New URSA questions

So new URSA and URSA Mini came out this month. First of all I understand that Mini does not have interchangeble sensor anymore (right ?) but big URSA still does ? The original URSA was shown (at least on your website) in B4 2/3" version - now there are just PL and EF mounts available? Have you ditched the idea some of us would like to use ENG lenses? I must say I am quite dissapointed because It was a great option for us who do both television (with long eng lenses) but also some post-production projects were we would love to have 35mm sensor with prime PL lens. It would be just great all around camera usable everywhere.

Also what are the maximum frame rates for the new URSA and URSA Mini (if they differ) in HD and UHD?

While the URSA mount and sensor is swappable it's not designed to be swapped back and forth. It's intended as an upgrade path.

A B4 mount/sensor option would be better on the Mini, as it is overkill on the big URSA. So, you would need one camera set up with S35 sensor/cine mount (Big URSA), and one camera set up with smaller sensor/B4 TV mount. Or get the Mini w/Cine mount/sensor for your post-production projects, and get the new Micro TV Studio 4K camera (has options for B4 lens support) and use a good B4/MFT adapter, or hope BM puts a B4 mount directly on that camera, for your TV work. Trying to use one camera to do all, is not always the best way to go. I do two different types of productions, and have two cameras to cover the different situations. I went to a large sensor cinema type camera, with prime lenses, for my Chroma Key work, and a more traditional ENG/TV cameras for multi-camera studio shooting, with TV Zoom lenses.

Today, I would be looking at the new Studio Micro camera with B4l lens support to replace those older TV/ENG cameras for studio shooting. Too bad the Regular Studio Camera did not come with direct TV/B4 lens mounts/remote servo control support.

While the URSA mount and sensor is swappable it's not designed to be swapped back and forth. It's intended as an upgrade path.

Oh I see thats probably not an option then.

Problem these days is that the market is tight (at least at my location) and to keep business going one have to be capable of doing a lot of different things. For exapmple last week I got asked to shoot a high speed video of table tennis player. I have the sony FS700 capable of high framerate in HD but it is Super35 and I need en ENG lens for this kind of shooting. There is just no reasonably priced camera with high framerate in full HD that accepts ENG lenses natively.

I shoot high-speed action of sports all of the time...why do you need an ENG lens for it?

What camera are you using ?

The URSA with a 70-200mm for the sports...some sports will be more difficult than others with focus, but depending on your position and DOF, you can capture some awesome slow-motion shots with this camera (and the FS700, which I've used before.)

Tennis should be very easy! (Hockey is the most difficult). IMO.

Well for post production shooting why not, but we are mostly using it for live production instant replay. Zooming in and out with non parafocal lens must be fun, also 70-200 is quite short for sport even with URSA crop factor. With eng lenses the eq. focal lengths we generally use are from 300-600 and I just can't imagine doing that with DSLR lens.

Sadly there are no 2/3" cameras with hi speed recording, with exception of very expensive Sony and Grass Valley broadcast systems

Im considering an upgrade from my BMCC to the ursa mini.

My question is ,since I dont have much knowledge on this subject, will I be able to use my Nikon mount VDSLR (those Samyang ones) on the EF mount with an adapter? or is it one of those cases where I will get vignetting or something?

Also, It says on the website and on interviews with blackmagic at NAB that the camera will include the shoulder grip, but they sell them separate on the website? Also, if the camera doesn't include a battery and you need to buy one yourself why do they sell the V lock adapter on the side? I'm confused at this point. Also, if I do put a V lock battery in, can I charge it using the power cable included with the camera or will I need a separate charger?

Sorry for the unexperienced questions, there is only one way to learn and that is ask questions

Nikon DSLR (and old SLR) lenses designed for full-frame digital & film stills photography will easily cover the super 35 motion picture size sensor in an URSA. A 3rd party Nikon-to-EF lens mount adapter will allow Nikon lenses to be used on a URSA Mini. Some adapters provide lens aperture control & some do not.

The URSA & URSA Mini do not include a "shoulder grip" or shoulder mount or top handle. The URSA Mini does include a detachable side grip handle that has camera control buttons on it. The new 1080p HD-SDI Viewfinder is also optional and not included with the camera.

BMD will sell a separate Shoulder Mount Kit ...
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ccessories

... which includes a shoulder pad and camera plate with VTC-14 type quick release and 15mm rod clamps, extension arm for the side grip, and top handle.

The USRA & URSA Mini do not include a battery. BMD sells a battery mount plate kit (without a battery or charger), or you can use a 3rd party battery mount plate/battery/charger. Since the camera does not include a battery, a battery charger is also not included. Instead you would use whatever charger is designed for your 3rd party battery system.

Note: The URSA Mini will include an AC adapter to power the camera (and optional Viewfinder), but it is not a battery charger.

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Thank you for your feedback, very helpful and easy to understand

Yes I saw that the Ursa mini Includes a cable to power it without a battery, I thought maybe there was a chance you could charge the battery using the power from the camera while connected to a socket using said cable.

One more question if I may - The camera has a dual slot for the memory cards that allows you to start recording automatically on the second one once the first one fills up, but do you have to have two at all times or is it optional?

In any case, I think is a "buyers beware" sort of deal for me - a camera that seems cheap is starting to add up. For those who didnt do the math yet, here's what I understand you will need:

Camera body for the 4k EF model - $2995
V lock battery plate - 95$
V lock battery - $300 (minimum for a decent one)
Battery charger - $300 (cheapest one I could find, most likely wrong on this one)
Shoulder Kit (Personally I find it essential) - $395
Cfast 256 gb card - $938 (I have a 250ssd on my BMCC 2.5k, and it fills up fast, wouldnt buy a smaller one for the ursa mini for sure)

This adds up to $4628 give or take, depending on the deals or different models you get. I'm not counting the viewfinder, that would be another $1.495

For me, the Ursa mini seems like the perfect run and gun, perfect overall camera for a freelance filmmaker, but quite honestly at this point the workflow is starting to seem really expensive. It does bring some advantages (money wise) to the BMCC, since the Ursa's form factor allows you to save on rigs and cages that you need at all times on the BMCC. You also need external batteries on the BMCC, since 30 minutes wont get you very far anyway (although it was enough for some jobs I did in the past).

I guess what scares me the most is the current price on the Cfast cards. I know there is a thread discussing this already but man, I just wish they had put SSD's like in the BMCC. They will get cheaper in the future, but SSD's were expensive too when they started getting popular, and took them about 5 years to massively drop on price and that is counting since the moment they became popular and "mainstream". Only now you are starting to see cfast cards on different cameras other then the Arri and stuff.

Well for post production shooting why not, but we are mostly using it for live production instant replay. Zooming in and out with non parafocal lens must be fun, also 70-200 is quite short for sport even with URSA crop factor. With eng lenses the eq. focal lengths we generally use are from 300-600 and I just can't imagine doing that with DSLR lens...

If you can shoot with a HD window on the 4.6K sensor, the crop is 3.4x, so that 70-200mm lens acts like a 238-680mm lens on 135 film format.

Rick Lang
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Well for post production shooting why not, but we are mostly using it for live production instant replay. Zooming in and out with non parafocal lens must be fun, also 70-200 is quite short for sport even with URSA crop factor. With eng lenses the eq. focal lengths we generally use are from 300-600 and I just can't imagine doing that with DSLR lens...

If you can shoot with a HD window on the 4.6K sensor, the crop is 3.4x, so that 70-200mm lens acts like a 238-680mm lens on 135 film format.

Rick Lang
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As I posted in another thread, I was wrong about the assumptions shooting ProRes and with the HD windowed. Both ProRes UHD and HD are normally downscaled from the full sensor so they'll have no cropping relative to Super 35 film. And when you want to have 120 fps in HD on the URSA Mini, the camera uses the window for UHD and then downscales that in camera to the HD resolution for output. So the HD HFR crop is only 1.18x in terms of Super 35 film and 1.7x in terms of stills 135 film.

Rick Lang
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Ok, that's too much math for me. Could someone tell me what focal lenght equivalent I could have with this setup ( http://www.toneart-shop.de/blackmagic-ursa-mini-4-6k-eb-bundle.html ) in FullHD crop mode?

That Canon KJ20x8.2B IRSD is listed as 8,2-164 mm without and 16,4-328 mm with the 2x extender.

Please help me do the cropfactor math.

I can do the math for you, but I can't verify yet. I should have my B4 lens mounted early next week after my rails and lens support arrive. I'll test and report back what actually happens with the current firmware release. I welcome someone from BMD answering this query now as they know the answer. My hesitation is about whether the ProRes HD recording is derived from the HD area of the sensor or downscaled from the UHD area as in my previous post. The B4 lens doesn't cover the ProRes UHD area of the sensor so it makes me wonder if my previous post is incorrect.

For the B4 lens to give you the image you expect (no vignetting), only the ProRes HD sensor area should be used for the recording if you select 'windowed' mode for recording. That's the way we must record when shooting with our B4 lenses and the BMD B4 optical mount.

Okay, so let's assume, regardless of your frame rates, when shooting ProRes with a B4 lens, you must select 'windowed' HD and it does physically only read that 1920x1080 area of the sensor. The sensor crop would be about 3.4x. That's a slightly larger crop than a B4 lens on a 2/3" sensor would give because the BMD B4 optical adapter expands the image circle by 1.1x.

8.2mm X 3.4 = 28mm wide
164mm X 3.4 = 558mm telephoto
With 2x extender:
16.4mm X 3.4 = 56mm wide
328mm X 3.4 = 1115mm telephoto.


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Thank you for your feedback, very helpful and easy to understand

Yes I saw that the Ursa mini Includes a cable to power it without a battery, I thought maybe there was a chance you could charge the battery using the power from the camera while connected to a socket using said cable.

One more question if I may - The camera has a dual slot for the memory cards that allows you to start recording automatically on the second one once the first one fills up, but do you have to have two at all times or is it optional?

In any case, I think is a "buyers beware" sort of deal for me - a camera that seems cheap is starting to add up. For those who didnt do the math yet, here's what I understand you will need:

Camera body for the 4k EF model - $2995
V lock battery plate - 95$
V lock battery - $300 (minimum for a decent one)
Battery charger - $300 (cheapest one I could find, most likely wrong on this one)
Shoulder Kit (Personally I find it essential) - $395
Cfast 256 gb card - $938 (I have a 250ssd on my BMCC 2.5k, and it fills up fast, wouldnt buy a smaller one for the ursa mini for sure)

This adds up to $4628 give or take, depending on the deals or different models you get. I'm not counting the viewfinder, that would be another $1.495

For me, the Ursa mini seems like the perfect run and gun, perfect overall camera for a freelance filmmaker, but quite honestly at this point the workflow is starting to seem really expensive. It does bring some advantages (money wise) to the BMCC, since the Ursa's form factor allows you to save on rigs and cages that you need at all times on the BMCC. You also need external batteries on the BMCC, since 30 minutes wont get you very far anyway (although it was enough for some jobs I did in the past).

I guess what scares me the most is the current price on the Cfast cards. I know there is a thread discussing this already but man, I just wish they had put SSD's like in the BMCC. They will get cheaper in the future, but SSD's were expensive too when they started getting popular, and took them about 5 years to massively drop on price and that is counting since the moment they became popular and "mainstream". Only now you are starting to see cfast cards on different cameras other then the Arri and stuff.

Your math is off. I got a good 177wH battery that comes with a charger for $250. I liked it so much I bought a second, but that knocks a bunch of numbers off your estimate. I bought two 128GB cards for less than $90 each on ebay. They work great. Shoulder rig? I used my FilmCity FC-02 that cost $150.

So new URSA and URSA Mini came out this month.

What?

Where is there anything new for the URSA? It was all about the mini ursa as far as I can see.

For the B4 lens to give you the image you expect (no vignetting), only the ProRes HD sensor area should be used for the recording if you select 'windowed' mode for recording. That's the way we must record when shooting with our B4 lenses and the BMD B4 optical mount.

I can verify this from my recent tests with my Fujinon HA17x7.8 lens.

Interestingly, I did a test using the lens doubler engaged with the camera set to UHD windowed mode (3840x2160). The lens covered that area of the sensor fine with no vignette.

In fact, it had the same FOV as using the lens with the doubler in HD windowed mode. However, it looked to be a couple of stops darker and with CA appearing at the edge of the image.

Yes, with the doubler the diameter of the image circle is twice as large and therefore the light is 2 stops less (inverse square law). But interesting you could do that which may come in very handy for you when outdoors with lots of light so that exposure is not an issue. So that may mean if I want to cough up a few thousand dollars I could buy a B4 adapter that does HD->35 and possibly get UHD coverage too.


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It would be awesome if someone could provide some Ursa B4 footage, whether it's 4K or just HD in crop mode.

I would love to see the image quality and the degree of CA with HD lenses.

Tristan may have some to offer up shooting with his B4 lens. I'll be posting something this month hopefully but still waiting for a lens support to arrive (mid May). It's been such a joy trying to find the simplest of bits and kits in Canada... Not!

My first priority is testing my Wise CFast 2 256GB cards with all codecs and resolutions since the cards are on loan to me until I buy or return them. With taxes, my costs is over $2K CAN so I want to be sure they work in single card mode except for raw 60 fps which will be dual card recording.

My second priority is checking for camera or image problems to decide if I keep or return the camera which is fully paid for in mid-April. I'm really crippled though as the SLR Magic APO 50mm lens has not shipped yet to me. So my image quality test may be limited to the HD window! Big mistake when I didn't take the 50mm lens offered to me in February because I had no clue when I'd get a camera. Then I end up getting possibly the first Mini 4.6K PL camera in Canada! Hindsight is my best vision.

After those priorities are taken care of, then I can put together sample footage for the community, before I start my first project in early July.


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