BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

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Derek Fremd

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Jan 30, 2016 9:24 pm

My BMPCC has a decreasing amount of color saturation as I cycle the color temperature setting from 5500 down to 3200. 5500 outdoors or under daylight flourescents looks normal but at 3200 under tungsten lights the camera's image becomes totally desaturated. I sent the camera in under warranty to support and was told this was normal and my camera was functioning as it should and that the color information is there but needs to be color corrected in Da Vinci. The same message went on to suggest that the camera's sensor was designed to be optimal at 5500 and if shooting under tungsten to use a color correcting filter on the lens; i.e. an 85B. After some back and forth with support they said the camera was normal and shipped it back.

My questions are these:
1) Do other owners here have the same issue with saturation decreasing as color temp setting is decreased?
2) If this is normal and one needs to use lens filters and leave the camera set at 5500 why even bother to have a color temp selection in the menu?

Derek Fremd

PS Shooting in "Video" mode in Pro Res
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Jan 30, 2016 11:06 pm

The Pocket camera is a "cinema" camera, the color is going to look less saturated. I found you get better color and exposure results shooting in "Fi,m Log" and then setting to Rec 709 video in post using Resolve, this way you can tweek the color to the look you want, or use a color chart at the start of the shoot, and let Tesolve color correct off it.

If you are look g for high saturation color, than the Micro Studio and the Video Assist are a better choice to shoot in studio lighting conditions, as the sensor is designed for this type of shooting situation.
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Derek Fremd

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostThu Feb 04, 2016 8:44 pm

Thank you Denny. Advice duly noted. However, there is acceptable saturation at 5500 degrees. Why does the saturation/chroma level decrease in increments when lowering the color temp from 5500 on down? At 5500 everything looks nice-nice. Lower on down it's almost monochromatic...
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostFri Feb 05, 2016 2:59 am

The 3200K setting is fo traditional incandescent and quartz studio video lights tha put out a considerable amount of warm light. What lights are you testing this setting with? Not all interior lights are 3200K. Stage lights for example run at 3500K without gels. You need to meter the co,or temp,of the lighting, and then set that in the camera for best results. Outside daylight is always going to,look more saturated, you have a larger spectrum of light to work with, which modern sensors respond to with more color being displayed.

Also what is your monitor setting, video Rec 709 or film log, the Pocket can output both, and if you are using "Film Log" it will look flatter, and less saturated. If you want a more saturated do,or look in your shooting, you might consider the Micro Studio 4K, which outputs a more satiated looking video I. All color temp settings.
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RichardJolly

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSun Mar 27, 2016 11:53 am

If you are look g for high saturation color, than the Micro Studio and the Video Assist are a better choice to shoot in studio lighting conditions, as the sensor is designed for this type of shooting situation.

This has not been my experience with the BM Studio Camera. At first I could not understand why it looked so different when used alongside other cameras in a live situation in conferences and theatres. Admittedly, the other cameras are all Panasonic consumer types, such as the HC-X920 and similar, and I appreciate that consumer cameras probably tend to oversaturate to please the amateur. I tried at first to increase the colour temperature (which makes sense from what Denny Smith pointed out about stage lights running at closer to 3500K) but still had disasters - for instance, when a woman in what was clearly a scarlet dress came on stage, the BM camera reproduced it as a muted plum colour.

After some intensive testing under a soft 500W Lowel V-light, I found that the closest I could get to the Panasonic camera (and to perception with the naked eye) was Hue 155 and Saturation 68%. I cannot find a printed colour bars chart for sale so have just been working off an image with some bright blocks of colour, which is not ideal. I have tried repeatedly adjusting Lift, Gamma and Gain but don't seem to get the right result. Adjusting only Hue and Saturation still leaves the image way off the Panasonic reference, particulary lacking in green.

I would very grateful for any suggestions of how to improve the match with other cameras. I am surprised that the default setting is so unnatural. Are we meant to use a secondary colour correction device when running live cameras?
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Mark Hanlen

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSun Mar 27, 2016 4:28 pm

I do not use resolve... I use FCP 7 and Apple Color because I run a slightly older iMac. I have noticed what you describe. When shooting under my lowel tungsten lights... And my rotolight set to 3200k... When adding saturation back, my colors are pretty muted. When shooting under daylight or daylight balanced gels or the 5600k setting on my rotolight the colors are a lot more natural.

I may just start shooting 5600k at all times to see how my colors look.
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Uli Plank

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Mar 28, 2016 1:28 am

Try 4500K, it seems to be native to the sensor.
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Andrew Deme

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Mar 28, 2016 3:01 am

Derek Fremd wrote:Thank you Denny. Advice duly noted. However, there is acceptable saturation at 5500 degrees. Why does the saturation/chroma level decrease in increments when lowering the color temp from 5500 on down? At 5500 everything looks nice-nice. Lower on down it's almost monochromatic...


I know disk space is always an issue but if you use just a small part, then do what these cameras are designed to do and shoot RAW and give the other options a miss.

Only takes a few minutes to get the colors you want, save the grade, export and then throw away the large files so you can just edit the ones that make sense.

Of course if you are a highly experienced cinematographer and have the skills or ability to control the scene just the way you like it then sure, shoot compressed. Either way any of the BMD cameras are a dream come true....but for those of us that change our mind after the shot, then there are only three options RAW, RAW and RAW.
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Mar 28, 2016 5:54 am

Very few of today's lights are actually 3200K, many are closer to 4000K if you take a color meter to them. Also it takes more light with lower temp. lights to get the lighting and color saturation correct. True 3200K tungsten lights come closest to mimicking full spectrum found in sunlight, the rest of the artificial lights do not. I shoot most of my my interior / stage shots at 4K-4500, and either add more light or use a fast lens, or both. Also when using cooler light sources like LEDs, or Flos require a green-magenta shift in color balance to get the saturation/color!looking right. I use a 81, 82 or 85 warming filter to help improve color saturation in theses situations.

Light at 5000K produces roughly neutral light, whereas 3000 K and 9000 K produce light spectrums which shift to contain more orange and blue wavelengths, respectively. As the color temperature rises, the color distribution becomes cooler. This may not seem intuitive, but results from the fact that shorter wavelengths contain light of higher energy.

Also, a variety of artificial light sources lack a "total spectrum" of light, and will therefore appear less saturated than daylight, which contains a greater range of light wavelengths, which creates our perception of color and saturation. Look at a red or green object under a light that only omits a monochromatic (single) wavelength at around 600mn and the green will appear grey, and the red will look almost black, as this light source does not contain any light in the spectrum required to see red or green colors. This is a fairly complex subject, and takes time to study. Do a search on color balance vs color saturation, and light spectrum frequencies, and using filters to correct for lighting issues. This is a science in its own right, and understanding how to use this, and understanding how it reacts with film, or camera sensors, is what being a Photographer or Cinematographer, or DP is all about.

Light balance and color shifts occur for a variety of reasons, our eyes/brain correct for these based on our experience. So what looks good to you, might appear warm or cool to another. Some people prefer highly saturated colors, others less saturation. Color perception is just that, it is a Perception -- not an absolute.

How we use this, is our creative choice to, convey a mood or feeling in our images. You can balance a moon lit scene with themWB on the moon, to get white around the moon, cooler blues in the night, while the warm glow from a nearby tugsten lights in a doorway or street light add warmer looking color and more saturation. Color balance on the building and tungsten light, and the entire scene is much cooler, like the night, cold and dark, with little color saturation.
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Uli Plank

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Mar 28, 2016 8:56 am

I totally agree with these explanations.
To give you one practical example of non-continuos light: I needed some medical preparation for my footnails for a while. It was totally invisible until I visited a volcanic hot spring one day, which is sulfuric. My nails still looked normal when I left the water in the evening after dark.
But next morning by daylight they were screaming orange!
Obviously this specific wavelength is completely missing in modern artificial light sources, since that color was still invisible under all of those sources other than real daylight. Go figure…
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Mar 28, 2016 6:00 pm

My first experience with single wavelength light (other than black or uv lights) was a photographic darkroom light that emitted a single wavelength of visible light (the filter looked yellow/orangish) that the photo paper was not sensitive to, and when you took a full color photograph under it, the photo was black and white -- no color.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 18, 2017 3:53 am

I’m going to be shooting a play/dance in a theatre this week with eve URSA Mini 4.6K and SLR Magic Image Enhancer Pro so minimal filtration. I’ll be shooting hopefully 30 fps, 180 degree shutter angle, around T2.8-T4 I suspect, in uncompressed raw, 2K, 100 minutes. This is an amateur performance of a pantomime of Sleeping Beauty with live music and no dialogue.

My question is what temperature and tint would you recommend I use under modern theatre lights using the 4.6K sensor? I thought 3200 and 0 tint, but I’m wondering if I should start with 4500 in camera. Going with raw gives me a lot of latitude in post, but I’d like to shoot with something that is likely to be close so I have a good starting position.

This was a very last minute request from the director I know. But I won’t have the opportunity to test, so it’s sink or swim. I plan to shoot closer concentrating on the principal characters during the full dress rehearsal the first day and then shoot wider for the full stage for the first production with an audience the next day. Feel free to comment on this approach too.


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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 18, 2017 11:13 pm

Best bet would be if you can attend a rehearsal and look out for a lighting setup during the performance that is meant to be neutral "white" light, and while focused on a standard gray card under that lighting, set an auto white balance in the camera, note that setting and then use that setting for the performance (assuming you're using the same lenses and filter(s)).
On the Ursa Mini, tint set to zero does not mean that it's neutral and balanced. It simply the middle of the available scale. Every Ursa Mini sensor is different and will need a different tint setting. I've shot with multiple Ursa Minis at once for various projects, using identical lenses and under the same exact lighting, had them focused on the same gray chip, yet the cameras required vastly different tint settings to get to neutral white balance. Temp is usually closer among the cameras, but it's also rarely exactly the same number.
JB has reported the same experience on his multicamera Ursa Mini shoots. Some units can have variation + or - up to 30 to get it neutral, while others are neutral much closer to zero.
If you prefer a manual method for setting your white balance, check out this fantastic article by Art Adams:
https://www.provideocoalition.com/art-manual-white-balance/
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
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Uli Plank

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 19, 2017 12:45 am

My experience with the tint setting is the same – even with cameras from Red.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 19, 2017 2:55 pm

This is fine when you as DP have some control over the lights. I’ll be lucky if someone will turn on the lights for me to get a reading before the rehearsal begins. I am recording the rehearsal but since this is the first time this amateur theatre troupe has recorded a production, I’m not anticipating them making any effort to help me at all. I’ll send the director and producer a note that I do need a couple of minutes of their time. But as you know with theatre lights, there’s never anything like white light that has even coverage of the stage. It’s a hodge-podge of various colours that at times blend toward white but more often have various hues evident across the stage. So I was looking for a general setting to start with and then in post I’ll find the temperature and tint that looks best. Thanks for the feedback guys.

Update
They’ll give me some time to set exposure before the full rehearsal begins.

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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 19, 2017 8:34 pm

Rick, last time I recorded a theatrical production, I took my WB from their white spot light, this allows the color gel light to appear close to what the audience sees. You want the warm reds or cool blues to look their part. The spot should give you a basic color temp for the un-gelled lights, if they are all or mostly the same type of lighting. Mixed light sources (incandescent, LED or ?) are a different matter.

Good luck with the shoot.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostWed Dec 20, 2017 3:45 am

Thanks, Denny. I asked to have the contact information for the person in charge of lighting, but haven’t received that yet and may not. But I should be able to talk to the lighting folks before the rehearsal. I’m beginning to see why amateur theatre is called amateur. They must think doing a video of the production is just a matter of pointing a camera at the stage and hitting record.


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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostFri Dec 22, 2017 6:13 am

Rick, that is exactly what they think!
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Dec 23, 2017 4:41 am

Shoot went well for the parts of the stage that were lit. I told the director I couldn’t shoot and get a good image in areas that were not lit. I’ll try to rescue some parts where lighting overall was intentionally dark. Shot uncompressed raw 3200K ISO 800 T2.8 24 fps as it looked good to my eye in camera and looks good in Resolve. The lights were LED rated at 3300 but they warned me the ‘white’ colour varied.


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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Dec 23, 2017 7:21 am

The dialogue here is quite informative, but I find that dialing in the right color temp for a specific scene is mostly hit and miss. Raw is the way to go imho. But my question is, won't it be better to acquire a colorimeter (as Denny stated) to take the guess work out of it - especially when shooting anything other than raw ?.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Dec 23, 2017 7:42 pm

For precise and repeatable work, true. But I’m not looking for a strictly neutral look. I like my video to mimic what the eye sees for the theatrical production. So it’s actually warmer than my colour temperature reading was on the meter. But that’s what looks natural to me. I did play with it in post but ended up staying with the camera setting of 3200K.

I must say the saturation is a bit heavy using ACES cct 1.03 with Rec.709 ODT, but the client wants DVDs so that’s probably the way to go given it’s going to playback on TVs.

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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Dec 23, 2017 7:54 pm

Yes, that is the trick Rick, to get the look and feeling of the stage production lighting, and not to over correct it. That is why I get r(e co'or temp,of the stsge’s “whitel un-gelled key lights, and let the color lights go warmer or cooler. Depending on the gels they are using. This way, you can see the gelled lighting effect, as the audience does. Dark stage areas are problematic, as the “eye” can see more into shadows that the camera can.

I had a lighting assistant at the TV station, that was experienced in live performance stage lighting, and would light a scene using his “eye”. It took time to show him the camera does not “see” or record what he was seeing.

Glad the shoot went well.
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rick.lang

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 25, 2017 1:54 pm

Post was horrid though until I removed all IZotope RX Plugins (VST). I knew they didn’t support Resolve when I bought them last year, but they worked then. Not able to use them at all now, sadly. Hope to upload a nice still from the shoot at 3200K...


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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 25, 2017 4:32 pm

Sleeping Beauty 709.jpg
Using ACEScct 1.03 Rec.709 ODT so best viewed on a Rec.709 display or it will look dull. Only slight primary adjustment to emulate a Rembrandt look.
Sleeping Beauty 709.jpg (555.56 KiB) Viewed 3500 times
Last edited by rick.lang on Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Sorry to come in after the horse has left the barn.

My experience with shooting theater production for TV is that one should white balance for 3200K,
but may need to colour correct follow spots.
Follow spots are usually discharge instruments that are in the 4300k or 5500k range and may need some level of CTO and maybe minus green added.

IMO you are correct in wanting to reproduce the "bum in seat" viewing experience however be aware that primary colours may over mobulate.

Rick, I hope that you enjoyed the experience. It was one of my favourite tasks, to go into live Opera,Ballet and Theater productions for multicam TV Broadcast.
It is best to have several cameras with varying angles of view or to shoot over several nights.
Shooting different angles of view single cam.

Merry Christmas(since today is Christmas day in California).
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 25, 2017 6:48 pm

Nice postscript Leon. However, I have found shooting with the Micro/Pocket Cinema cameras doing live productions with follow spots, I start at around 4200-4500to get a clean white from the spots, and with the low saturated image of the BMMCC, this helps,lift the saturation nicely for minimal post corrections.
Happy Holidays to all :!:
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 25, 2017 8:11 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Nice postscript Leon. However, I have found shooting with the Micro/Pocket Cinema cameras doing live productions with follow spots, I start at around 4200-4500to get a clean white from the spots, and with the low saturated image of the BMMCC, this helps,lift the saturation nicely for minimal post corrections.
Happy Holidays to all :!:


Hi Denny
Would you happen to know what the follow spots sources/instruments are.(HMI,CID etc)
If you are happy with the white balance of 4200-4500 it must make the 3200 sources down in the orange range. I can see why that would work.
Do you need to ND the follow spots or can they be dimmed enough at the source?

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rick.lang

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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostMon Dec 25, 2017 9:43 pm

Leon, the pic I posted was a spontaneous moment in a group discussion after the rehearsal for that scene. I thought I would intercut footage from the rehearsal closeups with the premiere, but I ended up only using the footage of the premiere. But I loved my rehearsal image posted above as it captures the mood of the pantomime.

The theatre makes moving about for different angles impossible during live performances and since this was my first project with this client, I thought I should give them what they wanted. Maybe next time I’ll be allowed greater creative control as they told me they want me back for future productions. Putting the Fujinon zoom on the camera would make it easier to do additional close ups and medium shots.

Thanks for confirming the efficacy of using 3200K. It just looked right. I think their LED lights must have been decent quality because it was not necessary to change temperature or tint in post for the look I wanted. I did use the SLR Magic Image Enhancer Pro which should help to smooth out any LED spikes.


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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 7:04 am

Leon, I was working with older follow spots, probably HMIs. I used 4200-4500 on the Pocket Camera, and more like 3600-3800 on the AF100. Yes, I needed to stop down for the follow spots on the Pocket Camera, and had a spot setting on the AF100, which adjusted the exposure to avoid clipping the highlights.
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Ric Murray

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 1:27 pm

That still looks pretty damn good to me.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 3:53 pm

One needs to take into account that gels developed for theater use are not designed for video viewing and colour correction. They are designed to add or subtract from the colour spectrum with a reference base of tungsten white light.(+/- 3200K)
For example some blue gels have green in them and others have red.
One needs to keep that in mind when lighting for ballet for example, the "white ballets" (e.g.Swan Lake. La Sylphide) (
)the female dancers put white makeup on their skin. If you use a blue gel with red included the skin tones will go purple so you have to use blue gels with green included.

One has to remember that Video monitors are rated at 5500 Kelvin thereby adding some blue to any colour that is rated at tungsten.
The colour the eye sees in a theater setting will look different on a video monitor.

The human eye is very good at compensating.
As for the change in colour where costumes are concerned, I wonder if that may have to do with IR pollution.
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Donnell Henry

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 6:37 pm

Rick that still shot looks gorgeous. Question.. I see you used aces.. what is difference from using aces Vs the standard color space work flow? I thought aces was used just to keep files between production crews consistent. Judging from your shot I may have to try it!
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 7:28 pm

Ric Murray wrote:That still looks pretty damn good to me.


Thanks, Ric. Appreciate it. I may do a 19x13” print of that if it looks all right. I use On1 to resize images as it interpolates pixels. Just not sure going from a 1920x1080 DNG image to a 22 MB print image (5700x3900) will look right. Might crop my still to 1475x975 first and then it’s a simple 4x blowup to 19x13” at 300 dpi which may look better.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Dec 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Donnell, Jamie was instrumental in turning me on to ACES when it seemed a mystery and my attempts to apply it to an existing project looked awful. Once I started a new project using ACES, it all made sense.

The latest DaVinci Resolve has a summary of the components in ACES. For my purposes, it’s a simple implementation. ACES may have been designed with its interoperability as a key selling point as it is now easier to handoff graded material and be sure they’re seeing what you see, assuming both monitors are calibrated. It allows you to create a standard view of various colour spaces such as Rec.709 as I use for my clients requesting HD video or Rec.2020 for UHD video or P3 for theatrical release and so on.

All these deliverables are enabled by selecting the appropriate ODT, Output Data Transform. Your CinemaDNG footage is interpreted via selecting an appropriate IDT, Input Data Transform. I only use the BMD Film 4.6K V3 IDT, but some people prefer other alternatives such as an ARRI IDT even if the images were recorded in a URSA MIni 4.6K/Pro camera.

ACES has several versions, but BMD only supports 1.03 in the latest version of Resolve. Version 1.03 includes ACEScct which is all that I use. ACEScct allows you to have a shoulder on your highlights too better emulate the effect of a highlight roll off similar to actual negative colour film. It’s the best choice when shooting log. And that brings us to grading in log.

In the Resolve Colour Page, I only use the Primary adjustments that are activated selecting the Log dropdown menu item (that little down arrow to the upper right of the Colour Wheels). When you use Log adjustments, I find it easier again to get the look I want especially with regard to shadows, muds, and highlights.

Just start using it on a new Project and you may stick with it. Let me know if you need help locating these options that should be found typically in the Project Settings. The URSA MIni 4.6K/Pro camera’s are an ideal way to start using ACES since they record Log data in a very large colour space with high dynamic range. ACES is a good place to be as it is adaptable to current and future technologies so you’ll always be comfortable with your current camera and future cameras. Your raw footage will always be useful to regrade a past project easily as you’re client‘s demands alter. You may only need to change your IDT as your sensors change or change your ODT as you deliverable targets change such as from television to cinema.




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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 6:17 am

Yes Rick, your stage shot looks very good.

Leon, right you are about stage gels, being based on 3200 K lighting. IR pollution may have contributed to the color shift on the costumes.
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 7:57 am

Derek Fremd wrote:Thank you Denny. Advice duly noted. However, there is acceptable saturation at 5500 degrees. Why does the saturation/chroma level decrease in increments when lowering the color temp from 5500 on down? At 5500 everything looks nice-nice. Lower on down it's almost monochromatic...


Make sure you have the latest firmware whatever version that may be, they are not delineated very well. BM often makes changes to the color science under firmware updates that are not well documented or often even mentioned. My bmpcc looked horrid (firmware 1.42ish) under tungsten lights so I sold them and now use LED or HMI. I mostly use the micro 4K now and it looks fine with tungsten.

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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 6:22 pm

That is a wonderful rundown of ACES Rick. And a really lovely still from the theater. Nice work!

rick.lang wrote:some people prefer other alternatives such as an ARRI IDT even if the images were recorded in a URSA MIni 4.6K/Pro camera.

Those people are both wrong and insane.

rick.lang wrote: ACEScct allows you to have a shoulder on your highlights too better emulate the effect of a highlight roll off similar to actual negative colour film.

The change made to ACEScct is to add a toe, that what the "t" stands for. As I understand it, ACEScc (without the "t") uses 0 for it’s math, which makes the deepest blacks seem to stick to the bottom of the waveform no matter how you tweak the wheels. ACEScct changed the math slightly so that the color tools would work in the toe of the signal as colorists have been used to working before ACES. As for the highlights, all versions of ACES since the beginning have had rolloff built in.

And, as you're dealing with theater lighting, one issue I've experienced that may impact using ACES to grade images shot on stages lit with bright saturated RGB LED lights, the most saturated colored edges of the light can get a bit wonky. I'm not sure why it happens, but its something to do with the interaction between the v3 color matrix and ACES transforms. I'm holding out hope that BMD will someday tweak the 4.6K IDT to improve this issue.
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostWed Dec 27, 2017 9:45 pm

Thank you rick ..great explanation on its function. I’ll definitely try it on a new project. The results you’re getting is awesome .
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BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostThu Dec 28, 2017 4:02 am

Thanks for the correction, Jamie. I had thought it was adding the ‘toe’ but when I read some brief comments in the latest Resolve manual, I believe Alexis mentioned highlight rolloff so I felt I must be mistaken.

Glad you liked the example. The Sleeping Beauty co-director’s comment was succinct: OMG.


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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostThu Dec 28, 2017 4:04 am

Merci, Donnell. Good luck with ACEScct.


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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostThu Dec 28, 2017 8:03 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:And, as you're dealing with theater lighting, one issue I've experienced that may impact using ACES to grade images shot on stages lit with bright saturated RGB LED lights, the most saturated colored edges of the light can get a bit wonky. I'm not sure why it happens, but its something to do with the interaction between the v3 color matrix and ACES transforms. I'm holding out hope that BMD will someday tweak the 4.6K IDT to improve this issue.


Sounds like what you're referring to is similar to the Q "Are there any ‘gotchas’ when using ARRI cameras in an ACES workflow? Do they have workarounds?" from the FAQ here:

http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa_mini/l ... with_aces/

Image

Arri rendering on the left, ACES on the right.

Is that similar to what you're encountering?
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostThu Dec 28, 2017 4:30 pm

Hello CaptainHook

Some time back there was mention of changing the Rec 709 look that is on the BMPCC to the Rec 709 look that is in Resolve.

Is that ever going to happen?
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostThu Dec 28, 2017 11:51 pm

CaptainHook wrote:
Sounds like what you're referring to is similar to the Q "Are there any ‘gotchas’ when using ARRI cameras in an ACES workflow? Do they have workarounds?" from the FAQ here:

http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa_mini/l ... with_aces/

Image

Arri rendering on the left, ACES on the right.

Is that similar to what you're encountering?


Yep, I think that's it. Arri's example is pretty minor compared with what saturated RGB LED stage lights can end up looking like, but it looks like the same issue. So if I read it right, Arri is saying that it's an artifact baked into ACES. Changing the IDT or somehow adjusting the color matrix captured from the sensor would have no impact? So ACES needs to change the RRT instead?

With raw footage, if I bring down the saturation in the raw tab, which I believe is calculated in linear space, and then bring the saturation back up in the primary, which I assume is calculated in ACES space, it reduces the colored artifacts. That's what lead me to believe that perhaps a change to the IDT would be able to help reduce (or even eliminate) the issue.
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostFri Dec 29, 2017 8:52 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Make sure you have the latest firmware whatever version that may be, they are not delineated very well. BM often makes changes to the color science under firmware updates that are not well documented or often even mentioned.


As I recall, the latest camera firmware update to specify any changes to the BMPCC was v2 or 2.1. After that, "no changes" was reported and eventually, no mention at all of the BMPCC was made in firmware descriptions.

How exactly did you determine there were undocumented changes to color science, post 2.1?
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostSat Dec 30, 2017 12:10 am

John Paines wrote:
Howard Roll wrote:Make sure you have the latest firmware whatever version that may be, they are not delineated very well. BM often makes changes to the color science under firmware updates that are not well documented or often even mentioned.


As I recall, the latest camera firmware update to specify any changes to the BMPCC was v2 or 2.1. After that, "no changes" was reported and eventually, no mention at all of the BMPCC was made in firmware descriptions.

How exactly did you determine there were undocumented changes to color science, post 2.1?


Not post 2.1, post 1.42. When I first got the camera (firmware 1.42) the rec709 output was unusable even using a switcher's color corrector to saturate the image, under tungsten it looked like log. Somewhere along the line it got much better, where I couldn't say for sure so I advised making sure the latest firmware was installed.

Heres a quick comparison of the 2.7 and 4.7 firmwares for the Micro 4K. Notice any difference with the color? I do, this change is not mentioned in any of the release notes. It's a marked improvement in the color science of the camera, it deserves a line in the release notes.

Firmware 2.7.jpg
Firmware 2.7.jpg (591.07 KiB) Viewed 3140 times

Firmware 4.7.jpg
Firmware 4.7.jpg (560.41 KiB) Viewed 3140 times
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Jan 02, 2018 4:07 am

Yes Howard, I also noticed a nice change in the saturation levels and color rendering.
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Jan 02, 2018 9:11 am

Regarding tungsten stage light: normally tungsten bulbs for stage usage are rated 2800-3000K, while tungsten bulbs for film are rated 3200K. That is also the reason why tungsten bulbs for film have a lot less life time than bulbs for stage - higher Lumen per Watt.
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Jan 02, 2018 3:23 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Regarding tungsten stage light: normally tungsten bulbs for stage usage are rated 2800-3000K, while tungsten bulbs for film are rated 3200K. That is also the reason why tungsten bulbs for film have a lot less life time than bulbs for stage - higher Lumen per Watt.


IMO the fact that lighting instruments with tungsten bulbs used for filmmaking are constantly being transported, moved while hot and bumped around has more to do with the damage incurred to the filament and therefore less life time than different colour temp.

My experience has been different, I believe that I have worked with theater instruments rated closer to 3200k than 2800k (at full voltage). If your dimmers are incorrectly set and do not give you full voltage then yes you will have instruments at a lower Kelvin rating.
The practice is to heat your instruments to full at a lamp check before the theater show to remove any carbon that may be on the quartz.
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Jan 02, 2018 5:58 pm

Leon, just check the data sheets:

Osram OS64672 500W/230V M40 GY9,5 life span: 2000 hours / 2900 K / 8500 Lumen

Osram OS64670 500W/230V T25/T18 GY9,5 life span: 300 hours / 3000 K / 11000 Lumen

Osram OS64674 500W/240V CP82 FRH Gy9.5 life span: 200 hours / 3200 K / 13500 Lumen

Osram OS64680 500W/230V A1/244 GY 9,5 life span: 50 hours / 3200 K / 14500 Lumen
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Re: BMPCC lack of saturation at 3200K

PostTue Jan 02, 2018 7:43 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Leon, just check the data sheets:


Robert, thanks for the info.
Will do.
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