URSA 12K banding

The other test would be a shot that changes the amount of sky in the shot.

100% sky, 90 % sky etc.

I do wonder if the codec is tripping on the amount of sky.

JB

Tripping on LSD, levels (of) sky darkened.

The file ‘12KAriaDAY_21mm_BlackMist_1_8.braw’ shows banding as well when it’s exposed to extremes. The sun is just behind the cactus. See picture.

12KAria-banding.jpg

This is psychedelic horse hockey. AriaDay are beautifully shot and without banding. And John used ND6, larger f/stop apertures to control diffraction, Q3 BRAW, proper exposure, completely unlike Mario's overexposed ETTR which I had to bring down in post 2-stops.

@Mario, I don't believe you have made an effort to reach out to BMD for support, if at all. Your camera exposure looks wrong to me. BMD are responsive to support tickets in my experience. If I'm wrong about that, feel free to prove it now. Airing out your cries for attention and a free camera in the public forum is wasted unless you fully report what you are being told by support.

@Mario, I don't believe you have made an effort to reach out to BMD for support, if at all. Your camera exposure looks wrong to me. BMD are responsive to support tickets in my experience. If I'm wrong about that, feel free to prove it now. Airing out your cries for attention and a free camera in the public forum is wasted unless you fully report what you are being told by support.

Oh please stop it!

Oh please stop it!

Good reminder. How about posting the BRAW of your moire' image, which also looks grossly pushed?

The other test would be a shot that changes the amount of sky in the shot.

100% sky, 90 % sky etc.

I do wonder if the codec is tripping on the amount of sky.

JB

Hey John,
don’t believe this would be the case.
I mean, I tested all compressions of BRAW and all of them show this crap.

Cheers!

The file ‘12KAriaDAY_21mm_BlackMist_1_8.braw’ shows banding as well when it’s exposed to extremes. The sun is just behind the cactus. See picture.

12KAria-banding.jpg

This is psychedelic horse hockey. AriaDay are beautifully shot and without banding. And John used ND6, larger f/stop apertures to control diffraction, Q3 BRAW, proper exposure, completely unlike Mario's overexposed ETTR which I had to bring down in post 2-stops.

@Mario, I don't believe you have made an effort to reach out to BMD for support, if at all. Your camera exposure looks wrong to me. BMD are responsive to support tickets in my experience. If I'm wrong about that, feel free to prove it now. Airing out your cries for attention and a free camera in the public forum is wasted unless you fully report what you are being told by support.

“My cries for attention….” this is really genius! Very perceptive! Did you study psychology? If not, you should. Yes of course, if you think also I lied about contacting BM support sure, have fun. Masturbate on it! But since I didn’t lie, i cannot report nothing, cause that was what I got from their support…so far. Oh yeah, and I also lied about my cam being 2 times at service facility for more than half a year!

By the way my footage wasn’t overexposed. No highlights were clipped, especially in the later examples.

Good reminder. How about posting the BRAW of your moire' image, which also looks grossly pushed?

It's not grossly pushed, Tom - at least I don't think it is (reference at the foot - not my image and not touched by me; apologies I should have done it before); anymore than Robert or we all pushed it, for a good reason. But you have absolutely no right to call out Mario in this way. And as I say my main job is as an editor and I have seen this before. I am not having a go at BMD support; there may be a good reason why they haven't responded here, especially if a 3rd party product may be involved and the product is out of warranty. I think without calling Mario out, who has been pretty transparent here maybe you should think first; maybe he expects too much of BMD now but that is no reason to do one on him neither...

https://tinyurl.com/yc7rt69v

I've got a drastic further test suggestion, Mario, before you throw your lovely 12K in the rubbish; you may curse me and people jump on me if it doesn't work out I'd be inclined to try it - take that Rawlite out and test again.

Hey Steve!
Will take OLPF out in a few days and test without it!
Will let you know!

Thanks!

Yes Mario, I do think you are crying for attention. Your tone was cynical, felt insincere (or lazy), and now is hostile. I'll accept blame for the latter, but I don't believe you have worked your end with BMD service as it was suggested you try.

I suspect we may be on the verge of BMD stepping in and closing out this thread; and that would be a crying shame since I really want to see the outcome of this. Save it Tom, whatever you think, it's actually irrelevant, in that respect. Mario, my friend don't come looking for me if I am totally wrong but it's just a good hunch (in my mind at least) on my part. Looking forward to the results.

I suspect we may be on the verge of BMD stepping in and closing out this thread; and that would be a crying shame since I really want to see the outcome of this. Save it Tom, whatever you think, it's actually irrelevant, in that respect. Mario, my friend don't come looking for me if I am totally wrong but it's just a good hunch (in my mind at least) on my part. Looking forward to the results.

Sure Steve, I’ll let you know in 4-5 days about my findings.
As for that person, not spending a word more on him.

Thanks!

Hang on. Thats a silly grade to say hey there’s banding !!

Of coarse it is! …and yet it isn’t, do the same thing with another clip from another sensor and you will get some complete different behavior.

I mean I’m not looking at the OPs files but no file is going to survive that kind of treatment.

You’re absolutely right. It’s not meant to see if it breaks, it’s meant to see how it breaks …I think you will be surprised how hard it was to break the ARIA files. It took 8 clips to download before I got the result I showed in post above.
On what I found so far I agree with Mario that the extreem contrast might cause this behavior on the RGBW sensor. The sun is right behind the cactus and thus the sky is very bright/hot compared to the rest of the clip.

So far only mario’s clip, your balcony scene and the cactus(with a little help) show this banding.

I’m curious did you install a RAWlite olpf on the Cine 12 K? Steve might be on to something.

No one is going to post from BMD on this forum because there’s too much information pollution.

I’m out on my mobile phone but all I see is images of the sun clipped with extreme grades as if that’s the same as the OPs issue. I can make photos from my M10 look like that just as easily and those are uncompressed DNG.

You have to take this direct to BMD.

JB

I’m out on my mobile phone but all I see is images of the sun clipped with extreme grades as if that’s the same as the OPs issue. I can make photos from my M10 look like that just as easily and those are uncompressed DNG.

Maybe you should look at a reference monitor, instead of your phone, when you can John and then make a judgement

The other test would be a shot that changes the amount of sky in the shot.

100% sky, 90 % sky etc.

I do wonder if the codec is tripping on the amount of sky.

JB

Hey John,
don’t believe this would be the case.
I mean, I tested all compressions of BRAW and all of them show this crap.

Cheers!

It’s not hard to test for?

You yourself pointed out with my shots there was a different amount of sky?

JB

I’ve got a pretty good idea of what’s expected Steve.

The OPs issue shouldn’t happen. He should follow that up with BMD.

JB

No one is going to post from BMD on this forum because there’s too much information pollution.

Everyone respects your opinions, John; I certainly do. But the only noise here was some insults that hopefully we've got beyond. There is not 'too much information pollution'; it's very simple there is banding in Mario's 12K. No one is saying this happens with all 12K BMD cameras. No one hopefully is calling BMD. As I understand it Mario fitted a Rawlite OLPF on a standard non-OLPF 12K Ursa; and from what I see from my experience in post, such as it is, this has nothing to do with codecs or bit banding. Other 12K cameras, such as yours, don't exhibit this problem BMD OLPF or standard, from what I gather. Nor does Braw produce this in other configurations. So to drill down, without prejudice to BMD, and their manufacturing, there's got to be some other reason. I have no take on Bunk's images either way; and you can all come and put me in the clown's corner if Mario's test doesn't yield results; but there you are...

Yes Mario, I do think you are crying for attention. Your tone was cynical, felt insincere (or lazy), and now is hostile. I'll accept blame for the latter, but I don't believe you have worked your end with BMD service as it was suggested you try.

I really wonder how you can come into this thread with this attitude and baseless allegations…

1. Like for me, English is not Mario's mother tongue - so a lot of tonality can get lost in translation.

2. Mario has provided samples, has been responsive to questions and did further testing as suggested. That alone is high and above an average 1 posting never came back forum complainer. And I fully understand his frustration with a flag ship product not performing as you would expect.

3. In my part of Europe (and Mario is from a well respected neighboring country of mine) people tend to deliver criticism more directly straight to the point and less packed in flowers of positivity like maybe in the US. It is just culturally different.

4. BMD support for whole EU runs still through UK. That’s like US support would be run through an outside country. Everything gets more complicated and sending a camera back and forth to UK takes really an effort since they left the EU. You can’t compare this to getting support in the US.

So it would be cool if you stop derailing this thread into something which it should not become. Thank you.

Yes Mario, I do think you are crying for attention. Your tone was cynical, felt insincere (or lazy), and now is hostile. I'll accept blame for the latter, but I don't believe you have worked your end with BMD service as it was suggested you try.

I really wonder how you can come into this thread with this attitude and baseless allegations…

1. Like for me, English is not Mario's mother tongue - so a lot of tonality can get lost in translation.

2. Mario has provided samples, has been responsive to questions and did further testing as suggested. That alone is high and above an average 1 posting never came back forum complainer. And I fully understand his frustration with a flag ship product not performing as you would expect.

3. In my part of Europe (and Mario is from a well respected neighboring country of mine) people tend to deliver criticism more directly straight to the point and less packed in flowers of positivity like maybe in the US. It is just culturally different.

4. BMD support for whole EU runs still through UK. That’s like US support would be run through an outside country. Everything gets more complicated and sending a camera back and forth to UK takes really an effort since they left the EU. You can’t compare this to getting support in the US.

So it would be cool if you stop derailing this thread into something which it should not become. Thank you.

Thanks Robert!
Well said, my neighbour! BTW, we love Graz so much. We’re there 5-6 times a year. Close to Zagreb!

Cheers!!!

No one is going to post from BMD on this forum because there’s too much information pollution.

Everyone respects your opinions, John; I certainly do. But the only noise here was some insults that hopefully we've got beyond. There is not 'too much information pollution'; it's very simple there is banding in Mario's 12K. No one is saying this happens with all 12K BMD cameras. No one hopefully is calling BMD. As I understand it Mario fitted a Rawlite OLPF on a standard non-OLPF 12K Ursa; and from what I see from my experience in post, such as it is, this has nothing to do with codecs or bit banding. Other 12K cameras, such as yours, don't exhibit this problem BMD OLPF or standard, from what I gather. Nor does Braw produce this in other configurations. So to drill down, without prejudice to BMD, and their manufacturing, there's got to be some other reason. I have no take on Bunk's images either way; and you can all come and put me in the clown's corner if Mario's test doesn't yield results; but there you are...

Thanks Steve!!!
I can’t wait to test without OLPF. A little hope on horizon! I’ll post results here as soon as I take out OLPF and get clear skies.

Cheers!

Thanks Mario, you've shown a lot of openness and diligence in taking everybody's suggestions on their own merit, and being actually prepared to try them out; to my mind that makes me want to help somebody even more!

Well said, Robert. Your English is perfect BTW; better than mine I'm ashamed to say. I think Fanboys have to realise sometimes they can actually do the brand more damage then good; I switch off at those kind of points. We are all here because we are customers who chose and use BMD products; which are brilliant but nothing's perfect. They don't need to try and ram that false preposition down our throats; people are smarter than that.

Robert, I don't want to add to this. I based my remarks that Mario was suggested multiple times, to use Blackmagic Support. Posting the samples was helpful.

There is no disrespect to European nationality of which we are transatlantic friends, no problem with translations. Mario made accusations against BMD support but did not detail them, i.e. innuendo, aspersions. If he was told by support, "Mario, that is normal behavior for the camera, or...Mario that is not normal, let us have a look at it, ..or Mario, you're item is not covered warranty, any of those three or any other possible explanations given, it would be helpful information to the topic to understand what's really going on.

It was suggested several times, that the banding is not normal, seek support from BMD. If BMD isn't giving support, detail for us the exact circumstance so that we learn something. If someone is drowning and calls for help, we dive in and rescue. But if someone sighs and rants, "somebody please help, BMD give me a new camera!" the first part becomes circumspect to the second part.

You called me out for a "baseless allegation." I give you my reasons above. It is just my opinion, expressed once. Although you were riled by what I said, the topic was not derailed, it remains just as it ever was. No one is saying Mario is not entitled to a new camera, but how are we to know if we don't have the details of such a denial, or if there was a request for one, with no citations detailed of a conversation with BMD Support? Please don't harbor resentment toward my remarks with the remaining conversations this topic would have.

Mario,

let us know how your test without the Rawlite OLPF went if you find the time to do it. I hope this gets resolved!

Robert, I don't want to add to this. I based my remarks that Mario was suggested multiple times, to use Blackmagic Support. Posting the samples was helpful.

There is no disrespect to European nationality of which we are transatlantic friends, no problem with translations. Mario made accusations against BMD support but did not detail them, i.e. innuendo, aspersions. If he was told by support, "Mario, that is normal behavior for the camera, or...Mario that is not normal, let us have a look at it, ..or Mario, you're item is not covered warranty, any of those three or any other possible explanations given, it would be helpful information to the topic to understand what's really going on.

It was suggested several times, that the banding is not normal, seek support from BMD. If BMD isn't giving support, detail for us the exact circumstance so that we learn something. If someone is drowning and calls for help, we dive in and rescue. But if someone sighs and rants, "somebody please help, BMD give me a new camera!" the first part becomes circumspect to the second part.

You called me out for a "baseless allegation." I give you my reasons above. It is just my opinion, expressed once. Although you were riled by what I said, the topic was not derailed, it remains just as it ever was. No one is saying Mario is not entitled to a new camera, but how are we to know if we don't have the details of such a denial, or if there was a request for one, with no citations detailed of a conversation with BMD Support? Please don't harbor resentment toward my remarks with the remaining conversations this topic would have.

Okay, to stop this nonsense this is the ticket number. I sent it last Monday.

Support #CVF-427-59934]: [support] Heavy banding on 12K Pro
Mario Toni Belamaric,

***This is an automated response to assist you in using Blackmagic Support.***



Welcome

Thank you for contacting us. We are sorry to hear you are having some trouble with your product. We'll do our best to get you up and running as soon as possible, so one of our team will respond shortly.

And so on…
Does this make you happy?

Mario,

let us know how your test without the Rawlite OLPF went if you find the time to do it. I hope this gets resolved!

Hey Michel!
Sure thing! I hope I’ll have results by the end of next week.
At this moment I’m on vacation and when I get back it’ll be cloudy for 2-3 days (according to Apple weather).

I’d be very happy if it’s OLPF issue.
No worries, I’ll keep you guys posted.

Fingers crossed…

Wish you all the best, Mario. It’s not acceptable for a camera at this level.
Maybe it’s the OLPF. I have tested the first generation of the 12K without one, and it didn’t show such an issue. I have had another look at my old article and one shot also had large areas of blue sky, close to the limit.

Wish you all the best, Mario. It’s not acceptable for a camera at this level.
Maybe it’s the OLPF. I have tested the first generation of the 12K without one, and it didn’t show such an issue. I have had another look at my old article and one shot also had large areas of blue sky, close to the limit.

Thanks Uli! I hope it’s OLPF.
Will let you know!

Took off Rawlite OLPF.
These pics are grabs from the clip. Problem is the sky was not completely clear, so in this case is hard to tell whether there's banding or not. I'll wait for clear sky and post then.
In the meantime BMD support has contacted me and now they have BRAW files....

Something is seriously wrong with that grade shown in last photo.
Something like starting with a Resolve Color Managed starting point and then Color Space Transforms or LUT nodes being added on top of the RCM. Or massive Saturation node adjustments.

Could you set up a project with Resolve Color Managed for the project and then open up this footage with no further node adjustments and provide of photo (Gallery Grab) of what that looks like.

Mario, you can again upload your BRAW footage to my server so I can provide a link here.

Mario, you can again upload your BRAW footage to my server so I can provide a link here.

Hey Robert!
I am sending you 3 BRAWs now. Recorded a few days ago. Those are the ones I'm talking about (hard to detect banding - no completely clear skies).

Thanks!

Mario's new samples can be downloaded from here:

BRAW sky samples

Thanks Robert!

Just to mention;

it was shot without OLPF. Not completely clear skies, therefore it might be tricky to spot banding.

Mario, I can't see any banding here in these shots. But as you say, it's difficult to tell fully and too early to call, with the slightly overcast conditions and I haven't had time to really push them. So I look forward to seeing more examples, in closer conditions to the original offending shots. Thanks.

Yes, I had a look at the new samples too and couldn't get any banding. But the sky is full with slight cloud structures probably preventing the effect. It would be better to re-test with a true blue sky.
My weather app (Weather Pro) predicts only cloudy days in the upcoming 7 days for Zagreb, so we need to wait at least a week until Mario can test again.

Thanks to you too Robert for hosting them.

Yes, I had a look at the new samples too and couldn't get any banding. But the sky is full with slight cloud structures probably preventing the effect. It would be better to re-test with a true blue sky.
My weather app (Weather Pro) predicts only cloudy days in the upcoming 7 days for Zagreb, so we need to wait at least a week until Mario can test again.

Robert, my iPhone weather and Cro meteo society predicts mostly clear skies for the next 4 days, so if I catch the it, I'll shoot it immediately.

Thanks Robert, again!!

Mario, I can't see any banding here in these shots. But as you say, it's difficult to tell fully and too early to call, with the slightly overcast conditions and I haven't had time to really push them. So I look forward to seeing more examples, in closer conditions to the original offending shots. Thanks.

Will do, Steve!!!

Cheers!

Yes, I had a look at the new samples too and couldn't get any banding. But the sky is full with slight cloud structures probably preventing the effect. It would be better to re-test with a true blue sky.
My weather app (Weather Pro) predicts only cloudy days in the upcoming 7 days for Zagreb, so we need to wait at least a week until Mario can test again.

Robert, my iPhone weather and Cro meteo society predicts mostly clear skies for the next 4 days, so if I catch the it, I'll shoot it immediately.

Thanks Robert, again!!

Seems like you will get a window of opportunity between 8 and 11 on Friday and Saturday:
https://meteo.hr/prognoze_e.php?section ... l&param=7d



I am so looking forward to visit Croatia in August again for our holidays - as every year we will be in Novigrad near Zadar. Great people, great country.

Yes, I had a look at the new samples too and couldn't get any banding. But the sky is full with slight cloud structures probably preventing the effect. It would be better to re-test with a true blue sky.
My weather app (Weather Pro) predicts only cloudy days in the upcoming 7 days for Zagreb, so we need to wait at least a week until Mario can test again.

Robert, my iPhone weather and Cro meteo society predicts mostly clear skies for the next 4 days, so if I catch the it, I'll shoot it immediately.

Thanks Robert, again!!

Seems like you will get a window of opportunity between 8 and 11 on Friday and Saturday:
https://meteo.hr/prognoze_e.php?section ... l&param=7d



I am so looking forward to visit Croatia in August again for our holidays - as every year we will be in Novigrad near Zadar. Great people, great country.

So, you'll be near us. We're on island Pag! We can meet!

Just wanted to give you an update also;
BMD support contacted me and asked for BRAW files. They said they tried to recreate banding issue from my files and weren't able to! Are they for real?? I have 2 Macs and on both of them I get banding issue with 12k files (sky). Waiting for the next step....

Okay, here it is.
It's confirmed. My camera has clear banding issues. Just now I shot clear clue morning skies, without OLPF installed. Banding is there. It's on area where deeper blue tones gradient into lighter blue tones. If the sky is uniform - one tone (luminance) there is no banding visible.

Robert, I'll be uploading BRAWs shortly so you can share them with rest of the guys to check.
If you don't see it for some reason in normal color, just isolate red channel and BAM, there it is!

The latest BRAW files of the cloudless sky can be downloaded here:

BRAW footage

Okay, here it is.
It's confirmed. My camera has clear banding issues. Just now I shot clear clue morning skies, without OLPF installed. Banding is there. It's on area where deeper blue tones gradient into lighter blue tones. If the sky is uniform - one tone (luminance) there is no banding visible.

Really sorry Mario, I really wanted this to be your solution. At least you tried everything, fair play to you for that.