Flange distance issue

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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostSat Feb 23, 2013 8:12 pm

Felix Steinhardt wrote:Edit: Just ordered the Novoflex and the cheap Kiwi adapter. Let´s hope...


I tried the Kiwi adapter before buying the Novoflex and I had to return it.
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robmneilson

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 3:16 am

I just got my camera today and have had infinity focus issues as well. I'm using OCT-19 lomo lenses, with a cieco adapter. In the past I was able to fit my 18/35/75/100 on a Canon EF. At the moment only the 100mm spherical, and 50mm/75mm anamorphics focus properly.

My 18/35/75 have all been serviced in the past year, and when set to infinity they are in focus on objects about 3 ft away. Perhaps it's my adapter...but very frustrating that I have a camera, accessories, and lenses....but can't shoot with it!
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 3:20 am

Hi guys,

I want to give you an update about this issue.

The cameras are all shimmed and calibrated to 44mm as per the reported focal flange depth of EF mount. I use the term "reported" as Canon does not publish the specifications officially so the exact expected tolerances are not known.

When checked against a collimated cine lens, we expect the Blackmagic Cinema Camera to get accurate focus according to the witness marks on the lens. For example, at focus chart placed 6 ft from the camera sensor plane will be in focus when the witness mark on the lens is at 6 ft.

When I tried the same collimated lens on some 5Ds, 7Ds and even a C300, the witness marks fall short of the expected distance which indicates to me that there's some fair amount of tolerances built into the Canon cameras to cater for still lenses where the tolerances are not as critical as cine lenses.

To address this, we need to put in the same allowances. We have tested this with some of the cameras from customers reporting this and it works.

If you think you're encountering this issue, please contact your local Blackmagic Design support office and we'll sort you out.
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Bill Rich

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 3:26 am

Thank you Kristian! The quick response, follow up testing. and fix makes me feel so good about purchasing this camera!
Bill Rich
PhotoJournalist/Editor/Producer
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Cam Macduff

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 5:09 am

Yah, will contact my supplier.
Can you eleborate on what's involved Kristian?
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Sean

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 5:18 am

Kristian Lam wrote:Hi guys,

I want to give you an update about this issue.

The cameras are all shimmed and calibrated to 44mm as per the reported focal flange depth of EF mount. I use the term "reported" as Canon does not publish the specifications officially so the exact expected tolerances are not known.

When checked against a collimated cine lens, we expect the Blackmagic Cinema Camera to get accurate focus according to the witness marks on the lens. For example, at focus chart placed 6 ft from the camera sensor plane will be in focus when the witness mark on the lens is at 6 ft.

When I tried the same collimated lens on some 5Ds, 7Ds and even a C300, the witness marks fall short of the expected distance which indicates to me that there's some fair amount of tolerances built into the Canon cameras to cater for still lenses where the tolerances are not as critical as cine lenses.

To address this, we need to put in the same allowances. We have tested this with some of the cameras from customers reporting this and it works.

If you think you're encountering this issue, please contact your local Blackmagic Design support office and we'll sort you out.


Thank you for addressing this! Will cameras shipped from here on out be resolved of this problem?
Sean Scannell
Ordered EF mount from B&H on 08/19/12. Received on 04/12/13.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 6:56 am

Great to see the progress with this! one less thing to stop the camera from jumping on sets.

Now we just need MFT >:D
Kholi Hicks
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Graham Spice

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 6:59 am

Kristian Lam wrote:To address this, we need to put in the same allowances. We have tested this with some of the cameras from customers reporting this and it works.

If you think you're encountering this issue, please contact your local Blackmagic Design support office and we'll sort you out.

2 quick questions:

1) Will this fix be something we have to send our cameras in for?

2) Will this fix the problem with infinity focus on the Tokina 11-16?


Thanks very much for keeping us up to date on this problem, Kristian Lam. Much appreciated
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 7:00 am

[quote="MarshallHarrington"
Hi Kristian,

Wondering if you've made any progress.

Thanks[/quote]

I did contact Tokina but did not get a response :(
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 7:02 am

Graham Spice wrote:1) Will this fix be something we have to send our cameras in for?

2) Will this fix the problem with infinity focus on the Tokina 11-16?


Thanks very much for keeping us up to date on this problem, Kristian Lam. Much appreciated


1) Unfortunately, yes. The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated.

2) Yes, it will. However, this is on the assumption that the copy of the Tokina 11-16 is good as I've read that there are some out there with issues focusing to infinity on other cameras as well.
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Graham Spice

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 7:06 am

Excellent, thank you very much for your responses. I have contacted Blackmagic Support USA to send the camera in for recalibration asap. I did a bunch of tests today with various lenses and really need to go with something really wide like the Tokina. I hope this fixes it!
Kristian Lam wrote:
Graham Spice wrote:1) Will this fix be something we have to send our cameras in for?
2) Will this fix the problem with infinity focus on the Tokina 11-16?


1) Unfortunately, yes. The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated.

2) Yes, it will. However, this is on the assumption that the copy of the Tokina 11-16 is good as I've read that there are some out there with issues focusing to infinity on other cameras as well.
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Scott P

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 7:21 am

Graham Spice wrote:Excellent, thank you very much for your responses. I have contacted Blackmagic Support USA to send the camera in for recalibration asap. I did a bunch of tests today with various lenses and really need to go with something really wide like the Tokina. I hope this fixes it!
Kristian Lam wrote:
Graham Spice wrote:1) Will this fix be something we have to send our cameras in for?
2) Will this fix the problem with infinity focus on the Tokina 11-16?


1) Unfortunately, yes. The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated.

2) Yes, it will. However, this is on the assumption that the copy of the Tokina 11-16 is good as I've read that there are some out there with issues focusing to infinity on other cameras as well.


Did you go through the BlackmagicDesign website or is there another link? I would like my camera calibrated, but I also don't want it gone for a month either!
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nivou

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:08 am

Kristian Lam wrote:
Graham Spice wrote:1) Will this fix be something we have to send our cameras in for?

2) Will this fix the problem with infinity focus on the Tokina 11-16?


Thanks very much for keeping us up to date on this problem, Kristian Lam. Much appreciated


1) Unfortunately, yes. The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated.

2) Yes, it will. However, this is on the assumption that the copy of the Tokina 11-16 is good as I've read that there are some out there with issues focusing to infinity on other cameras as well.


Hi Kristian,

Another member here asked about the cameras that will be shipped from now on, and there was no answer if they will be factory recalibrated or they will have the same problem.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:19 am

nivou wrote:
Kristian Lam wrote:
Graham Spice wrote:1) Will this fix be something we have to send our cameras in for?

2) Will this fix the problem with infinity focus on the Tokina 11-16?


Thanks very much for keeping us up to date on this problem, Kristian Lam. Much appreciated


1) Unfortunately, yes. The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated.

2) Yes, it will. However, this is on the assumption that the copy of the Tokina 11-16 is good as I've read that there are some out there with issues focusing to infinity on other cameras as well.


Hi Kristian,

Another member here asked about the cameras that will be shipped from now on, and there was no answer if they will be factory recalibrated or they will have the same problem.


They will be have the new calibration.
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Graham Spice

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:23 am

I created a support ticket/email at blackmagicdesign.com
Scott Pultz wrote:Did you go through the BlackmagicDesign website or is there another link? I would like my camera calibrated, but I also don't want it gone for a month either!
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nivou

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:41 am

Kristian Lam wrote:
They will be have the new calibration.


Thank you Kristian for you immediate response. much appreciated
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CaptainHook

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:51 am

Kristian Lam wrote:When I tried the same collimated lens on some 5Ds, 7Ds and even a C300, the witness marks fall short of the expected distance which indicates to me that there's some fair amount of tolerances built into the Canon cameras to cater for still lenses where the tolerances are not as critical as cine lenses.

To address this, we need to put in the same allowances. We have tested this with some of the cameras from customers reporting this and it works.


Thanks Kris, does this mean that the allowances made will make collimated lenses now fall short on the BMCC like the other canon cameras, or are you able to make the allowances without causing issue for the cine lenses?
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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 10:20 am

@Kristian Lam I bought my camera new and unopened from a private customer in the US who had ordered one too much from a US based distributor. Now the camera is in Norway. Where should it be sent for re-calibration??

PS. My Norwegian distributor was utterly unable to deliver the camera I had ordered from them in August.The relative neglect of European customers by BMD (BTW, heard about Europe? 450 Million people) has been an added cost as I had to get my camera at a higher price than the advertized retailer price. And I am not alone in this situation.
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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 10:28 am

danap wrote:@Kristian Lam I bought my camera new and unopened from a private customer in the US who had ordered one too much from a US based distributor. Now the camera is in Norway. Where should it be sent for re-calibration??

PS. My Norwegian distributor was utterly unable to deliver the camera I had ordered from them in August.The relative neglect of European customers by BMD (BTW, heard about Europe? 450 Million people) has been an added cost as I had to get my camera at a higher price than the advertized retailer price. And I am not alone in this situation.


You can raise a support request on the site: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support ... lse&os=mac

They will the put you in contact with the correct agents.
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Craig

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:10 am

Thanks Kristian,

If we send our cameras in for recallibration, will they have to go to Australia or will it be local (uk for me)?
Any idea how long the process could take?

Many thanks

Craig
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:51 am

That´s great Kristian!
That restored my faith in the BMCC!

I will keep my EF order, even if I get the "old" type tomorrow and have to send it in.

My biggest fear with this camera was not that it will have problems and glitches, but that BMD will just ignore it as other companys do. That´s certainly not the case here! :)
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robmneilson

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 12:38 pm

Looks like I'm sending my camera in, would love to have this issue resolved quickly!
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John Richard

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 2:29 pm

Thank you Kristian and Blackmagic for working this out.

It is a shame that the lens companies like Canon and Tokina will not cooperate when they themselves stand to profit by selling lenses to be used on this camera. Tokina 11-16mm/2.8 was once a touted wide lens for this very camera and it helped increased Tokina sales. But they don't have the common courtesy to respond to legitimate inquiries from BM engineers working to resolve an issue involving their lenses? And what is the point of Canon withholding mechanical specifications from camera makers designed to use their EF lenses. Does Canon think that will help them sell more Canon cameras instead of Canon lenses?
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Marshall Harrington

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm

Thanks for digging into this Kristian. I can only hope that the word now goes out about the fix as quickly as it did concerning the problem. These types of responses give Blackmagic tremendous credibility.
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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:00 pm

For everyone requesting an RMA here are all the Blackmagic support locations and contacts
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/company/

I myself am a little angry that I had to pay $63 for shipping and insurance VIA UPS,
This is not a financial burden I should have to absorb.

Blackmagic Design Inc needs to somehow reimburse it's customers for this expense
as this falls squarely on there shoulders.
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sean mclennan

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:12 pm

Darryl, you are an early adopter dude. There are always going to be some unforeseen issues or compatibility problems with brand new products. This is BM's first camera and, like RED, they are finding out all the little issues that can become big issues.

There is going to be growing pains, no matter what. That should be expected really. You're getting a fix for free, but yeah...you have to ship the camera. I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
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Cam Macduff

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:19 pm

sean mclennan wrote:Darryl, you are an early adopter dude. There are always going to be some unforeseen issues or compatibility problems with brand new products. This is BM's first camera and, like RED, they are finding out all the little issues that can become big issues.

There is going to be growing pains, no matter what. That should be expected really. You're getting a fix for free, but yeah...you have to ship the camera. I don't think that's unreasonable at all.


I'd 2nd that. Just my opinion though. Everyone feels differently.
But I'm generally ecstatic about the camera's output overall.
Since this is entirely fixable, I consider it just a bump in the overall 'great ride' I'd elected to go on with BM.
As long as they continue to provide fixes where possible, I'll be happy.
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:21 pm

Sean, It's not about the money, and to some extent I agree with you, I suppose I'm really angry over the fact this is just now being addressed, I mean what the heck why didn't they catch this problem months ago?
And now I just hope I get my camera back quickly so I can go shoot, I was sick with the flu and haven't had any play time with the camera yet.

UPDATE: How about we all get a Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera T-Shirt or Baseball Cap
For our troubles? Whataya say BlackMagic Design Inc?
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sean mclennan

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostThu Feb 28, 2013 12:14 am

I hear you!

It definitely tempers the excitment of finally getting your camera, only to find this issue, that issue, etc.

Unfortunately, now that it's in the hands of the people, the issues are presenting themselves. SSD compatibles...flange problems, etc.

It's going to be a rough 6 months I think :?
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Adrian Musto

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostThu Feb 28, 2013 3:12 pm

Is this issue now going to be corrected on the cameras currently being built? :?
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Christine Peterson

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostThu Feb 28, 2013 3:47 pm

Adrian Musto wrote:Is this issue now going to be corrected on the cameras currently being built? :?

Yes: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4319&start=90#p34245
Christine Peterson

(Previously Community Relations Manager for Blackmagic Design)
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Adrian Musto

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostThu Feb 28, 2013 5:48 pm

Thanks Christine... I need my eyes checked! ;)
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Thomas Schumacher

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostThu Feb 28, 2013 11:05 pm

Christine Peterson wrote:
Adrian Musto wrote:Is this issue now going to be corrected on the cameras currently being built? :?

Yes: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4319&start=90#p34245


What about making this post a sticky? Not everyone likes to read thru' dozens of pages.
And in the end, this is some good news - rare enough around here....
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Re: Flange distance issue

PostFri Mar 01, 2013 2:07 am

Christine Peterson wrote:
Adrian Musto wrote:Is this issue now going to be corrected on the cameras currently being built? :?

Yes: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4319&start=90#p34245


Hope this question has not been addressed elsewhere on the forum:
Will the BMCC MFT cameras have any adjustment made to the flange distance prior to shipment or will BMD stick with following the accurate specifications for the MFT mount? I am hoping there is no change from their MFT specifications and the flange distance change only applies to the EF mount.

Rick Lang
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Jason Dunphy

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostFri Mar 01, 2013 2:10 pm

So is this a problem on all cameras? I have mine but I haven't tried it out on too many lenses. The ones I have work but it hasn't been on the ones people have been reporting. Should I go ahead and send mine in? Or if I find out later, can I just send it in then?
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostSat Mar 02, 2013 5:15 am

Jason Dunphy wrote:Or if I find out later, can I just send it in then?


BMD should really provide 2 years warranty in the EU, not just 1 year. EU law states a minimum of 2 years, so what's up with that, BMD?
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostSat Mar 02, 2013 5:24 am

Christian Schmeer wrote:
Jason Dunphy wrote:Or if I find out later, can I just send it in then?


BMD should really provide 2 years warranty in the EU, not just 1 year. EU law states a minimum of 2 years, so what's up with that, BMD?


I don't believe BMD is under any EU Warranty law, I think the EU Distributor/seller is, that's whats up!

I think :roll: :lol:
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

and

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bill ... U-law.html
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Re: Flange distance issue

PostMon Mar 04, 2013 9:35 am

Christine Peterson wrote:
Adrian Musto wrote:Is this issue now going to be corrected on the cameras currently being built? :?

Yes: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4319&start=90#p34245


Is it possible to make a statement from which Serial number the camera's are calibrated the right way from the factory? This could be a mayor help for people that may buying a BMCC that is shipped before re-calb. procedures.
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nivou

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostMon Mar 04, 2013 1:57 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:
Is it possible to make a statement from which Serial number the camera's are calibrated the right way from the factory? This could be a mayor help for people that may buying a BMCC that is shipped before re-calb. procedures.


I agree
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Re: Flange distance issue

PostMon Mar 04, 2013 5:07 pm

rick.lang wrote:
Christine Peterson wrote:
Adrian Musto wrote:Is this issue now going to be corrected on the cameras currently being built? :?

Yes: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4319&start=90#p34245


Hope this question has not been addressed elsewhere on the forum:
Will the BMCC MFT cameras have any adjustment made to the flange distance prior to shipment or will BMD stick with following the accurate specifications for the MFT mount? I am hoping there is no change from their MFT specifications and the flange distance change only applies to the EF mount.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Rick, as far as I know MFT is like an "opensource" mount. Canon EF is not and the flange distance problems are based in the lack of info from Canon.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 05, 2013 11:24 am

Jason Dunphy wrote:So is this a problem on all cameras? I have mine but I haven't tried it out on too many lenses. The ones I have work but it hasn't been on the ones people have been reporting. Should I go ahead and send mine in? Or if I find out later, can I just send it in then?


Jason,

Not everyone will encounter this issue. Also, if the lenses you use are fine, then there's really no need to do anything.

It will also be counter productive to try and send the camera back to be adjusted if out of say 5 lenses, one is slightly soft as it may be an issue with the lens itself.
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nivou

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 05, 2013 12:27 pm

Hi Kristian,

Is there any additional delay due to the flange distance issue? It's been some time since we heard someone getting a camera. Thank you in advance
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Jason Dunphy

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 05, 2013 4:33 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:
Jason Dunphy wrote:So is this a problem on all cameras? I have mine but I haven't tried it out on too many lenses. The ones I have work but it hasn't been on the ones people have been reporting. Should I go ahead and send mine in? Or if I find out later, can I just send it in then?


Jason,

Not everyone will encounter this issue. Also, if the lenses you use are fine, then there's really no need to do anything.

It will also be counter productive to try and send the camera back to be adjusted if out of say 5 lenses, one is slightly soft as it may be an issue with the lens itself.



That's good news. Thank you Kristian. I'm love the image I'm getting from the camera and just wanted to check and get it fixed asap if needed. The lenses I use are fine but I rent alot, so I just wanted to check. Thanks for getting back to me.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 05, 2013 10:29 pm

nivou wrote:Hi Kristian,

Is there any additional delay due to the flange distance issue? It's been some time since we heard someone getting a camera. Thank you in advance


No additional delays at all. Cameras are still shipping out as I type this. Maybe those that received it are not on the forums.
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostSun Mar 10, 2013 6:07 am

Has anyone gone through the adjustment process yet? Anyone from the UK? How long did it take?
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostSun Mar 10, 2013 6:29 am

Christian Schmeer wrote:Has anyone gone through the adjustment process yet? Anyone from the UK? How long did it take?

I'm still waiting for my camera to be returned, but I will post how long they took to fix it,
That's a given since I got no real answer when I called and asked...

What Months? Weeks? 2-3 weeks? no answer, But If I don't get my camera back soon...
They may have just purchased it as I will refuse a return if it takes longer than 3 weeks.
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 12, 2013 5:08 am

Darryl Gregory wrote:I'm still waiting for my camera to be returned, but I will post how long they took to fix it,
That's a given since I got no real answer when I called and asked...

What Months? Weeks? 2-3 weeks? no answer, But If I don't get my camera back soon...
They may have just purchased it as I will refuse a return if it takes longer than 3 weeks.


Oh, dear.. this makes me worried. I want to get the issue fixed, but I don't want to risk not having the camera for weeks or months either...
Christian Schmeer - DP / Colourist
www.christianschmeer.com
www.vimeo.com/christianschmeer
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John Richard

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 12, 2013 2:35 pm

10 business days from when they receive the cam is the time frame BM estimated. Mine has been in Fremont, CA for 5 days.

Very happy that they came up with the source of the problem and are taking care of it so quickly. I think it shows BM is a standup company.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 12, 2013 10:51 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Is it possible to make a statement from which Serial number the camera's are calibrated the right way from the factory?


Are you (Blackmagic) offering any indication in the camera packaging that the camera has been updated/calibrated?

Seems like an easy enough fix.

Thanks
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John Brawley

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Re: Flange distance issue

PostTue Mar 12, 2013 11:14 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:
Xtreemtec wrote:Is it possible to make a statement from which Serial number the camera's are calibrated the right way from the factory?


Are you (Blackmagic) offering any indication in the camera packaging that the camera has been updated/calibrated?

Seems like an easy enough fix.

Thanks


I think you'll find any cameras shipped after Kris made the announcement would have the new extra FFD tolerance built in...

jb
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Sydney Australia
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