Corporate vs Cinema

I think it's time to discuss the difference in features needed for cameras in Corporate vs Cinema. Obviously the biggest feature needed in corporate world is autofocus. The biggest feature in cinema world is image quality.

In addressing these key differences I feel we could start hammering out what cameras are needed to be made. I would love for a separation to happen. A stop in making an all around camera that fits both corporate and cinema, and an emphasis of making the camera proper for the specific area it will be used in.

For example combine the Broadcast with the Corporate and you have a camera that will service both industries as they tend to blend these days. So L Mount Camera with autofocus and all the features people are loving in the Broadcast models. At the same time many prefer ISO over Gain, so an option in the menu to switch the display between ISO and Gain depending on preference. In many ways this also would fall into the Documentary category as documentarians need a lot of the features that are in Corporate and Broadcast environments. One man band emphasis for camera and audio features would be prioritized here. More compressed codecs often times are necessary in this space.

Cinema however should focus on the features necessary for crafting a narrative story. Commercials and Music Videos will obviously still have the cameras used on them. But we're talking about a set full of co-workers helping to make the image and audio the best it can be. Thus focus on external (wireless) FIZ control, zero latency wireless video to multiple on set monitors, and raw video.

In separating these we'll be able to start helping Blackmagic with crafting the future cameras to the correct needs of the users.

Blackmagic Broadcast/Corporate Cameras Line

• URSA Broadcast G3 (6K L Mount Full Frame)
• Pocket Broadcast (6K L Mount Full Frame)
• Micro Studio Camera 6K (L Mount Full Frame)

Blackmagic Cinema Cameras Line

• Blackmagic Cinema Camera 16K VistaVision (LPL)
• Blackmagic Mini Cinema Camera 16K VistaVision (LPL)
• Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera 16K VistaVision (LPL)

Where would you fit a camera designed for drones?

The camera designed to be used with a crew was done ages ago. It was called the URSA. It seems a Cinema camera would include allowance for devices like the Preston Ranger or incorporate similar functionality wirelessly. Price point may be the problem and risk the company.

“Are you feeling lucky?”

Where would you fit a camera designed for drones?

At this moment I feel the DJI Inspire 3 has killed it in that department. They knocked it out of the park.

Otherwise, Blackmagic Cinema Cameras could still be used on Drones made to handle the bigger payloads of cinema cameras. After all people fly the Alexa Mini and RED cameras frequently.

Obviously the biggest feature needed in corporate world is autofocus.

I don't agree with that at all.

I can see where one might make that argument for Event work, but even there I would say...don't use Auto.

Knowing my depth of field and turning on Focus Assist Coloured Lines ‘medium’ or ‘low’ works for me. My assistant walks the areas to be covered before shooting begins to confirm focus. Focus Assist is probably the best tool to employ as the operator knows where they want the centre of attention to be.

I agree with Jim and Rick. Autofocus isn't a big need for a lot of us who do corporate work. Even in the ancient days of DV/Digibeta, it wasn't uncommon for camera operators to turn off all the automatic features and focus by hand... that's how I learned. IMO, there needs to be a third category here - the YouTuber or social media content creator. They are the ones who seem to be asking for more automatic features, in-camera image processing/computational photography, rotating flip screens, and highly compressed formats. I don't (personally) need these things when doing corporate work.

What I would like to see in a camera (as a corporate video producer) is basically the UMP12k OLPF with the following modifications:

• Short flange lens mount like Canon L
• Keep the RGB pattern layout
• Keep the Super 35-sized sensor
• 6k or 8k maximum resolution up to 120fps
• Keep BRAW and add ProRes Proxy to 4444 (and or) DNxHR
• Wireless video transmission (regardless of industry, people always seem to want to crowd around the
camera). This could also be useful for live-streaming
• Built-in slot for SSD recording
• Replace the SD slot with a CFexpress slot - keep the dual Cfast 2.0 slots
• Replace the histogram with a waveform monitor

Shawn

There isn't a practical reason to have more than 4.5k unless you are doing a lot of manipulation in post, such as 3D, greenscreens or wildlife where zooming into the frame track things, etc

<5k resolution means less data, and for the same technology and sensor size, faster rolling shutter and bigger photosites and so better lowlight performance and possibly better dynamic range. Faster rolling shutter means higher frame rates at the full sensor size without losing image quality. (120fps needs 8.3ms rolling shutter or less, since 1/120=8.3)

I know Red and Sony offer 6k and 8k and BMD has kept up with that but look at the A7SIII/FX3/FX6 - all use the same 4.2k sensor and for its price it's really an excellent tool and very popular. C70 is another amazingly popular 4.2k camera. Both only make 4k files but have a little extra resolution for in body stabilization and lens correction I guess.

For real world images, humans can't see more than 2k at normal video viewing sizes, which is why it was a standard. 4k/4.5k makes sure you resolve 2k in a 4k file, which has become standard, plus some overhead for stabilization, basic vfx, or reframing. The top two top cameras in the world right now for cinema are ~4.5k, Alexa LF and Alexa 35.

I like Shawn's comments above.

And having talked with a few folks producing "corporate", I've noted at least two forms of corporate video.

The first is for corporate websites as "splainers", which is typically shot specifically for the project. And normally using a crew, using sticks, lights, and full sound gear.

The other is for socials, which use some of the available splainer footage, but seems to often be mixed with stock and phone footage. Or other hand-held or shoulder/gimbal cam motion footage. Often no more than a three person crew. If that.

This second group would really go for auto focus. The first, not so much.

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There isn't a practical reason to have more than 4.5k unless you are doing a lot of manipulation in post, such as 3D, greenscreens or wildlife where zooming into the frame track things, etc

About 20-30% of what I've shot in the past 20+ years has been against chroma backdrops. The larger frame sizes are also useful for reducing perceived noise as you scale down to 4k or 2k delivery - this can mean video for big-screen projection (events, video walls, etc.) or social media. 8k and 6k are also useful for isolating or 'punching in' on people during multi-subject interviews or panel discussions. Lastly, 3D tracking benefits from large raster images for things like 3D virtual sets. In the olden times, we had to do the tracking (mostly) by hand using Boujou, PFTrack, or Syntheyes. I don't know how people are doing it now (Unreal with supplemental hardware, maybe?), but I imagine the process still benefits from larger, more detailed images.

Shawn

Of course you are completely right about those use cases, I was responding to the idea of a 16k cinema camera.

edit:
Now that blackmagic seems to have accepted that OLPFs are a necessary component of bayer sensors, I think the only thing really holding them back is rolling shutter.

The industry is heading toward global shutters, but if cameras can readout in 10ms or less that has always been the threshold for me where rolling shutter is acceptable at 24fps, excluding maybe extreme telephoto pans where you'd need even faster.

Their newest camera has a longer than 25ms readout. 1/48 of a second is a little less than 21ms. So the camera has finished reading the top of the image, then another 4-5ms pass, before it begins reading the bottom of the image. Not a moment is shared between the top and bottom of any single frame!

Of course you are completely right about those use cases, I was responding to the idea of a 16k cinema camera.

edit:
Now that blackmagic seems to have accepted that OLPFs are a necessary component of bayer sensors, I think the only thing really holding them back is rolling shutter.

The industry is heading toward global shutters, but if cameras can readout in 10ms or less that has always been the threshold for me where rolling shutter is acceptable at 24fps, excluding maybe extreme telephoto pans where you'd need even faster.

I agree with all of this.

Shawn

Ironically it's the corporate clients these days who are asking for Sony cameras and autofocus the most.

A job I did a few weeks back had the Producer/Director saying he hates Blackmagic Cameras because the files are too large and there is no autofocus. He had us shooting on two Sony FX6s and a few FX3s as well. Granted he had shooting in LongGOP.

Still, a lot more corporate clients ask for Sony cameras these days. There's a reason this request from these clients exists.

I honestly love Blackmagic Cameras and love the image quality. I'm more than capable of working without autofocus. But it is nice when doing some of the mundane corporate jobs where they request for it to be used.

Ultimately there is a divide like you guys say. YouTubers and Content Creators for Social Media have specific needs, as do the corporate clients, and then the filmmakers have needs that are very different.

Ironically it's the corporate clients these days who are asking for Sony cameras and autofocus the most.

A job I did a few weeks back had the Producer/Director saying he hates Blackmagic Cameras because the files are too large and there is no autofocus. He had us shooting on two Sony FX6s and a few FX3s as well. Granted he had shooting in LongGOP.

Yeah... there is always that. The wishes of the client/director/producer. I've certainly had my share of requests to use certain pieces of gear for whatever reason - often because someone had been told that was "the brand" to use. However, I've been lucky enough in my career to (mostly) use whatever I thought was best for the job.

Still, a lot more corporate clients ask for Sony cameras these days. There's a reason this request from these clients exists.

I'm not surprised. Sony FX cameras are well-known and popular among owner/operators. Producers seem to know the reputation of various cameras... if not always their capabilities. I remember when the FS series was popular... the image was okay, but mixed lighting and overexposure were not well-handled by that generation.

I honestly love Blackmagic Cameras and love the image quality. I'm more than capable of working without autofocus. But it is nice when doing some of the mundane corporate jobs where they request for it to be used.

Ultimately there is a divide like you guys say. YouTubers and Content Creators for Social Media have specific needs, as do the corporate clients, and then the filmmakers have needs that are very different.

For sure!

Shawn

My corporate clients are more old style, not ask for Sony camera, autofocus, smaller files
They ask big cameras… like in 90’…
If I’m with Irda is ok, if I had also pockets 6k are you for them… are not interest of file size, autofocus and more…
Every place had different clients’request.


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Blackmagic cameras don't need auto focus built in, they just need a Lidar module preferably one that connects to Tilta focus motors.

Blackmagic cameras don't need auto focus built in, they just need a Lidar module preferably one that connects to Tilta focus motors.

Like raveneye dji


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I don't appreciate the concept of categories at all. Using these "fuzzy" buckets with massive obvious overlap just confounds a conversation IMHO. I get it. It's what we do from music to movies to whatever but does it say anything? The category documentary makes the most sense of all to me. I'm using video to document something that happened. Doing so I will use a lot of techniques that would be resigned to cinema, broadcast, EMG, journalism and maybe corporate, although corporate only means that a bean counter is telling me how to do my craft which is a total oxymoron.

I guess the ultimate answer is to buy Blackmagic for cinema, commercial, music video, and high end corporate productions. Then buy Sony for everything else because that’s what they ask for.

I don’t want to buy an FX6. I only have one Sony and it’s the A7IV for Stills Photography. But if it’s necessary for my to separate and have a Sony for video I guess I’ll have to relent and get a FX6 later this year.

My hope is for Blackmagic to come out with a camera that has those features that those clients love about the Sony. But I’ll keep investing in the Blackmagic gear for my personal preferences on their image quality and features.

Plus Blackmagic has the superior menu and UI. Sony’s menu and UI is abysmal!


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Is it just the brand they want (Sony)? Or the feature (PDAF/ND)? Or the model (A7x)? Or the brand+feature+model+diversity? Is that how we are being defined now? If so they can find someone else, shoot it themselves and not bother me. I'm sure there are people willing but I don't need it that bad.

Is it just the brand they want (Sony)? Or the feature (PDAF/ND)? Or the model (A7x)? Or the brand+feature+model+diversity? Is that how we are being defined now? If so they can find someone else, shoot it themselves and not bother me. I'm sure there are people willing but I don't need it that bad.

You might be surprised. There is a wide variety of 'producer' and 'director' types. Some hire a crew (or department heads) and trust them to bring 'the vision' to life, while others will micro-manage an entire project through the entire process. Some of them are production-savvy, and some don't know the difference between a storyboard and a script. When tasked to deliver a finished video, many will rely on brand and model awareness (Sony FX, Red Komodo, Arri Alexa) without understanding which cameras would most benefit the project. Lastly, when you're doing corporate work, you have to understand that your producer/director may actually be a project manager of some sort for the client and that the video you're working on may just be one part of a larger deliverable (a client story, an RFP, a campaign asset, etc.). So... no, don't depend on a producer to know their PDAF from their IRND; quite often, they don't.

Shawn

Is it just the brand they want (Sony)? Or the feature (PDAF/ND)? Or the model (A7x)? Or the brand+feature+model+diversity? Is that how we are being defined now? If so they can find someone else, shoot it themselves and not bother me. I'm sure there are people willing but I don't need it that bad.

Most of the time the request is for a Brand. Looking for Sony or looking for Canon. Sometimes they specify the model: looking for FX6 or looking for C300iii. You get the point.

This is often in the job postings. But also when I get a cam op job they tell me what camera system they want to use and can ask where to rent locally.

Again, a recent job the producer/director literally said he hates cameras that shoot large file sizes and don’t have autofocus capabilities. He also made clear he edits in Premiere Pro and has been for 25-years.

Today’s corporate job however was fine with me shooting on my Blackmagic Cameras and in BRAW. I shot Q5 per their wishes and 29.97 fps.

They wanted him in his office. I shot on my DZOFilm Vespid Primes, and stuck to T2.8 on both cameras. Timecode sync was handled via Deity TC-1 devices, and everything worked great. Just under 256 GB total for both cameras.

And, yet, there are clients who won’t like that set up. They also won’t like such huge files sizes. It’s a fine line to walk.


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Hi there,
Maybe someone can explain. I've always wondered why Blackmagic is trolled for large file sizes? What's stopping using Braw 12/1? The size is acceptable, the quality is not worse than Sony and in my opinion the quality is even better. And many people write that film directors don’t like large file sizes.

Exactly.

This always seems to come up with the 12K.

1. The files are too big !!!
2. I’ll need some crazy computer to process the files.
3. I don’t NEED 12k for YouTube / Insta / 1920 whatever.

Anyone who says this hasn’t actually worked with the 12k camera and are just ignorantly bringing a spec prejudice.

I could point out that the file sizes are typically LESS than 4k 12 bit ProRes.
I could say that my 2017 MacBook Pro edits 12k files just fine.
I could point out that the extra colour resolution of a lot of photosites produces beautiful images that aren’t about resolution, but about making beautiful malleable robust compelling images.

Saying you don’t “need” that resolution shows you’re focusing on the wrong aspect that this camera delivers. If I can say hey it produces beautiful images for the same or less data rate than any other 12bit 4 k camera file then who cares what the resolution number is. The question should be, does it look good? Does it look better?

The show I’m doing right now with Alexa Mini LF, generates larger ProRes 4.5k files AND in dailies, no one can tell which camera shot which shots on the same scene. And that’s just ok dailies before even even done final colour.

JB

To compare.

JB

I’m guessing 12K BRAW Q1 would approximately match the media used by the 4.5K ProRes 444. And recording 8K BRAW Q1 from the full sensor would retain the size advantage John has illustrated above.

Just for you Rick

That is so impressive! Thanks, John. I’ve pretty much given up on shooting ProRes but I do record my masters in ProRes 444 XQ that requires more media than my recordings in CinemaDNG lossless and BRAW Q0.

Happy to help

JB

I've shot a lot of corporate video that they haven't told me I had to use a specific camera but they dictate the delivery format because the client is just an editor. I've pretty much decided not to take those jobs. I want to take on the edit myself which makes the format choice mine. For a number of the clients I have worked for, they can find shooters with cameras that cost little if any extra than a rental would charge. They get hours of labor for basically nothing and can queue up jobs and take 6-8 weeks to deliver a product.

… the client is just an editor… They… take 6-8 weeks to deliver a product.

For the theatrical shoots, I can shoot, edit and colour (UHD PQ, Rec.709, sRGB) three multicam videos (90-140 minutes) typically in about a week or so. Music videos or multi-day festivals are more complex and can take several weeks though and anticipate client revisions.

It’s kinda funny because I’ve been shooting a lot of corporate gigs lately and I’ve been using my Blackmagic 12k and 6k FF. The end client has said that “it’s the best stuff we’ve seen!”

I think there’s something about the image quality that hopefully corporate gigs will notice how much their projects can be elevated.

I’m doing a cyc shoot with two 12ks and two 6k FF cameras next week.

Honestly, I think the fixation on large file sizes comes down to a few factors. One is the storage space costs of storing and backing up the files. Next is the time it takes to transfer, copy, and back up. Etc. So drive speed is a factor on that level.

John Brawley you're definitely working on another level above the clients I probably end up dealing with. Some of these clients are probably far below the people you work with. But they are paying clients nonetheless that are searching for people in our field.

And, as stated sometimes it's people who have a very prejudice way of looking at all the tech.

I'm relishing in the idea of shooting 16K VistaVision on an URSA Mini Pro. Hell, I'd love to shoot 32K IMAX footage!

Some of this also comes down to the damages done by the DSLR revolution and crappy codecs that didn't take up much space that were just acceptable for the lowest form of producers.

Example Job Posting

Screenshot 2024-02-09 at 6.57.41 PM.png (127.16 KiB) Viewed 3338 times

Here's a perfect example of a job posting I just saw on Facebook. Looking for Sony FS7/FX9 or equivalent. But ultimately they're really looking for Sony or Canon with those compressed codecs. And, likely when you contact them they will say "because our other interviews were done on Sony we want to keep it consistent. So Sony is what we want."

… we want to keep it consistent..."

A bit absurd when you think about it as this implies they won’t change anything (for the better) in their lifetime. But not debatable.

Screenshot 2024-02-09 at 6.57.41 PM.png

Here's a perfect example of a job posting I just saw on Facebook. [posting by mark@weareofficial.com]. Looking for Sony FS7/FX9 or equivalent. But ultimately they're really looking for Sony or Canon with those compressed codecs. And, likely when you contact them they will say "because our other interviews were done on Sony we want to keep it consistent. So Sony is what we want."

… we want to keep it consistent..."

A bit absurd when you think about it as this implies they won’t change anything (for the better) in their lifetime. But not debatable.

I think that it would be a good idea to find out who We Are Official is: https://weareofficial.com/

I imagine that mark@weareofficial.com is principal Mark Rinehart. He's been nominated for an Emmy. Here is his bio and some of his clients and work: https://weareofficial.com/mark

The job posting says that Official, which is based in Los Angeles, has an interview coming up in Philadelphia. The interview won't be conducted in person; rather it will be conducted remotely, it appears from L.A. It seems to me that the most important words in the posting are Zoom Technology.

Edit: spelling corrected

Some of this also comes down to the damages done by the DSLR revolution and crappy codecs that didn't take up much space that were just acceptable for the lowest form of producers.

^^This

Some of this also comes down to the damages done by the DSLR revolution and crappy codecs that didn't take up much space that were just acceptable for the lowest form of producers.

^^This

Peter McKinnon on the DSLR Revolution:

Some of this also comes down to the damages done by the DSLR revolution and crappy codecs that didn't take up much space that were just acceptable for the lowest form of producers.

^^This

Peter McKinnon on the DSLR Revolution:

The options available are immense today as is the latitude of "acceptable" video. I just picked up a used Canon XC10 that I'm going to play with regarding "B" roll. Very appealing per it's size and weight. I'm not selling my Ursa or C200 just yet, lol. Admitted my only criteria is to see what I can get out of each camera not how many jobs I can land.

I'm also curious what trade show event is coming up next. Perhaps BMD will announce prior to? or even do a live event stream?

I know that it's been said countless times that BMD doesn't announce until they are ready. Shows don't play into release dates. But man... I kinda miss those days of anticipation, the giant banners with vague descriptors, etc

I'm also curious what trade show event is coming up next. Perhaps BMD will announce prior to? or even do a live event stream?

I know that it's been said countless times that BMD doesn't announce until they are ready. Shows don't play into release dates. But man... I kinda miss those days of anticipation, the giant banners with vague descriptors, etc

First week of March has traditionally seen the releases of the URSA Mini Pro & URSA Mini Pro G2. So it’s possible a release happens then with a Live Stream to announce it.

Still I agree about the Trade Show releases. Something exhilarating about it. Attendees snap a photo of a banner, and we start speculating what it could mean. Then the Live Stream Announcement from the NAB Floor. Press Interviews on the new product. It’s a great time.


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Thinking more on this…

After all of my Blackmagic experience on set and solo shooting, here’s my dream camera:

6k resolution
15-16 stops of DR
120fps
~7ms (or less) readout
3:2 Open Gate
CFast Express media
Adaptable Mount System (L, PL, EF)
Internal NDs
2 SDI outs
Touchscreen of at least 5”, if integrated into the body
V-Mount/ Gold Mount
Connectivity with a revamped Video Assist line

I think about all of the possibilities of BMD using a wireless video assist for Focus pulling, client monitoring, and on-camera connectivity…. Man that would be great

Thinking more on this…

After all of my Blackmagic experience on set and solo shooting, here’s my dream camera:

6k resolution
15-16 stops of DR
120fps
~7ms (or less) readout
3:2 Open Gate
CFast Express media
Adaptable Mount System (L, PL, EF)
Internal NDs
2 SDI outs
Touchscreen of at least 5”, if integrated into the body
V-Mount/ Gold Mount
Connectivity with a revamped Video Assist line

I think about all of the possibilities of BMD using a wireless video assist for Focus pulling, client monitoring, and on-camera connectivity…. Man that would be great

Agreed! I’d also add separate Timecode and Genlock Ports. Genlock can remain SDI, but Timecode can change to 5-Pin Lemo.

I’d also accept 6.5K VistaVision 3:2 Open Gate.

Even if the Video Assist needs a cable to connect to the camera for Camera Control I’d be fine with that option. But we do need Wireless Video Assists for focus pullers and on set monitoring. So an expanded Video Assist line with 17” & 24” Production Monitor options added.


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… we want to keep it consistent..."

A bit absurd when you think about it as this implies they won’t change anything (for the better) in their lifetime. But not debatable.

May be they are only shooter / editor and don’t know anything about color correction.
At today you can find many people that prefer to spent to have same camera of xxx to avoid (they told) the hell of matching camera (and they don’t know what is the manual white balance ).

The world is a bit strange to our eyes, but i can understand if they had few times or/and few money back.


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… we want to keep it consistent..."

A bit absurd when you think about it as this implies they won’t change anything (for the better) in their lifetime. But not debatable.

May be they are only shooter / editor and don’t know anything about color correction.
At today you can find many people that prefer to spent to have same camera of xxx to avoid (they told) the hell of matching camera (and they don’t know what is the manual white balance ).

The world is a bit strange to our eyes, but i can understand if they had few times or/and few money back.


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To me learning color correction / grading is half the fun. I love working with raw and log of different color sciences to see what I can accomplish. I'm sure I would think differently if I was trying to churn out production line videos. I can't imagine working on a video production line. I would hate that.

Thinking more on this…

After all of my Blackmagic experience on set and solo shooting, here’s my dream camera:

6k resolution
15-16 stops of DR
120fps
~7ms (or less) readout
3:2 Open Gate
CFast Express media
Adaptable Mount System (L, PL, EF)
Internal NDs
2 SDI outs
Touchscreen of at least 5”, if integrated into the body
V-Mount/ Gold Mount
Connectivity with a revamped Video Assist line

I think about all of the possibilities of BMD using a wireless video assist for Focus pulling, client monitoring, and on-camera connectivity…. Man that would be great

If you want this camera sans 6k resolution this is basically an amira. except the amira is <5ms so it can do 200fps. I love that camera. If you keep your eyes out I've had friends buy used ones for ~$6000