. It is Friday after all...

Hehe
Darn it... I didn't pre-order the video! We all know that pre-ordering means being first to get said device/upload... oh hang on...

I didn't pre-order at all and just stumbled upon the video accidentally.

Sucks to be you guys.

I didn't pre-order at all and just stumbled upon the video accidentally.

Sucks to be you guys.

Did you stumble into G&G? Man those guys get EVERYTHING first.

Hey Folks,

I've got the heads up that the results of the test is coming out today. Stay tuned here!

Jules

Hey Folks,

I've got the heads up that the results of the test is coming out today. Stay tuned here!

Jules

What time UK? Only one day late! Better than 4 MONTHS.

Hi Folks,

Results of the Sony F65, Red Epic vs BMCC shootout camera test by Mytherapy...

http://www.mytherapy.tv/lab/



Cheers,
Jules

Hi Folks,

Results of the Sony F65, Red Epic vs BMCC shootout camera test by Mytherapy...

http://www.mytherapy.tv/lab/

Cheers,
Jules

I'm a bit disappointed after all the hype. Wasnt much of a shootout or proper comparison really. I agree with the sentiments in the video, but they are fairly well established sentiments in the field already, not really saying anything new.

I appreciate the clips being shared though, so thank you.

Hi Folks,

Results of the Sony F65, Red Epic vs BMCC shootout camera test by Mytherapy...

http://www.mytherapy.tv/lab/

Cheers,
Jules

I'm a bit disappointed after all the hype. Wasnt much of a shootout or proper comparison really. I agree with the sentiments in the video, but they are fairly well established sentiments in the field already, not really saying anything new.

I appreciate the clips being shared though, so thank you.

Totally agree....no real comparaision...but anyway all 3 cameras look really good...at least at hd vimeo h264. So nice to have a $3k camera to compete with the big boys....

nice video though

Sorry to be negative but it struck me as much to do about nothing. The models were pretty but it totally lost credibility when the beautiful Black model was shown in B&W...come on man!

They're gr8 editors...very pretty footage.

And the winner is......all of 'em! But how could it be otherwise? The headline, if this be news, is that the BMCC is just as real as all of us have been hoping it is. Most welcome!

This has to be the worst camera shoot out I ha e ever seen. All images looked great, but the whole shoot out concept was misleading, incomplete and also late and desapointing.