Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

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Sergey Goncharov

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostFri Sep 07, 2012 10:37 pm

I apologize for my English.
Alexander, maybe you did not understand it to the settings. Here's the same frame. The first picture taken in ACR off with noise reduction, the second in DaVinci. I think the difference in quality debayering minimal.

Image
Image

The picture was fitted "by eye"
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 4:07 am

That looks correct Sergey. How does the original skateboard shot now compare?
Peter
DaVinci Resolve Product Manager
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 9:29 am

Sergey Goncharov wrote:I apologize for my English.
Alexander, maybe you did not understand it to the settings.


Thanks, Sergey!
You are right - i missed it. I take Luminance Noise Reduction to 0, but forgot about Color Noise Reduction.
But try compare Davinci with ACR on a skateboard shot. Difference is huge. ACR retain brown texture on a Zion Whole Sale signboard, and Davinci make it horrible yellow solid color without any texture.

DaVinci -
Image

Adobe (take Noise Reduction to 0, Luminance and Color) -
Image


And one more thing I want pay attention to (mostly its for Peter and other peoples from Blackmagic team) - raw conversion is one of most important part in modern postproduction. Your camera as good, as your raw processing app can make it. Just compare r3d with different version of color science.
Blackmagic give us Resolve lic with camera and its great peace of software (I use it since first batch of Resolve for Mac became available in Ukraine). But raw conversion of CinemaDNG in resolve pretty basic, and more important that result are not stellar. In my opinion it`s more important to get a better results, than realtime when we make transition from raw to DI format like prores or dnxhd. As of today I force not to use Resolve, but to go with ACR route, and thats huge bottleneck in postprocessing pipeline. In my opinion Blackmagic just should not give up to make Resolve comparable with ACR, or even better! Or write separate app to make raw conversion not in realtime, but with max quality possible.
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Sergey Goncharov

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 12:54 pm

Yes, the frame with skateboarder shows the complete failure of BMD.
Made in ACR
Image

Unfortunately, DaVinci can not be so. I hope that in the next generation Davintsi BM redo work with hilight.
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AndreasK

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 2:53 pm

Perfect example Sergey, this scene is exactly why I'm interested in the BMCC and the raw-process. Having a lot of experience with photos and AdobeRaw/Lightroom this is exactly what I was hoping to achieve with the BMCC. Tough when I see that davinci resolve fails totally at this task I'm a little bit worried :(

Can you post your ACR settings for this result? And did you try cineformRaw? Maybe that works better ?
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Image
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 8:51 pm

Thanks for the feedback. We continue to strive for improvement and if you could share a link to the source dng to our support email davincihelp (at) blackmagicdesign (dot) com then our algorithm guys we can explore this further.
Peter
DaVinci Resolve Product Manager
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSat Sep 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Peter,
This is not my footage, i haven't camera :(
This is Ty Evans -
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=427
exposure test:
http://wtrns.fr/81e28Aw61yL33-6
Frame001250.dng
I sent this frame to e-mail.
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Nick Bedford

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 12:15 am

I too found the raw conversion to be very "basic" compared to Adobe Camera Raw, not to mention I ended up with banding in the final ProRes 422 HQ output. Yet in Final Cut Pro X with ProRes film log footage, it held up and looked wonderful. No banding at all. Maybe I missed some vital setting, but I shouldn't have to.

To be honest, given the all-encompassing nature of the process of raw conversion in ACR, I would have expected much better tools in Resolve than what we currently have (or at least what Resolve 9 Lite has). I understand that there are all the normal correction tools already, but in ACR, you convert your raw file to a final perfected image ready for any post work (compositing, keying etc etc), not something to then colour correct.
Nick Bedford, Photographer
http://www.nickbedford.com/
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CaptainHook

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 6:56 am

Well thats interesting because i would think the Prores log files would have been debayered using similar if not the same algorithms as Resolve (in the interview with Grant Petty he said as much). And i would guess the GM release of 9 has an updated (better?) version than the one in the camera at the time that John shot the prores footage. I think this is a case of so many people new to resolve not knowing how to get the best out of it. I certainly didn't find my prores grading of John's footage better than raw (are you saying you found the prores better to grade? i can't tell..) but it was different and i compared them here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=374&start=10#p2144

Adobe has a long history of debayering raw, indeed giving it an edge for some tasks shown in this thread. But i think Capture One is even better at producing pleasing images from raw than adobe. Which is more important to me than the extreme image recovery attempts in this thread. 5 stop recovery? I'm generally doing 1 stop overall adjustments at most in Capture One for raw stills. Anything more than 2 i would consider a screw up. :D I know for Johns footage dropping down around 2 stops was standard for some shots in Resolve (in capture one the default actually showed the raws being slightly dark needing a boost!!) but it's because he exposed for the highlights to get maximum dynamic range in raw from the BMC. His exposure's were not accidental or mistakes.

Also, i get what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph but all the "normal correction tools" are still manipulating the raw data as far as i understand it.. (Peter?) So the point of resolve in that case IS to convert the raw into a final perfected image colour wise just as it is with adobe. And i don't think it's toolset for colour is lacking compared to ACR. I would argue the opposite except for the cases of image recovery. One would hope 'recovery' is the exception we deal with though, not the rule. :P
https://vimeo.com/acoupleofnightowls/
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AndreasK

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 10:38 am

I agree that -5 is a little bit crazy but it proves the point that there IS the information in the raw file and it can be recovered, adobe can :)

What more, if you download the whole package with all the frames there are other frames where the exposure is darker. I like best one that is a little bit less exposed, where i go only -2.5 and some highlight recovery so that I don't have to push the shadows that much. The information in the highlight (even if -2.5) is perfectly there in the raw file.

On the other hand, if you take a darker frame where you just use -1 or even no exposure correction at all just some highlight recovery and then push the shadows it gets VERY noisy. So overexposing or exposing that the highlights are just not clipped in the raw seems to be the best idea. As far as I know what you see/get in Lightroom is a 8 bit image, therefore if you expose it so that the highlights are just not clipped in the raw you have to bring the exposure down to map it to the 8bit colorspace, correct me if I'm wrong, not sure about this one
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 4:10 pm

Ok!
I take correctly exposed material to test what result i will have with ACR. I use ACR only, no other tools in AE.
This is Afterglow Shot1 frame000380
Can someone make same or near the same result in Resolve? I try a lot, but can't get close enough. And there is some banding in the shadows near her nose…
Seams like resolve uses 8bit master when convert from raw?

Image

link full frame -
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2727/frame000380n2.jpg
Last edited by Aleksandr_Oleynik on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 5:16 pm

And this example of cooperation - ACR convert from raw + small grade Resolve -

Image

link full frame -
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/8601/frame000380acrdav131.jpg
Last edited by Aleksandr_Oleynik on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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valentine andreyev

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 5:17 pm

Try match this as close as possible.

Here`s result.

davinci.jpg
davinci.jpg (411.61 KiB) Viewed 2035 times


Main trouble is lack of details in Resolve and terrible banding.
Just compare it side by side!

compare.jpg
compare.jpg (364.63 KiB) Viewed 2035 times
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Thank you Valentine! Alas, I see banding on the result of a Resolve :(
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AndreasK

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 5:53 pm

That is a nice match valentine. Do you (both) mind sharing the settings as I'm making my first baby steps in revolve and having the matching values would greatly help.

The missing detail is imho Adobe's mighty clarity that greatly enhances the microcontrast.
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 7:52 pm

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John Brawley

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Aleksandr_Oleynik wrote:Ok!
I take correctly exposed material to test what result i will have with ACR. I use ACR only, no other tools in AE.
This is Afterglow Shot1 frame000380
Can someone make same or near the same result in Resolve? I try a lot, but can't get close enough. And there is some banding in the shadows near her nose…
Seams like resolve uses 8bit master when convert from raw?

Image

link full frame -
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2727/frame000380n2.jpg


Resolve is 16 BIT when working with DNG files from the BMCC.

You need to get to know the camera tab on the bottom left of the Colour grading panel.

In there you can override the camera's exposure to make it around -2.0. You should find you have all your DR.

You can also try to use the brand new BMD FILM preset in the picker list on the left hand side.

jb
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Sydney Australia
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CaptainHook

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostSun Sep 09, 2012 11:21 pm

Okay, i had a go matching. I didn't get an exact match but i didn't expect to. It's close enough for me though and i will preface it by saying the choices made here or not to my taste but that doesn't matter (i personally am not a big fan of how flat and how lifted the low mid tones in the ACR version are, and i'm not big on the skin tone/colour but that's merely preference).

I don't see the lack of detail or banding mentioned above, but maybe i'm turning a blind eye to it.

Here's my version of matching Aleksandr's image above in resolve:

Image

Large version here:
http://f.cl.ly/items/3w241y3z1p0T0h2J2t ... _1.1.1.jpg

Here's a split screen with my version on the right and Aleksandr's ACR on the left, i made the split down her nose, check the large version if you're having trouble seeing the split (i should have labelled the ACR side to make it clear):

Image

Large version of split:
http://f.cl.ly/items/3L1M3n223H0n472A1O ... eRight.jpg

And here's the split with the images reversed for comparison:
Image

And large of that:
http://f.cl.ly/items/0K3T0w0T282D0s3M0w ... veLeft.jpg

Dont get me wrong guys, i've complained about how Resolve is dealing with these raws as well and it's obvious ACR can recover more detail in extreme cases. I'm all for improvement though where needed and i think something that will really help a lot of people is the initial default display of the raws. I keep going on about the Capture One default display but it really makes a difference on your first impression of the image and where you then take it. It really does affect your decisions as you manipulate colour. I just want to repeat as well, that i REALLY appreciate Blackmagic's communication right now and the efforts put in by their team and John.
https://vimeo.com/acoupleofnightowls/
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 5:08 am

Captain,
Can I get the project file to Resolve?
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CaptainHook

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 5:34 am

Sure,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ay20u6uk2cbca ... 20Test.drp

If you have any issues with the project please let me know. This was exported with 9b3 as i have keyboard shortcut issues with the 9 GM release (that i have reported).

This isn't how i would approach a grade, but it is how i approached trying to match your frame. Something i found interesting is that the resolve version had more colour variation in the skin/hair so i made a node to desaturate and then re-colour with the colour wheels. This got me much closer. I may download your ACR settings to see what you did, but this is interesting if you didn't try unify colours yourself and it's just something ACR is doing. There's also more noise in the shadows of resolve but i use Resolve light with no NR (i own/use Neat Video if i want to do that kind of thing anyway). But the noise doesn't bother me here and feels more like 'grain' which i often add to digital footage anyway.
https://vimeo.com/acoupleofnightowls/
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 5:38 am

Thank you very much Captain!
Now we analyze the bones. ;)
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CaptainHook

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 5:39 am

Haha, no problem. I hope we all learn something from this and get a better Resolve from it. :)
https://vimeo.com/acoupleofnightowls/
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/
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AndreasK

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 6:05 am

Thank you Caption, will download and learn from your project too
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CaptainHook

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 6:30 am

Sure, but i just have to re-iterate that this project is not how i would generally do (or setup) a grade. Thanks.
https://vimeo.com/acoupleofnightowls/
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/
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AndreasK

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 6:31 am

Maybe (if you've got the time) you could start fresh with this frame and grade it like you would do ?
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 6:47 am

CaptainHook wrote:Haha, no problem. I hope we all learn something from this and get a better Resolve from it. :)

Captain, any communication - learning! I hope you also learn something new. ;)
Thanks.
Last edited by Aleksandr_Oleynik on Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 6:52 am

I do not mind the noise. I'm worried about banding and cadaveric yellow spots -

Image

It is better to look at the full frame -

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2311/posterisation001.jpg
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Sergey Goncharov

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 8:48 am

Guys, I think you do not use a key option that appears in Resolve. Turn in Color Space - BMD Film and everything will be fine.
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Aleksandr_Oleynik

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 9:19 am

Yes Sergey! A lot better with banding. But with saturation tight.
In general, this strange BMDFilm works. Compresses the range, and it is then necessary to expand.
John Brawley wrote BMCFilm - an interesting option!
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CaptainHook

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 11:18 am

AndreasK wrote:Maybe (if you've got the time) you could start fresh with this frame and grade it like you would do ?

Hey, i've posted my first grade earlier here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22&start=60#p547

I went for a much darkier 'moodier' look overall since i like that, and i didn't make the skin as green/yellow as the ACR file we've been looking at here is. If i were going for a 'beauty' look i would approach it much differently yet again.

Aleksandr_Oleynik wrote:Captain, any communication - learning! I hope you also learn something new. ;)

Learning everyday! It's my favourite thing to do. :)

Aleksandr_Oleynik wrote:I do not mind the noise. I'm worried about banding and cadaveric yellow spots -

I personally don't see the parts you've highlighted as banding. In motion at 1080p on my 27" display it looks fine. Yes there are some yellow spots, but as i first mentioned in order to match the ACR file i noticed that resolve displays a much larger range of colours. The yellow parts in the shadow/low-mid tones are a result of my failure to fully 'unify' all colour in her skin like ACR. I actually see this as a 'flaw' to ACR since you have no option but to live with the lack of colour range. Most noticeable in the hair in which according to ACR is basically the same colour as her skin, where as Resolve shows clearly this is not so. The prores log files from the BMC are similar which i posted about and this can either be a negative or positive depending on what you're trying to achieve. I like that with raw in resolve you can choose.

The BMCFilm colour space indeed behaves like the Prores film files. It seems you prefer the more constrained and uniform colours. Great to have the option now in Resolve! I had a quick play with that option but i have to say the keyboard shortcut problems in 9GM (and scroll wheel now tilting instead of zooming - you have to hold alt+scroll now? arrggghhh) still annoy me and i will revert back to 9b3 after these tests.

So here are the comparisons with BMCFilm this time, not as closely matched now but still...

Image

Larger:

http://f.cl.ly/items/0c0x0I412i2m0X2C2T ... ight_2.jpg

And a pixel peeping 200% :D

Image

So yes, BMCFIlm (i'm guessing it's the prores log straight from the BMC) seems to get closer to ACR much quicker and easier. But IMHO this isn't a good thing unless you're always going for that look. For me, i've never been a big fan of ACR conversions. Not compared to Capture One. But i think the BMCFilm can go other places too and it's great we have the choice now if we need/want it or not. Progress. :)
https://vimeo.com/acoupleofnightowls/
http://www.captainhook.co.nz/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lut/
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Sergey Goncharov

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Re: Adobe vs DaVinci RAW Converter

PostMon Sep 10, 2012 12:01 pm

Alexander, saturation there all right. All solved by increasing the contrast in the right areas.
Attachments
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In my opinion a lot, but reserve visible color.
000001.jpg (138.83 KiB) Viewed 1752 times
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