60 Fps

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Andrew Deme

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60 Fps

PostTue Oct 23, 2012 8:16 pm

Have no idea how the data throughput and CPU cycles flow in the BMC but seems the simplest way to get more Frames Per Second out of this camera is to drop the bit depth from 12 to 10 or even 8. Figure the slight loss of quality for higher frame rates would be acceptable.

At least at the point of data capture there would be a whole lot information to move around inside the camera and pump to the SSD's.

Thoughts anyone ??
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: 60 Fps

PostTue Oct 23, 2012 8:29 pm

I'd definitely take a hit on bit depth and color sampling for higher frame rates. I have no idea how the hardware works though so I have no idea if that would even be possible.
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: 60 Fps

PostTue Oct 23, 2012 8:31 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I'd definitely take a hit on bit depth and color sampling for higher frame rates. I have no idea how the hardware works though so I have no idea if that would even be possible.


If it's 2.5k, 2k, 1080P, 720P, in 12-bit, 10-bit, 8-bit, I don't really mind, I'd just like to have some form of 50/60FPS RAW mode. However, obviously the best one technically possible.
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Nick Bedford

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Re: 60 Fps

PostWed Oct 24, 2012 12:15 am

ProRes 422 HQ could technically be written more than fast enough to handle it. The problem BMD may have is the camera's CPU being able to handle twice the compression processing.
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: 60 Fps

PostWed Oct 24, 2012 12:25 am

I'm sure an amount of subtle undercranking could be achieved with a future firmware upgrade at the expense of an active sensor area crop, but let's let the boys and girls at BMD release the camera they have, first.
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sean mclennan

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Re: 60 Fps

PostWed Oct 24, 2012 6:12 pm

A camera is a system. Not simply the sum of it's parts. Black Magic have designed a gorgeous system that creates a very beautiful and individual aesthetic, while providing the latitude and high(er) quality potential of RAW output. If that is what you want/need, the BMCC is perfect for you. The "point" with any RAW camera is to be compression free.

If your priority is fast frame rates, there are plenty of other cameras out there that do precisely that...quite well.

Remember, this is their **first camera**. There will be new ones in the future, no doubt.

It boggles me that no matter how well someone builds a wheel, there are always people that will want the wheel to do more. Like fly...and cost pennies...and give birth to cute puppies.

Ever see that Simpsons' episode where Homer designs a car...yeah, you're all like that :mrgreen:

This isn't just limited to this forum, but ANY and ALL forums I follow. We've become a culture that's just never satisfied...
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Andrew Deme

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Re: 60 Fps

PostWed Oct 24, 2012 6:16 pm

sean mclennan wrote:A camera is a system. Not simply the sum of it's parts. Black Magic have designed a gorgeous system that creates a very beautiful and individual aesthetic, while providing the latitude and high(er) quality potential of RAW output. If that is what you want/need, the BMCC is perfect for you. The "point" with any RAW camera is to be compression free.

If your priority is fast frame rates, there are plenty of other cameras out there that do precisely that...quite well.

Remember, this is their **first camera**. There will be new ones in the future, no doubt.

It boggles me that no matter how well someone builds a wheel, there are always people that will want the wheel to do more. Like fly...and cost pennies...and give birth to cute puppies.

Ever see that Simpsons' episode where Homer designs a car...yeah, you're all like that :mrgreen:

This isn't just limited to this forum, but ANY and ALL forums I follow. We've become a culture that's just never satisfied...


My comment has nothing to do with being satisfied or not.....not for a second, just put an idea out there.

Not sure why but sometimes people seem to want to comment on the putting out there of the idea and not the idea itself.
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sean mclennan

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Re: 60 Fps

PostWed Oct 24, 2012 6:42 pm

There IS a feature request thread...why not use it
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Andrew Deme

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Re: 60 Fps

PostWed Oct 24, 2012 6:51 pm

Have never been good with instructions....
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rick.lang

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Re: 60 Fps

PostMon Dec 17, 2012 2:51 pm

Andrew Deme wrote:Have no idea how the data throughput and CPU cycles flow in the BMC but seems the simplest way to get more Frames Per Second out of this camera is to drop the bit depth from 12 to 10 or even 8. Figure the slight loss of quality for higher frame rates would be acceptable.


Changing the bit depth on output would have little impact on the amount of processing required to get to that point. The processors would still be reading at least 16 bits from the sensor for every photosite. The floating point math would still be either 16 bits or 32 bits to derive their 12 bit log or their 10 bit log output or (shudder) 8 bit log. Remember they are not simply truncating bits from the sensor to get to the current 12 bit output.

The most likely way you would get higher frame rates is the way just about everybody does it: you reduce the active sensor area in that mode. You can reduce it to any size but you will very quickly throw away the image DNA of the BMCC. It's designed to be a 2.5K raw camera that throws in 1080p ProRes and DNxND like icing on the cake. But it's goal is a fine resolution high dynamic range cinema image coming out of the camera and into Resolve or other grading program for delivery of 2K HQ product. They may well choose to offer a higher frame rate for 720p one day but the industry is likely heading to higher resolutions, not lower, so they may simply not go there. Let others do it that don't share all the BMCC aesthetics.

The future is a battleground of conflicting desires. High frame rates at lower resolutions for some, but never higher rates than you will be able to use in a cinema. Still that effort would conflict with those who want support for the full physical sensor area in at least a 4:3 size to satiate the craving for cinematic widescreen projection and anamorphic lenses (who says the Baby Alexa can't be the spitting image of its technological progenitor). And then there's the challenge of a 4K camera needing a new sensor of course... Which conflicting demands would you really expect them to chase?

Rick Lang
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Margus Voll

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Re: 60 Fps

PostMon Dec 17, 2012 3:44 pm

Imo red "hi speed" is or at least was peace of rubbish as it makes all images so soft compared to originals.
Even from epic on 2k.

I have to agree with you here that bmc image dna is important to preserve.

if there would be some other camera in future with same properties in image dna that would be great
but if it would make degraded images then it would be useless.
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: 60 Fps

PostMon Dec 17, 2012 4:14 pm

Margus Voll wrote:Imo red "hi speed" is or at least was peace of rubbish as it makes all images so soft compared to originals.
Even from epic on 2k.

I have to agree with you here that bmc image dna is important to preserve.

if there would be some other camera in future with same properties in image dna that would be great
but if it would make degraded images then it would be useless.


I still think it's better to have a somewhat useable high frame rate mode than to have none. Surely, anything BMD could technically pull off with higher frame rates (even of it's in ProRes) would be better than 60fps h.264 video from a DSLR?
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