Veydra - M4/3 Cinema Lenses for GH4 and BMPCC

Test footage on the BMPCC:



Rick Lang
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Andy, at the risk of looking stupid, I think this video is frankly coming to some incorrect conclusions. Let some film school graduates kneecap me, but a lens that is 35mm with an f/2 aperture remains the same lens whether it is mounted on a 135 film camera or a micro four-thirds camera assuming the image circle covers full-frame,

The Veydra lenses are T2.2, not T4.4 when they are on an MFT camera. If you imagine a single photosite on the full-frame camera, and another photosite of the same size on the MFT sensor, they both receive the identical amount of light.


Rick Lang
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Your iris estimates don't make any sense. The image circle size doesn't change iris values; the f/ number is determined by the ratio between the lens' focal length and the diameter of its opening as seen from the sensor plane. So the lens f/stop is 2.2, therefore the lens' iris is f/2.2.

The T stop accounts for other factors like the transmissivity of the glass and coatings, light lost through reflections, and that sort of thing.

So according to this

skip ahead to 20:15

If the F-stop values are anywhere close to the T-stop values wouldn't these lenses be more like a:

24mm T4.4

...

No.

The guy on the video made an erroneous assumption. From the marketing material, he took the phrase "35mm equivalent" to mean "mathematically equivalent in all ways." What the marketing material actually mean was "same angle of view as an 135 still photography lens with a focal length of..."

Most marketing people don't understand AOV or f-stops. They just repeat buzzwords and try to write copy that will sell cameras.

So all they were saying was if you are used to using a 135 still-sized camera, like a 5D, this lens would have the same AOV as this other lens.

Obviously the iris diameter wont change sizes so applying the 35mm equilivents it looked like this

/ rant on

One of my pet hates are the idiotic terms "equivalence" and "crop factor".

Nothing has lead to more misunderstanding and confusion in image-making than these two terms.

Those that defend their use, as inevitably will happen here in this thread, will point to their use for explanation ideas or a perspective, but it seems to me that they do more harm than any good.

Whilst there is an underlying kernel of meaning to both of them, they've been co-opted by marketeers and online experts who push agendas that are frankly, irrelevant to motion imaging or such a small part of a much larger image making chain of decision making.

The only people that seem to use these terms tend to be those that shoot the 135 format and like to argue that it is the supreme and ultimate shooting format bar none.

rant off /

jb

/ rant on

One of my pet hates are the idiotic terms "equivalence" and "crop factor".

Nothing has lead to more misunderstanding and confusion in image-making than these two terms.

Those that defend their use, as inevitably will happen here in this thread, will point to their use for explanation ideas or a perspective, but it seems to me that they do more harm than any good.

Whilst there is an underlying kernel of meaning to both of them, they've been co-opted by marketeers and online experts who push agendas that are frankly, irrelevant to motion imaging or such a small part of a much larger image making chain of decision making.

The only people that seem to use these terms tend to be those that shoot the 135 format and like to argue that it is the supreme and ultimate shooting format bar none.

rant off /

jb

This subterfuge you hate doesn't exist in a vacuum, John. The fact of the matter is, specified lens dimensions combined with different sensor sizes is an absolute mess. My 24mm S16 lens - is that 24mm field of view on S16 film, or full frame? Odds are, almost every advertised lens size (even cine lenses) is for 135 film. Grab any lens in your kit, and unless you're shooting 135 film you'll most likely have to do some math to figure out just what the heck the field of view the lens will offer on your camera.

The reason there is so much confusion is not because of the too-common measurebators out there, it's because it IS confusing - especially when you use different cameras with different sensor sizes. There is no set standard between lenses/mounts/sensors. For us, it's come to the point of labeling our primes simply 'wide', 'med', 'long', etc., and the DP tries lenses until he and the director are happy. It's that pesky number printed on the lens body that's the real culprit here...

This subterfuge you hate doesn't exist in a vacuum, John. The fact of the matter is, specified lens dimensions combined with different sensor sizes is an absolute mess. My 24mm S16 lens - is that 24mm field of view on S16 film, or full frame? Odds are, almost every advertised lens size (even cine lenses) is for 135 film.

Nope.

Focal length is always the focal length.

Some lenses cover 135. A heck of a lot of cine lenses do not. And there are plenty of cine lenses made for covering super 16 but not 135 and that's what I see these primes as being positioned as.

Like the Zeiss Superspeeds...they made Super 16 and super 35 versions....

I know what the numbers mean for each format. I know in my head what a 25mm will give me in Super 16 or a 18mm in Super 35 or 100mm with a 2/3" sensor...

We never used crop factor or equivalence in motion imaging until 135 format stills cameras started shooting video.

The thing is terms like "wide" or "close up" are subjective anyway. It also never takes into account what you're shooting. Is it a persons face or an object like a car ? How far away are they from the camera ?

JB

Have to say I completely agree with John.

Just an aside to John's rant on crop and so on.

Blackmagic Design has even sown some seeds of confusion regarding their 4K sensor size when shooting raw versus ProRes. Raw now uses 4000x2160 photosites and ProRes is 3840x2160. So the effective sensor active horizontal dimension for ProRes remains the 21.12mm they publish, but raw has now become 22.0 mm. The does mean a horizontal increase of more than 4% to the image on the sensor and the angle of view and reduces the crop from the ProRes value of about 1.70x to only 1.636x for raw. Fun with numbers!

Edit: Of course you inevitably lose that extra horizontal width captured in raw when you produce your deliverables in a standard UHD or HD format so the increase is ephemeral.

Rick Lang
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Rick, that video had me second guessing all of my glass. What he was saying seemed logical... I sometimes think I had more fun shooting befor I tried to educate myself on all of this. I'll just flood my sensor with light and make sure what I'm shooting is interesting and that is that. I do appreciate all of the things I have learned on this forum.

Andy, your approach is spot on. I hope that video is withdrawn or amended as it will only cause confusion for people that are learning about these things.


Rick Lang
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Pledged for the five piece set about a week ago. Let's see how this turns out!

They promised me them in meter scale! Really nice

Pledged for the five piece set about a week ago. Let's see how this turns out!

They promised me them in meter scale! Really nice

Just checked the VEYDRA site and the web pages haven't changed since shortly after the Kickstarter campaign ended. The first lenses were due to be shipped in January and the widest lens due in June. Nearing the end of January, does anyone have an update?

Rick Lang
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Rick, the Kickstarter lenses are shipping Jan 30, except the 25mm which has a delay until mid Feb., due to a focus issue. The 12mm is still shipping in June.
From Ryan Avery:
Below is the current projected timing for delivery;
$25 T Shirts Reward only will be shipped by January 30th
Single Lens Rewards for Imperial focus scales except the 25mm should be shipped by January 30th
Single Lens Rewards for Metric focus scales and all 25mm Lens Rewardsshould be shipped by February 13th
All 4 and 5 Lens Set Rewards for Imperial focus scales should be shipped by February 13th
All 4 and 5 Lens Set Rewards for Metric focus scales should be shipped by February 20th
Rental Rewards should be shipped to LensProToGo by February 16th
The 12mm both Metric and Imperial versions should ship by June 2015

Cheers

Rick, the Kickstarter lenses are shipping starting Jan 30, except for the 25mm lens which is delayed until mid Jan., along with the 4/5-lens kits. The 12mm is still set for release in June 2015, Per Ryan Avery.

Cheers

Excellent, Denny! Looking forward to seeing footage.


Rick Lang
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Hey Rick!

Since i live in Europe and wanted lenses with metric indicators they ship in February, i'll update you on quality.

It should be said though that the Veydra guys have been super informative regarding everything, had a brief mail conversation with them regarding the metric thing and they responded within 5 minutes so it's all good.

Hope the lenses are as good as their customer service.

Thanks, Jonas. Going to be interesting hearing from cinematographers on these first-of-their-kind ciné primes. S35 and S16 lenses have ruled for more than a century I believe, but, who knows how MFT cinema will fare in the long term? On the BMPCC, these lenses are very similar to S16, but nearly all the have the ability of course to cover the URSA/BMPC4K (if they had an optional MFT mount).


Rick Lang
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Thanks, Jonas. Going to be interesting hearing from cinematographers on these first-of-their-kind ciné primes. S35 and S16 lenses have ruled for more than a century I believe, but, who knows how MFT cinema will fare in the long term? On the BMPCC, these lenses are very similar to S16, but nearly all the have the ability of course to cover the URSA/BMPC4K (if they had an optional MFT mount).


Rick Lang
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Rick is that true. They'll cover Super 35? I thought the coverage was much smaller. Would love to hear more on this.

Thanks, Jonas. Going to be interesting hearing from cinematographers on these first-of-their-kind ciné primes. S35 and S16 lenses have ruled for more than a century I believe, but, who knows how MFT cinema will fare in the long term? On the BMPCC, these lenses are very similar to S16, but nearly all the have the ability of course to cover the URSA/BMPC4K (if they had an optional MFT mount).


Rick Lang
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Rick is that true. They'll cover Super 35? I thought the coverage was much smaller. Would love to hear more on this.

The lenses cover MFT for sure, however S35 is a little larger, not sure.
They however, do cover Cine 35, which includes BMCC and Studio Camera/BMPCC(S16). I think they would also cover the 4K production camera, but it is not available as an MFT mount.

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Same again!
Cheers

Ryan at Veydra however, is looking into adding some Super 35 lenses in the future.

Ryan at Veydra however, is looking into adding some Super 35 lenses in the future.

That's great news! Do you know any specifics?

No, just a comment made in an interview I read.

The lenses cover MFT for sure, however S35 is a little larger, not sure.
They however, do cover Cine 35, which includes BMCC and Studio Camera/BMPCC(S16). I think they would also cover the 4K production camera, but it is not available as an MFT mount.

Yes, only one of the lenses will not cover the sensor in URSA/BMPC4K. The image circles are all defined on Matt Duclos blog.

Rick Lang
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Ryan at Veydra however, is looking into adding some Super 35 lenses in the future.

Ah, that's interesting! Good to know they are thinking about that option. Hopefully we shall know their plans by NAB2015. That's a big step for Veydra since they would be in a crowded market. Their advantage with their current series of lenses was they had no direct competitors in the MFT space.

Rick Lang
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You are right Rick,
Which is why they are committed first to The MFT market, no real "new" Cine lenses in that area, closest is Voightlander, but that is a still lens first, but does,make,a nice Cine mod, as demonstrated by Duclos. His success with MFT cine lens mods, I think, helped develop the idea for Veydra. In S35 format, you only have the very inexpensive still lens rehousing Korean lenses (Samayang) or the very very expensive Zeiss CP and new S35 Super Speeds, and other expensive glass? So I think there is a market for shooters like us, who can not afford the "top of the line", but want something better than Samayang, an OK lens, but easy to damage, and short focus throw.

I liked the Pocket Camera S16, because it reopened and expanded the smaller Cine lens market, and I can use older "used" but many in "mint" condition, S16 Cine lenses, like the Zeiss S16 Super Speeds. I also still shoot with my AF100 MFT camera, and already have Zeiss ZF lenses from that, which I had Duclos Cine Mod done (just got the famous 28mm "Hollywood" lens that still needs the mod). If I did not already have my Zeiss lenses, I would have jumped on the Veydra kit. Which is filling a need in the expanding smaller sensor MFT/S16 market. I did get the 16mm, and am looking at the 12mm when it comes out this summer, unless I find a good deal on a Zeiss 12mm super speed PL mount! ha ha, not likely now, even theses lenses have shot up in price. The Metabones Speed Booster Allows the Zeiss 35mm glass to be doable on the Pocket camera, giving close to S16 FOVs. It will be interesting to see how the two compare.
Cheers

It's a little like the search for the holy grail of lenses, complicated by the presence of the Speed Boosters that give the modest BMPCC close to a Canon APS-C FOV and slightly wider than the URSA/BMPC4K. I think the significance of the reference that Veydra is considering a S35 lens means just what you identified, Denny. There are certainly more companies making matched sets of lenses than what you listed, but they can be more expensive such as the Schneider Xenon, Xenar III, the COOKE family, etc. Agree that if Veydra can offer a matched set similar in cost to the MFT lenses, they have little competition!


Rick Lang
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My thoughts exactly Rick, I wasn't trying to make an inclusive list, just showing the price spread. The Schmeiders are towards the top of the cost list, very good lenses, but $4-6K each, och! Some mid level (cost wise) good quality prime lenses would sell.

For MFT shooters, good news today: the Veydra lens set will also include an 85mm T2.2 matched lens by the end of 2015. $899.

This was reported on the BMC user forum by gj91:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/02/17/v ... ini-prime/

Rick Lang
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Yes, the 85mm is coming. So is a new lens wider than the current 12mm coming out this June, and is expected,to be released before the year's end. I have the 16mm, and preliminary tests are looking good, very little distortion, less than my 18mm Zeiss ZF. I also have the 35mm on its way, should be here by Friday.

Denny, any source for the wider lens? What focal length? Will it be matched to the other lenses in terms of aperture and dimensions?

And if Veydra is planning on a wider lens, do you think one day they'll have a go at a matched 135mm lens? That might be physically impossible, but I don't know.

Rick Lang
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Rick, Ryan did not say what the new wide focal length, only that is is wider than 12mm. Yes, size should match the set. And 85mm on MFT is 170mm equivalent, so, it would be even more of a tele on BM cameras.

To clarify, the 12mm will ship in June but the wider lens hasn't even been finalized yet. If I was a betting man I'd bet that we won't see that lens until 2016.

Sounds like Veydra may be considering optical and mechanical design for more than one candidate focal length to determine the widest they can actually achieve and stay within the physical dimensions of the matched set of primes and have a large image circle. That's all good.

The physical dimensions are something that SLR Magic never appears to consider for their MFT lenses. They may achieve consistency though for their new family of PL mount APO primes.

When I was asking about any news of a 135mm from Veydra, I realize that would be a fairly long lens on the BMCC/BMPCC. I was thinking it might be very useful though for concerts, landscapes, wildlife, and moon shots.

Rick Lang
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Hi guys, Will there be anyone interested in a 9mm lens to cover MFT? And what about the anamorphic lens for MFT?

Theres a 10 mm /0.95 Voigländer. And a 18-35 with speedbooster turnes alsoin to a 10 mm.

A 9 mm is not that big difference.

I would like a fast 8 mm or 7 mm that covers MFT. And not a fisheye, but well corrected rectangular.

Did I hear that there was something like an 8.5mm planned for down the road? Can't remember. Anyone else remember that?

Did I hear that there was something like an 8.5mm planned for down the road? Can't remember. Anyone else remember that?

Yes, you did on the first page it was mentioned that they were developing or considering at leat developing an 8.5mm which is great for bmpcc users like me ^^.


I would like to ask you guys if anyone has actually bought a veydra mini prime? What are your impressions regarding the image not the quality of the materials of the lens. I ask this because I have yet to see some proper footage shot on these lenses, like a short film or a small video... ANYTHING! People are only talking about the specs and making sharpness reviews and color an what not! That is important but I would really like to see something that was shot on these lenses!!!!

I've been scouring the internet for months now and can't find anything. Some one please help?

I have the 16mm and 35mm Veydra prime. Outstanding build quality, smooth focus, no barrel distortion or breathing. I am still just running some in studio tests on them, weather has been off and on rain, so no actual footage available yet. Will post some footage when I get a chance. These are not little lenses. While they are smaller than Ziess CP lenses, they are slightly larger (longer and larger front ring size) and about same weight as my Zeiss ZF lenses, and about 25% bigger than SLR Magic Cine lenses. The big advantage is a nice smooth focus, that is repeatable, so you can set follow focus marks and get same focus point each time. Lens length remains the same, unlike the ZF lenses, and lens front can be locked to a matt box (80mm) without additional adapters (matt box needs a 80mm ring, however). The 16mm lens on the Pocket can be handheld, nice balance, but the Veydras shine when mounted on a rail rig using follow focus, nice and smooth focus action.

Mount on my Pocket camer is a little loose, so Ryan Avery is coming out with both a lens support to lock lens down, and a mount spacer to eliminate the "rocking on the BMPCC mount". Both are due to be available by around the end of March or early April.

Mount on my Pocket camer is a little loose, so Ryan Avery is coming out with both a lens support to lock lens down, and a mount spacer to eliminate the "rocking on the BMPCC mount". Both are due to be available by around the end of March or early April.

Really excited for this if it's coming. Do you have a link to Ryan saying that?

Me too, Alex. Ryan sent me a personal email March 5, after I let him know about the issue. I have just sent a follow up reply to him this, and he replied regarding the spacer and lens support,
"Maintenance facility is up and running. We are still finalizing the spacer and should have it ready by NAB show in 3 weeks," Ryan Avery.

Cheers Denny

José, I got the set and have been shooting with them on one project quite a bit now. Unfortunately I cannot release footage. I can only give my impressions.

Coming from stills I started off with at set of Canon 'L' glass, both zooms and primes. From there I added a set of Rokinon primes as well as a Metabones Speedbooster. I was getting ready to buy a set of Zeiss glass when these came out. It's likely that I will end up with a set of Zeiss for stills. I never or almost never use auto anything. Old school manual mostly.

But for cinema I think the Veydras are a real step up from what I was using. The long focus throw is joyful. The 16 & 25mm are absolutely amazing lenses. Love the way they go in and out of focus. The sharpness is very Zeiss-like. I have not used the longer lenses quite as much yet, so cannot comment. It takes me a long time to get used to the unique characteristics of different lenses.

I can say that the lens mounts could and should be tighter. I have yet to contact Ryan but have no doubt he'll make things right. I did not realize when they were released that I'd met him several times when he was the Schneider rep. Very knowledgeable and approachable guy.

Anyone in Toronto have a set they would like to compare against my cmount linos prime lenses?

We can do the test at our studio www.ipstudio.ca and grade it next door at www.framediscreet.com

Just got the metric version delivered. The build quality is amazing, Rokinons can't even compare with this. Consistent aperture thoughout the series. Gonna test them and write up a bit more

How do the lenses fit on you BMPCC, any play or looseness?

How do the lenses fit on you BMPCC, any play or looseness?

Feels like a perfect fit, not super super tight like the Speedbooster, but tight.