Ursa Cine / Launched at NAB 2024

The Pyxis camera gets my vote. I hope they improve the rolling shutter.

that's the question. has the sensor been improved?
better 1250 ISO noise?
Faster rolling shutter?

probably not, though.

Need someone to confirm if there is any improvement?

Might skip this and wait for the Pyxis Pro with faster sensor readout, better high ISO and built in ND later this year. Already got the Pocket 6K FF which is essentually the same camera.

CineD, detailed at 18m

A little bummed about the Pyxis sensor and lack of internal ND. My perfect camera would’ve used the now old 12K S35 sensor, or the sensor from the X-H2S.

I’m guessing they’ll launch one with internal ND eventually. Still, I’m very tempted to pick one up. The price is right!

Anybody want to take bets on when the Ursa Cine sensor might trickle down into a Pyxis body?

Is there a manual available for the 12K Cine camera?

I don't use EVFs, I just don't like them. So an external monitor is a must for the Penus--I MEAN--Pyxis for me.

It's funny, cause for just a little more weight and more features... you could get a use UMP G2, haha

A little bummed about the Pyxis sensor and lack of internal ND. My perfect camera would’ve used the now old 12K S35 sensor

Same. Maybe they can find a way to put that 12K sensor into that new body and add ND.

The Ursa Cine is a remarkable camera, with much care and amazing design at a remarkable price point. It seems BMD are really aiming to be taken seriously in that space. It remains to be see if it is reliable and serviceable and hopefully they will finally release a service manual for it too, like other high end camera manufacturers too.

The new box camera had to be released at the same time too, or they would have never heard the end of it. It's not something that will ever matter to me but the price will need to factor in the new EVF or the Video Assist; perhaps why they have reduced the price of that, much to my annoyance; but I should have a lot more sympathy and be ashamed of myself for the early 12K customers.

anyone having any luck opening the Ursa Cine files in Resolve or in BRAW Player?
I'm trying to download again, but...

Even more than skeptical, Nino is quite cynical about URSA Cine. Johnni is very informed and much more enthusiastic.

Wild, this is cool. I've had the 12k OLPF since last June and have really liked it — this seems like a nice direction for them pretty much all around. The 12k has already been so good having 16 stops of dynamic range out of a similar design seems like it'd be amazing. I'm also glad they refined the Ursa design instead of ditching it for a simple box (and finally figured out how to make an LCD swivel all the way around.)

Would love to get my hands on one!

There’s so much great stuff to talk about with this camera.

The big highlight for me is the sensor.

It’s totally new. Years in the making. The DR claims are valid. It’s genuinely a massive leap. I think time will show it’s very close to the very highest from other cameras.

The sensor size is a big leap too of course.

Aside from the Rental only Alexa 65 there’s no real other true cinema camera with a sensor that big that you can own.

Fuji GFX maybe? But hardly a “real” camera.

And then there’s the body. Huge improvements but honestly some of the best aren’t that noticeable till you use them. The accessories.

The EVF and the bracket it finally a versatile and great design AND so well made. There’s an extension viewfinder bracket too. The dovetail too is really terrific and flexible.

And the RS plug on the front and its integration with Arri or Preston Focos motors. The new AC focus page is truely unique.

Theres so much more to talk about but it’s so much a massive achievement.

JB

anyone having any luck opening the Ursa Cine files in Resolve or in BRAW Player?
I'm trying to download again, but...

Yes.

Loaded it in a color managed project. No adjustments at all and it looks...freaking f****ing amazing.

No need to do anything and it's already cinema ready. Add new Film Look OFX and it's pretty much done.

This is crazy.

Nino is quite cynical about URSA Cine.

Johnni is very informed and much more enthusiastic.

Neither of those comments suprises me : )

It remains to be see if it is reliable and serviceable and hopefully they will finally release a service manual for it too, like other high end camera manufacturers too.

I think this will be key tbh. At that price, while still representing INCREDIBLE value, it's not something that buyers will forgive/overlook if it conks out 1 month after warranty and can't be fixed.

Caveat: I've owned 7, no 8 blackmagic cameras and never had serious technical issues with any in over a decade.

The new AC focus page is truely unique.

John, was any of the work in the demo yours? Or have you had a chance to try it out much yet? A question maybe for your AC is what it's like working with the focus page. It seemed very nice but... kind of awkward. It's fun if you're static or on a controlled dolly etc but not much use for anything kinetic. But maybe it has features I'm not seeing yet. Still can't wait to get my hands on one here in the UK.

I am super impressed by the new URSA models. Truly "on brand." No other company could have made these. I really hope BM does well with them.

However, they are overkill for our day-to-day needs, while the 6K models are not enough. Something in the middle would suit us better. Hopefully the new large sensors will become available in a smaller more nimble body that still has XLR, SDI, etc. Maybe NAB 2025?

Caveat: I've owned 7, no 8 blackmagic cameras and never had serious technical issues with any in over a decade.

To be fair, neither have I with the Ursa broadcast G2 - it's been rock solid. The VF had to be replaced but it too has since been fine. I was just referring to a high end use case, not us small owner/operators. The Sony ENGs I had in the past all had detailed service manuals, it's pretty De rigeur.

But as John says, this is just something else and again it really is remarkable at the price, for those who can afford it. Busy Broadcast/film DOPs/Camera people I know stopped buying their own gear a few years ago but maybe, that'll change here.

anyone having any luck opening the Ursa Cine files in Resolve or in BRAW Player?
I'm trying to download again, but...

Just getting black screens here in both BRAW Player and Resolve. Will try again later.

There’s so much great stuff to talk about with this camera.

The big highlight for me is the sensor.

It’s totally new. Years in the making. The DR claims are valid. It’s genuinely a massive leap. I think time will show it’s very close to the very highest from other cameras.

The sensor size is a big leap too of course.

Aside from the Rental only Alexa 65 there’s no real other true cinema camera with a sensor that big that you can own.

Fuji GFX maybe? But hardly a “real” camera.

And then there’s the body. Huge improvements but honestly some of the best aren’t that noticeable till you use them. The accessories.

The EVF and the bracket it finally a versatile and great design AND so well made. There’s an extension viewfinder bracket too. The dovetail too is really terrific and flexible.

And the RS plug on the front and its integration with Arri or Preston Focos motors. The new AC focus page is truely unique.

Theres so much more to talk about but it’s so much a massive achievement.

JB

This right here is why I'm excited! I love the new 65mm 17K Sensor announcement! And, everything else JB says is spot on what I wanted to see in a new BMD Camera.

I think the only complaint from me is not separating Timecode and Genlock as two different connections. It's a mild complaint, but SDI for Genlock and 5-Pin Lemo for Timecode would have been fantastic. Oh well. This mainly effects LED Volume work.

I cannot wait to see footage from the 65mm sensor!

anyone having any luck opening the Ursa Cine files in Resolve or in BRAW Player?
I'm trying to download again, but...

Just getting black screens here in both BRAW Player and Resolve. Will try again later.

You have to run the new beta of Resolve?

JB

This right here is why I'm excited! I love the new 65mm 17K Sensor announcement! And, everything else JB says is spot on what I wanted to see in a new BMD Camera...I cannot wait to see footage from the 65mm sensor!

Agree, but the lenses, whew! Same pixel pitch as the 12K Cine. I'm sure there's a use case for 65mm 17K but it's not me.

I had a bit of a waffle about the new stable of cameras, I’ve come up from the OG 2.5k through most of the different cameras since. Interesting that the ‘more’ cinema focused camera didn’t get the box design, felt that maybe they were going to have a Alexa vs Alexa mini scenario

anyone having any luck opening the Ursa Cine files in Resolve or in BRAW Player?
I'm trying to download again, but...

Just getting black screens here in both BRAW Player and Resolve. Will try again later.

You have to run the new beta of Resolve?

JB

Yes I run 19 and the footage plays.

It looks insanely good.

anyone having any luck opening the Ursa Cine files in Resolve or in BRAW Player?
I'm trying to download again, but...

Just getting black screens here in both BRAW Player and Resolve. Will try again later.

You have to run the new beta of Resolve?

JB

Yep, I did but no joy - though I've since restarted system and working fine.

Resolve 19 btw... sheesh. Loads of lovely updates. They really knocked it out of the park this year.

Funnily I was least impressed by the Film Look DCTLs-lite thing on the live stream but playing around on a current project and it's VERY easy and actually I'm dialling in some amazing looks with minimal effort. So impressed.

Funnily I was least impressed by the Film Look DCTLs-lite thing on the live stream but playing around on a current project and it's VERY easy and actually I'm dialling in some amazing looks with minimal effort. So impressed.

Hook the one to thank for that.

JB

It's great. Could use a pivot slider and some more sliders to fine tune the contrast curve (toe, shoulder, black point, white point) and a "show curve" checkbox.

But I assume this may all come with time.

A simplified model of this camera, designed for a solo operator for fast-changing circumstances (location shooting, docs, etc), would sell like mad. We would be first in line.

Curious about how the weight distribution is in the body. Right now I've been shooting with a shark fin and two 98wh batteries on my 12k OLPF to help balance out my EZs when handheld/shoulder. The Cine looks to be 3 lbs heavier, but if it balances better perhaps could offset by not needing the shark fin counter weighting.

A simplified model of this camera, designed for a solo operator for fast-changing circumstances (location shooting, docs, etc), would sell like mad. We would be first in line.

+1

The footage is great, the features insane.

I’m happy to see the leap in quality and features. A the route the company is taking, the research in rvb sensor, the mentality !

But like some said, I would gladly take half of the frame rates, half the data rates, and half the size !


Would love a URSA CINE MINI, no more length to an Arri Mini


Bu, hey I will definitely rent this camera and system, but as a owner op it’s over the top ! (That media bay !)


That 65mm sensor… man this is wild ! I’d take that sensor into an overspect stills image Dad cam in seconds !!!

Freaking love what’s happening here.

There is plenty of room for another class of FF camera that comes between the Cine and the Mini lines. Yes half the frame rates, minus the M2 memory module and replace it with 2xCFExpress cards, minus side monitor, minus live stream and come in at £6.5k and it will sell.

There is plenty of room for another class of FF camera that comes between the Cine and the Mini lines. Yes half the frame rates, minus the M2 memory module and replace it with 2xCFExpress cards, minus side monitor, minus live stream and come in at £6.5k and it will sell.

That would be sweet!

Let's ask them to do it.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=199429

In the CineD podcast, Nino said "We know Blackmagic doesn't make their own sensor.." when just then, he was interrupted by Johnni who said, "no we don't know that."

I thought about this point, Arri sources their chip, and Blackmagic could in fact, and probably does fabricate their own color filter that overlays the photodiodes, which is a process of 2D inkjet printing. The readout, collation, sorting, debayering of data are uniquely BMD's own. So what is a sensor if not a sum of parts?

For all the variations we can think of to make 12K-Cine more to our liking, the bottom lines for me are:

- RGBW pixel format, same goodness as the original 12K-UMP, with white pixel DR improvers and RGB color pixels in equal numbers.

- 16 stop DR from 2.9 μm pixel pitch, up from 14 stop 2.2 μm with 12K-UMP
- 12K 2.4:1 up to 120 fps vs 75 fps on UMP
- 8K / 4K 2.4:1 up to 224 fps vs 160 fps on UMP
- Maintains support for PL and EF mount lenses
- 8.72 vs 5.62 lbs - go to gym

If it does all that, and if the +Plus kit, like Grant said it does, includes carry case, top handle, shoulder mount, OLED VF and mount, 8TB memory card, battery mount, USB cables, as stated for $16,495, then count me in, put me down for (1) on opening day of sale.

In the CineD podcast, Nino said "We know Blackmagic doesn't make their own sensor.." when just then, he was interrupted by Johnni who said, "no we don't know that."

I am sure no camera manufacturer makes their 'own' chip, not even Arri (except Sony, that is, as a huge conglomerate). Firstly you would have to have your own fabless semiconductor IP division and then you would have to order in huge quantities from the foundries that actually make them. They are flexible enough to allow for very extensive proprietary software and ancillary hardware circuit design to incorporate very innovative and extensive abilities, according to cost and final product price point.

But the b&w photodiode chip, or fab isn’t a whole camera sensor without the CFA. No other camera uses BMD proprietary RGBW array structure.

I’m surprised at Nino’s comment. Seems thoughtless implying this is an off-the-shelf sensor if it is designed by BMD as a sensor package with a proprietary CFA etc. What’s behind that uncharacteristic attitude who is usually a reliable and fair reviewer? I haven’t watched it and don’t intend to after what I’ve heard here.

Nino seemed a little dismissive throughout, "we've seen this before," "as expected," not overtly judgmental but circumspect, a contrast to Johnni who was noticeably more enthusiastic.

Nino's a good guy, and the podcast is worth watching. I just don't think he's as informed in this case as Johnni was.

The sentiment pervades, (not from this podcast), but that 12K and small pixels are a gimmick, my opinion as 12K owner. They are still smallish pixels on the URSA-Cine. And those of us that know the camera, and how BM leverages white pixels for DR benefits, know it is a proprietary, effective technique, not a gimmick.

This video I shot with the UMP 12K in late 2022, I thought accounts for itself and the small pixel, RGBW tech fairly well, viewed in the same window as the CINE-12K demo clip, for skin tones, fading light, backlit shots into the sun etc.. It was shot in 12K, uploaded to YouTube in 8K.

In the CineD podcast, Nino said "We know Blackmagic doesn't make their own sensor.." when just then, he was interrupted by Johnni who said, "no we don't know that."

I am sure no camera manufacturer makes their 'own' chip, not even Arri (except Sony, that is, as a huge conglomerate). Firstly you would have to have your own fabless semiconductor IP division and then you would have to order in huge quantities from the foundries that actually make them. They are flexible enough to allow for very extensive proprietary software and ancillary hardware circuit design to incorporate very innovative and extensive abilities, according to cost and final product price point.

Sony and Canon make their own sensors. You’re right even Arri works together with OnSemi for their sensors.

If the claim of 16 stops of DR turns out to be factual, I’m going to bet they are using some form of DGO on the Ursa Cine sensor.

If the claim of 16 stops of DR turns out to be factual, I’m going to bet they are using some form of DGO on the Ursa Cine sensor.

Very highly likely - it's how Arri get around the same - but I believe and was told here, they have for some time on the Ursa Minis, also. It's just possibly more and better ADCs, together of course with new advanced multi-tap sensors.

The 12K cameras use hi/lo pass CFA to squeeze DR. The prior DGO sensors are all from Fairchild BMCC, Pocket, MicroCC, 4.6k. The prior 12K sensor wasn’t dual gain, I don’t think this one is either.

Good Luck

What are the rolling shutter figures for 12k and 8k on the Cine 12k? The URSA mini pro 12k scored 15.7ms(12k) and 7.8ms(8k) in Cined tests

https://www.cined.com/content/uploads/2024/04/cined_ursa_cine_12K_lf_specs.jpg

Dang! Shooting 8k on the Ursa Cine has very nice rolling shutter!

If the claim of 16 stops of DR turns out to be factual, I’m going to bet they are using some form of DGO on the Ursa Cine sensor.

Here is Canon’s white paper on dual gain output sensor and image processing design:

https://nofilmschool.com/canons-dual-ga ... -explained

Dang! Shooting 8k on the Ursa Cine has very nice rolling shutter!

Although there may be several good reasons for recording 12K, I agree the 8K/full frame FOV raw capture would be a preferred choice for most use cases, providing such quick readouts. Even for delivering in 4K.

I just watched the release video and can hardly believe it. I love how low-key the presentation is. "This camera has be more expensive" and then drops the incredible price. This is so far outside my domain but I still appreciate how Blackmagic is driving things forward at their price point.

But yeah, I still want a BMPCC4K Pro with bult-in ND and articulated monitor.

Greedy bastards, aren't we?