4K Banding Noise (and solution)

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Graham Parker

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4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Feb 19, 2014 11:32 am

I'm really enjoying the 4K camera so far, but even in what I would consider ok light, I've noticed banding noise down the image. Thanks to CaptainHook I know this isn't a fault with the camera, but I see places like Cinema5D having issues with the noise: http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=23587

Being new to video, I haven't learned how to use the noise reduction tools in Resolve yet, but I thought I'd put it through Topaz DeNoise 5 as they added a feature specific to band noise removal. It's a Photoshop / Lightroom plug-in, so you'd have to batch process frames but it'd be interesting to compare it to the video based noise removal programs or Resolve. If anyone is keen to run it through I'd love to see the results :)

Here's the original frame, from Cinema5D.com's review:

Image

Here's it put through DeNoise 5 (settings: vertical banding, width: 35 and a touch more Red noise removal overall)

Image

(right click and save as or open in new window for the 4K sized images)

It's still not perfect, but I think that takes it from un-usable to usable.
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Anthony Miles

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Feb 19, 2014 4:49 pm

My BM4K camera has the same problem. I do not agree it isnt a camera problem. if it is "normal" for a Black Magic 4k camera this is a problem. for what it is worth I think you could do the noise removal in resolve with similar results. I need to upgrade my license for NEAT video but it has been my noise removal of choice and it is awesome.
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Marcel Beck

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Feb 19, 2014 8:22 pm

Thanks for the post LostBoyNZ, looks like its useable
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Greg Best

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Feb 19, 2014 9:06 pm

i don't get it. that scene doesn't look that dark..... is this all new 4Ks or just some here and there?
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Graham Parker

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Feb 19, 2014 9:46 pm

I emailed the guys at 5DCinema wondering what settings this was taken at, if it was pushed and such. I'll post their reply if they email back :)

Yeah I'd be happy to use that after the noise reduction, although that's just a shot. Hopefully what's left of the bands wouldn't be too distracting in video. I think it should be fine.

Learning to do it all within Resolve will be something I'll make sure to learn this week. Is there any preferences between Resolve and NEAT video for that?
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Anthony Miles

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Feb 19, 2014 11:07 pm

There is a NEAT for Resolve. I haven't used it but I am eager to try it. You shouldn't have to noise reduce most of your footage in my opinion. if you shoot it 3 stops under then sure. But, if any portion of the frame is above say 70 ire or equivalent. It shouldn't get all noisy. Just my 2cents. I need to go shoot some more nice looking footage as I have seen a lot of nice stuff out there. I just get my head stuck in the downer issue of the fixed pattern banding noise. Thanks for posting this. Im glad Im not crazy and There are others with the issue coming forward. Hopefully there is a resolution quickly and it is a non issue because overall the camera is pretty awesome and I want to love it.
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polispol

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostThu Feb 20, 2014 2:26 am

does anybody tried to clean it with the da vinci noise reduction tool?
In my tests at 800ISO it's too much, specially on dark sky
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rick.lang

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostThu Feb 20, 2014 6:31 pm

polispol wrote:does anybody tried to clean it with the da vinci noise reduction tool?
In my tests at 800ISO it's too much, specially on dark sky


I think CaptainHook would advise to shoot with ISO400 and that it seems to perform better than using the higher ISO setting. Doesn't seem obvious but if it works...

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CaptainHook

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 12:45 pm

The camera's native iso is 400.. The manual needs to be updated to reflect this. There's no 1600ASA on the 4K camera so it makes some sense that the native ISO that gives the most DR is in the middle somewhere.

By the way, to be clear i let LostBoyNZ know that it wasn't an issue unique to an individual, but is expected if using ASA800 (just like FPN etc shows easily on 1600 for the other cams) or if underexposing too much and trying to push it back up in post.

Also, underexposing at 400 by a stop and raising it in post is cleaner that shooting 'on' at 800. So you can actually still rate/meter it at 800 or 640, but in camera for Prores set it to 400 and raise it back up in post.
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Sebem

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostSun Feb 23, 2014 1:28 pm

Did you still have the vertical line now ?
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Scott Pultz

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 3:09 am

Resolve is good at removing random noise but not specifically tuned to banding/FPN unfortunately. DeNoise looks to do a good job but the workflow would be very painful (export to tiff and batch process?)
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Christopher Kou

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostTue Mar 25, 2014 11:44 pm

I just received my BMPC 4K last week, but didn't get to start running it through its paces until today. At first I was pretty dismayed at the amount of FPN vertical banding that was evident even on the monitor, and more so in the footage that I transferred over to my computer. So I sent in a support ticket.

However, I then saw the article about how the white spots disappeared after running the camera for a while, so I decided to try something. I set it up on a tripod and just recorded to the SSD pretty much all afternoon. And lo and behold, the FPN is nearly gone! I tested before and after with nearly the same settings in the same environment (ASA400), and the difference is like night and day. Hard to believe the footage even came from the same camera.

Anyhoo, there's a very slightly noticeable bit of FPN still, and of course it is more noticeable in ASA800, so I'm going to do a bit more "burn-in" and see if it clears up entirely. If not, I'll see what BM says, but I am feeling a lot better about it now than I did a few hours ago.
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willkamp

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostWed Mar 26, 2014 3:02 am

Guys, this is a known issue with Blackmagic. The camera is not supposed to operate that way. Whomever thinks this is an acceptable and working camera, with these issues, is silly. Noise is expected when you push the camera, but a fixed patern that is always there in the cameras "Sweet spot" ISO, is not acceptable.

I just received an email from their tech team, saying they would replace my camera because of the issues. Below you can see the DPX's of my current camera.

Hi Will,

I just heard back from upper management regarding the grid pattern issue some of our 4K cameras have been experiencing.

We are still looking into the cause of this issue and finding a permanent fix. However we have decided that in the meantime we do not want to leave you with a product that you cannot use.

This is why we are offering to advance replace your camera with a new one. Before we send you the new camera, we will have our engineers perform a test on it to make sure that it is not experiencing this same grid pattern issue.

Additionally, we will provide you with a return shipping label to send the old camera back to us.


So if you havent received an email yet, I suggest you reach out if your camera is experiencing these issues and discuss your options with BM Tech Support.

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Christopher Kou

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostFri Mar 28, 2014 12:21 am

Geoff Baxter wrote:That is a very interesting situation. It would be interesting too if you had the time to repeat the process a day or so later and see what the results are. If a lot of this FPN can be cleaned up by 'running-in' the sensor, then that is a very important find.


After another day or so of testing, no luck. The noise does indeed clear up (not entirely, but mostly) after continuous use, but it comes back after shutting the camera off for a while. Maybe it has something to do with a hot sensor? I dunno. Very frustrated. Have not heard back from BMD yet.
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Eugene Afanasiev

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostFri Jul 28, 2017 5:17 am

CaptainHook wrote:The camera's native iso is 400.. The manual needs to be updated to reflect this. There's no 1600ASA on the 4K camera so it makes some sense that the native ISO that gives the most DR is in the middle somewhere.

By the way, to be clear i let LostBoyNZ know that it wasn't an issue unique to an individual, but is expected if using ASA800 (just like FPN etc shows easily on 1600 for the other cams) or if underexposing too much and trying to push it back up in post.

Also, underexposing at 400 by a stop and raising it in post is cleaner that shooting 'on' at 800. So you can actually still rate/meter it at 800 or 640, but in camera for Prores set it to 400 and raise it back up in post.

Does it still matter it's best to set ISO to 400 even when shooting raw?
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Andrew Bell

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostFri Jul 28, 2017 8:18 am

Yes. Stick to this setting when you can.
In RAW mode it useful only for viewing your exposure. I use ISO400 as reference or as a goal for exposing.
In RAW mode is the same to boost ISO later on post or in camera. You will get the same noise. Because it is raw sensor data.
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Eugene Afanasiev

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Re: 4K Banding Noise (and solution)

PostFri Jul 28, 2017 9:21 pm

Ok, got it, Thanks!
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