Noobie question regarding the 4.6K Mini

I realise that the camera is not even released yet but I am puzzled by something.

The footage that has been released of the 4.6K Ursa lists the Sigma 18-35/1.8 Art as the lens used but I thought this lens was for APS-C sensors and that the 4.6K sensors are Super 35mm?

Wikipedia lists APS-C as 25.1 × 16.7 mm and the Ursa / Mini is listed as 25.34mm x 14.25mm.

Is it going to be a case of having to resort to "trial and error" (and forum information!) to find out which lenses will cover the sensor?

Obviously it is very close, but......

Thanks

K

You know this is 0.24mm difference? No one is designing lens to crop less than qauter milimeter after cover area

You would hope not

I realised after I typed the message that it was probably a stupid question but I thought it was better to ask.

I did say it was a noobie question!

Itching to get hold of the 4.6K mini - did a shoot with the 4K Ursa and loved the pictures.

It's unfortunate that it is not an industry standard to publish the image circle of all lenses. Typically this information will be ignored by photographers, but it is important for cinematographers that use so many slightly different sensors and sensor windows (crops). When a manufacturer says their lens covers APS-C, you hope they mean Nikon's version of APS-C which is larger than Canon's version of APS-C. And most lenses are designed to comfortably exceed the stated coverage area so that many APS-C lenses intended for photographic use (like all Sigma lenses) actually do cover Super 35. The same with lenses targeting MFT. Some will cover APS-C but some will not. If the manufacturers published the image circle, then we wouldn't have to wonder about coverage.

Keep in mind though, the MTF of lenses likely falls off dramatically at the edges near the image circle, so, for example, an MFT lens may look sharper edge-to-edge on an MFT sensor, but look soft at the edges on APS-C.


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Rick, this is how most lenses that offer excellent edge-to-edge sharpness work, they project a larger image circle than required and crop to the center 2/3rds of thr lens to get a cleaner image. The other method, is of course,an APO design, which reduces CA and thus increase sharpness at the edge of the lens' image circle. Cheers

And then there are the amazing and lovely large format lenses that project an image circle large enough to allow a 4x5 or 8x10 user to move the image plane around and still get a razor sharp image. Now that we're doing cinema, we're stuck with these puny super 35 and 135 sensors

Now that we're doing cinema, we're stuck with these puny super 35 and 135 sensors

Yeah, it's tough all right. I don't know how we put up with it.

We need to see Rakesh put that 8x10 camera on his shoulder, ENG style, and start filming. I think time lapse with a minute interval could work if he wants me to assist for his shoot. And I could get his 'dailies' back to him for review in about... a year?


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Yeah, while he's at it, maybe throw that new 'portable' Canon 8k on his other shoulder.

The irony is that an 8x10 would probably weigh a bit less than an Ursa... though it would be a bit awkward to balance for closeups with the 1200 mm lens.

Mastering that would be a bit of a bear, also... drum scanning the images at a measly 1200 dpi would lead to around 400 megapixel files. You'll need a pretty serious cluster to assemble that time lapse

Now I want to make a film of this just for the humor value, but I only have a 4x5 camera. Anyone have an 8x10 lying around that they'd be willing to lend as a prop?

It would make for a pretty funny parody all right. Maybe the setting could be NAB 2016 at the BMD booth as they are once again the talk of NAB with BMD's answer to the RED Weapon: the Orange Crush! The 'rails' supporting the 1200mm lens are dolly tracks, and you'll have so many 12G SDI cables coming out the back, you'll look a lot like the Predator. Tristan can be the BMD spokesperson that assures us this camera will be shipping, if all goes well, by the end of July. At which point something in the camera starts belching smoke. Evidently the refrigerator I'm wheeling behind you was not quite up to the task of cooling the sensor. Lots of fun.


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I think it's time for the "funny wagon! Have either of you ever used a 8x10 view camera? I have, had a Deardorff 8x10 wooden camera, which weight much less than an ENG camera, until you mounted a 300mm f/5.6 lens on it, then it was quite heavy, most of the weight being that very large lens. So I got a 210mm Super Angulon instead, half the weight. This is a camera you are not going to put on your shoulder, a very large tripod perhaps... Now it is time for the gentlemen in white coats to...

It would make for a pretty funny parody all right. Maybe the setting could be NAB 2016 at the BMD booth as they are once again the talk of NAB with BMD's answer to the RED Weapon: the Orange Crush! The 'rails' supporting the 1200mm lens are dolly tracks, and you'll have so many 12G SDI cables coming out the back, you'll look a lot like the Predator. Tristan can be the BMD spokesperson that assures us this camera will be shipping, if all goes well, by the end of July. At which point something in the camera starts belching smoke. Evidently the refrigerator I'm wheeling behind you was not quite up to the task of cooling the sensor. Lots of fun.

That made me laugh. I love the image of the 1200mm lens supported by dolly tracks! Genius.

Denny, waiting makes us all a little crazy! When Jason arrives in the sanatorium wagon to pickup Rakesh, Tristan, and me, I'm going to ask him to pickup you too.


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Denny, waiting makes us all a little crazy! When Jason arrives in the sanatorium wagon to pickup Rakesh, Tristan, and me, I'm going to ask him to pickup you too.


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Hi Rick
Would you mind coming by Mars(where I am spending time with Matt Damon until I can get my hands on a Video Assist ) to pick me up. Cheers. Thanks.

Denny, waiting makes us all a little crazy! When Jason arrives in the sanatorium wagon to pickup Rakesh, Tristan, and me, I'm going to ask him to pickup you too.

Thanks Rick, give,me a 5-min. Heads up, so I can be ready! "They are coming to get me hehe, their coming to get me haha!" Cheers

I think it's time for the "funny wagon! Have either of you ever used a 8x10 view camera? I have, had a Deardorff 8x10 wooden camera, which weight much less than an ENG camera, until you mounted a 300mm f/5.6 lens on it, then it was quite heavy, most of the weight being that very large lens. So I got a 210mm Super Angulon instead, half the weight. This is a camera you are not going to put on your shoulder, a very large tripod perhaps... Now it is time for the gentlemen in white coats to...

When I was first learning to use a view camera, I met someone during a workshop who had an 8x10 Ebony camera with a 1200mm Schneider lens on it. It was quite a sight.

That said, I'm pretty sure I could get one onto my shoulder, though I couldn't vouch for its stability. After all, I carried a full Cion kit along with camping and climbing gear all the way to the Sahale Glacier, and again to Robin Lakes (though I didn't take the climbing gear to Robin). Neither were easy trips

Rick, I think that would make for a great comedic film... and we can call it a fan tribute film that's a little satirical.

Of course, we can't forget to mention that the monstrosity we're demonstrating is just a prototype, the real thing will be a little bit lighter and more compact

By way of distraction from the wait:
http://www.pixoto.com/awards/5816211185598464

Leon and Denny, good to go. Our dogs are welcome too. But if we're off to Mars, I insist Anatoly come along. By the time we get to Mars, Anatoly will have figured out how to to get us home. Just in time to take delivery of the URSA Mini 6K!


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Rakesh, you're absolutely correct about that, of course the refrigerator I was pushing is a prototype and the production fridge will be the size of a dishwasher but carbon fibre, so easy to carry on my back. As for the camera, Wooden Camera has been contracted to make the final production design. You all remember that wooden camera that could do 240 fps? Well with the increase in sensor size we had to make some sacrifices and the top frame rate will only be one frame per minute. Maybe with a Mark II, we can improve.

At least it's going to be very cinematic, everyone agrees about that. Even Kholi might be interested.


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Now, what to do for a wide lens?

This looks a bit like martian technology. Rick, do you reckon you could design a carbon fibre version with a follow focus to boot?

Rare-extreme-wide-angle-Nikkor-lens-1-640x589.jpg (57.86 KiB) Viewed 3577 times

OK, we will have to send it off to,our "props dept." for a mockup, then to the design team, after they finish with Rick's 8x10 sensor camera concept.

Rakesh, no doubt, you could get the rig on your shoulder, it was getting your eye on the back screen while you balanced the rig on your shoulder. But, since this camera will have a digitial sensor, we can set it up with the new BM EVF and a Wooden Camera ext. arm to get it back to your eye.
PS, nice job on your lanscape shot. The biggest camera I used was a 11x14 industrial view camera, mounted on tracks I'm the studio. Ansel Adams shot a 8x10 a few times, but preferred the 4x5 for hiking in the field with. I know the photographer that has Mr. Adam's 8x10 camera, he keeps it under his bed!

Now, Rick, let's get this prototype camera mock up built, so Rakesh can start practicing his balancing act with it!
Cheers

Now, what to do for a wide lens?

This looks a bit like martian technology.

Not far from it.

Stanly liked it for HAL in 2001....


http://petapixel.com/2013/02/10/the-inf ... heye-lens/

jb

Thanks John, I thought that lens looked familiar!

Thankfully, I shouldn't have to worry about a follow focus for that lens. I think it can keep everything in focus from the front of the element to infinity or at least to Jupiter! What a find, Tristan. And this fellow, Mr. Brawley, again amazes with the sheer breadth of his knowledge of all things cinematic.

I hope John will act as Mission Control; if anyone knows how to get that sanatorium wagon to Mars, John can pull it off.

Illya Friedman at Hot Rod Cameras has submitted a competing design by the way so we have an alternative to the Wooden Camera. Illya's design includes rubber bumpers so if the camera should fall from Rakesh' shoulder, it will absorb the impact of hitting the ground and bounce back on his shoulder. I'm going to sleep on this one though, no need to make a decision tonight.


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We should suggest that Ilya consider calling his mod the Mountaineering Mod, since it would make the camera more tolerant to things like getting whomped against boulder during climbs and such. And hopefully also make the camera waterproof, so that one could use it to film storms and such from high elevation vantage points.

Rick, that's how modern cameras work anyway, you put the EVF on an arm and position it wherever you need it. No worries on that account.

BTW, that pic got an award on Pixoto... listed as being in the top 2% of all time, whatever that means. I got a #1 pic of the day the next day, too

Hopefully, it's a start on an actual marketing campaign

It'd be better if there were only one sensor size, one lens mount, one standard. But then shopping for lenses and cameras would be quite boring.