4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

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Ryan Earl

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 9:15 pm

Blackmagic didn't run a kickstarter campaign for the turret upgrade. It was billed as a product that was presumably already developed and tested, with the detailed specs as stated already working. The recent video coverage at NAB is suggesting that it was never actually working in the URSA to begin with.

I would think the preorder process would be to estimate how many of the turrets to manufacture to try to deliver the upgrade to customers within a reasonable period of time, not whether or not the company should decide to manufacture it at all.

Again, the sensor was and still is advertised on retail sites as a product that could be purchased as an upgrade to the URSA while people are making the decision to continue using or buy the V1 & V2 sensor.

It's misleading even if they haven't cancelled the preorders. I don't think there should be a question as to whether or not they should follow through with the upgrade.

As an owner of the URSA, MINI 4K and MINI Pro it's hard to watch Dan May talk about the sensor upgrade in the most recent interview. I would rather watch an enthusiastic announcement that the turret upgrade is coming this summer from Grant Petty!
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Brian Gulliver

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 11:11 pm

We have not seen any evidence that they are having unacceptable results with the turret. Why don't they post images and footage downloads that we can grade in Resolve so we know exactly what they mean by unacceptable results? Is there a reason they can't do that like possibly what they are saying is not true?
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robertmanningjr

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 4:08 am

Joshua Dredge wrote:
robertmanningjr wrote:The "upgrade" is not an upgrade. It's a settlement."


That is not true. It can be construed as an act of good faith while waiting for the turret. If the turret does not ship, then it is NOT settlement nor compensation. Unless they provide the camera for free/in exchange for your URSA, then it's not compensation - its an extra purchase.

If I purchased an URSA Mini Pro using the upgrade option, it still doesn't fix the problems with the URSA major and I'd still exercise my right to return the URSA for a refund under Australian law.


I agree, Joshua.
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robertmanningjr

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 4:35 am

Denny Smith wrote:Complaining about what is not happening with the Ursa Turret upgrade is not going to get it fixed. You bought a great camera with a nice 4K Glibal Shutter camera, with high speed frame rates, not rolling shutter issues. End of story!

BM was a little amiss trying to offer it as a possible upgradeable camera with its "interchangeable" Turret, which is not interchangeable in the same sense as an interchangeable lens mount, you just unscrew and rescues in a new mount. The upgrade Turret is Not and p,if and play, change whenever you want option.
It was/is a one time change to "upgrade your sensor (which allowed a one time lens mount change too).

BM's mistake was offering something they had yet to produce, it was all just engineering specifications. They did, if I rmember, offer a 4K V2 upgrade after the original V1 Ursa came out, and this worked, they had it on the V2 cameras and offered it to the Ver1 buyers. That was your "promised upgrade for the first released Ursa cameras, the other proposed Turret ideas, like a video output connection instead of a lens, B4 mint Turret never got off the ground, and were dropped.

When the 4.6 sensor was in development and the Ursa Mini designed for it, BM again jumped the gun by releasing the sensor would be a GS/RS dual shutter camera, along with the Micro Cinema camera having both shutters. Again, the BM cart was before the horse, and technical issues trying to implement this whi,e keeping the unique sensor' high IQ intact task not possible, the GS was dropped on All cameras both the 4.6 sensor and the Micro camera. GS is going to be a new camera down the line. End of this story.

Also, BM bit off more than they could chew by trying to make the Ursa upgradeable to a sensor technology yet to be developed. This means the new sensor is going to have to work with the existing power, video processor and cooling systems, which further ties an engineer's hands in developing a product that will fit in this restraint, increasing development costs, etc. In the end, at least with this version of the 4.6K sensor, the Ursa is not working satisfactorily with the attempts BM has made trying to fit it in the existing Turret setup and work with the Ursa's processing system.

Also the Ursa processor can not run the FW 4.x from the Ursa Mini, and needs a new OS just for it to run a new processor. So in addition to changing the Sensor/Turret (not an easy or quick task), you will need to upgrade the camera OS to work with the new sensor. The issues in an upgradeable camera keep adding up. At one point, designing a new camera becomes the better route to take.

The lessons is this is BM learned (hopefully) not to promise a camera feature they have not already developed and tested. This is made evident with the out of the blue release of the Ursa Mini Pro, and subsequent announcement of it having Bluetooth support. The lesson for us, not to expect something that has not been made or even developed yet. Every attempt I have seen over the years to make a camera "upgradeable" even in film cameras, has failed. Sony, Rollei, and Kodak have all tried, it just does not work, you can not build something today that will accept a new part that has yet to be designed or made, unless that part can be made specifically designed for that piece of equipment, to add a new feature.

BM made a generous offer to original Ursa buyers (not used camera purchases) to get a discount in the Ursa Mini Pro, at a value greater than the original estimated Ursa Turret upgrade, and you get to keep the Ursa also. Expecting that BM owes any camera buyer, including the Ursa, anything more is just not realistic. BM does not owe anyone anything, promoting yet to be made accessories or parts for a camera is not a promise of delivery, nor is it a contract to provide the those parts, it is an intent to try, but not a promise to deliver, so no court cases here either I believe.

Embrace change, quit clinging onto the past. The Ursa just as it is, is a great camera, and makes great images. It still is a 4K camera with lots of features that can produce an excellent Cinema 2K release feature film, if you wanted to. The camera is capable as it stands, are you? Take you Ursa, and go out and used it, make a feature film, or a great little commercial. Go inverview someone with a story to tell, and tell their story. Let the past go! :roll:
Cheers



Respectfully, Denny, you are flat out wrong. Everything you said that Blackmagic didn't promise, they did. And those promises came directly from the CEO and ALL of their advertised material, which I have on my hard drive. They said the turret was not only finished, but they published a sample video on the site, which they recently removed, of URSA 4.6k footage. They also gave a shipping time. They also promised original URSA owners would get the 4.6k turret before anything else shipped. All of this directly from the CEO. All of that makes Blackmagic directly liable for OWING ALL URSA OWNERS! Even those who bought their URSAs used! Again, I cannot mention what company had to buy back all my equipment, but they even had to buy back my used branded lenses I bought for that camera because I bought them for that specific camera. They are liable and they are well aware of that.

They know once they say the turret is not possible, they have to refund owners IF they want to send their equipment in for a refund. They published documentation saying the URSA 4.6k turret and camera had a global shutter. They published frame rates and specs and photos of the camera. They published sample video from the company and from a beta tester.

They have to deliver or they have to refund all owners. There is no other way around it. I have not gotten a response from my email. My certified letter went out today. I will give them 'appropriate' time to respond and then I'm contacting the Federal Trade Commission here in the U.S.

All I want is the advertised and promised turret OR my money back for my equipment. I would rather the turret. Not unreasonable on my part. And I'm not signing a non-disclosure this time around.

And Denny, I sincerely do not mean to be disrespectful. We all, including you, have seen the 2015 NAB turret announcement and we have seen the 'previous' website and we all have seen the previous documentation with the 4.6k turret specs.

And I agree with everyone else. Giving us an URSA mini pro would be a gesture of good faith, but it is not an equal exchange even with the new tech in the mini. Blackmagic should 'loan' every URSA owner a mini pro until the turret is done (and I agree that is not going to probably happen) or they decide to refund owners for the purchase price OR they give owners a mini pro, a monitor and accessories (if the owner agrees to that trade) OR they promise (and I'm not keen on Blackmagic promises) to give current URSA owners their next "flagship" URSA camera at an even exchange, as long as their is a hard ship date. And when that ship date is not met, the URSA owner gets a refund. All these are viable options in my opinion, but again, I will settle for my money back.
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Aaron Swann

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 5:48 am

Robert,

When did they announce the turret was finished, can you please send me the link? Prettt sure the video was shot on the URSA Mini and it was demonstrating the dynamic range of the new 4.6K sensor and not the new Turret...

I find it hard to believe a second hand buyer would have the same legal rights, particularly in this scenario as the original URSA purchaser. Couldn't the seller actually be liable for telling the potential second hand buyer that the URSA is upgradeable. Because that's about how ridiculous your argument is getting.

Blackmagic published specs for an unreleased concept, it was their intention to release it as a product and they still could. What if Blackmagic continue to work on the sensor for the next 5 years? Did Blackmagic release the camera with a document stating the camera would be upgraded by 2017? Is Blackmagic the only company that could release an upgraded turrent for the URSA? I think there's too many loose ends in this instance, I mean yes the camera is sold as upgradeable but does that mean Blackmagic is soley responsible for upgrading the URSA?
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Ryan Earl

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 1:12 pm

Aaron Swann wrote:Blackmagic published specs for an unreleased concept


I don't think that's true with the 4.6K turret. I would agree with you if there had been a 4.6K or 5K sensor turret on display at a trade show with no advertising material or preorders. Their intent to produce the upgrade was evident in the advertising and preorder process. Something seems to have gone wrong along the way.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 1:53 pm

According to the ursa's web page the test footage was shot with the new blackmagic ursa 4.6k
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 1:56 pm

Well. The DID steal the show at nab because of the 4.6K turret and the mini. They took all the attention away from all the other companies. And everybody ran to the BMD stand because of these 2 new products.

AJA had a similar product (the CION) and black magic basically defeated them at NAB? I think AJA didn't sell as many CIONs because of BMDs announcement. I mean WHO would buy a coin if BMD has the same camera upgradable. Even RED got beaten at NAB... I had the budget to buy a RED, it would have been tight, but i decided that BMD was the better choic, financially AND the 4.6K with 3 screens and 120fps - was perfect. The whole presentation was made to persuade me. And for me it was a back and forth between 4 cameras for half a year. I didn't make the decision over night. And the URSA v1 with 80 fps WAS NOT EVEN one of my 4 main choices. BMD only came back into the game after 4.6k announcement.

They did have a 4.6K ursa there and showed it as a working camera. they DIDNT say this is a fake but we MIGHT have one one day, why don't you look at our kickstarter campaign. People thought they just have to PRODUCE enough turrets so they don't have to ship them one by one.

They DID say the turret will be released first, they actually made it sound like the turret just needs assembly. (by showing a full working ursa and publishing release dates) They said the turret would come first. Its in one of the interview i attached. Also the release dates have changed on their website from first: JULY 2015
http://web.archive.org/web/201506271131 ... ckmagicurs


In the 3rd 3rd she says the turret will be first.

There are a few more videos for example ONE where they say: THAT THE URSA WILL NOW BE 4990 SO IF YOU ARE ARE INTERESTED IN THE 4.6K VERSION, YOU GO AHEAD, BUY IT NOW AND UPGRADE LATER. SO THEY EVEN ADJUSTED PRICES TO MAKE THE OFFER PERFECT.


Attention: They all say. it DOES and it HAS... not that it might have etc. they are VERY specific.

Im not sure if everybody here has followed the whole thing from the beginning, maybe some don't even have an URSA or you had it already and didn't care about NAB 2015 / 16. but the whole campaign was DESIGNED to sell more URSAs immediately and because of the sensor.

One more thing. They said its a chinese company producing the sensor, but its their OWN technology. What happens ofter in China is that they steal you technology and sell it to somebody else. Kinefinity TERRA is basically the same product. So who knows whats going on there. And BHPHoto doesn't sell their camera for whatever reason ?!?!!? Maybe BMD got screwed over too.

Now as for BMD; I don't want the company to bankrupt. But by buying their product i have jumped on their boat invested in them. But i do have a minimum requirement for whats acceptable for me. Im already compromising. Mini users already compromised, because there is no global shutter. They have destroyed their competition at NAB. Their marketing was perfect.

So whats going to happen if:
They announce the NEXT big product next time: Other companies will just laugh and say: Its BMD again? They are just announcing random stuff and don't even know if they can pull it off? They just want the attention at NAB? Its all just sales tricks? Is that what they want people to think about them? Or "it will take them 5 years and the technology is not relevant anymore when it comes to the stores?" Maybe that's why it was so quiet at NAB this year?

This is the EXACT video that made me BUY the ursa. THIS was the decision maker for me.

And you don't need a written document for legal action: People get sued because they lie in youtube videos or somebody gets injured doing an abdominal exercise off YOUTUBE wrong :)

I don't know. But this needs to be handled differently.
Releasing the sensor when 4-5 years later won't help either. By then, every 1000$ camera will be able to do what they promised.
Last edited by MartinVidic on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 2:02 pm

NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW CHECK THIS OUT



We have worked on it a couple of years? We are SO happy with the resuts? IT WAS READY?????

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Brian Gulliver

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 4:07 pm

Now they are saying it is like running Android OS on an Apple IOS device. Ok well then we need to write the firmware for the URSA there are no shortcuts.

Right on MartinVidic in 2015 those NAB videos were misleading. I had watched everyone of them and could recite them verbatim in my sleep the argument that they were not promised features is dead.

https://goo.gl/photos/bH8hfffzVmHvmSR77
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rick.lang

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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 5:14 pm

By comparison, the URSA Mini 4.6K cameras were promoted to have a user selectable global and rolling shutter. When BMD admitted that wasn't going to happen with the production shipping camera, Grant Petty sent an email pulling that feature but adding the optional B4 mount and the 12pin hirose lens control connector to the URSA Mini 4.6. PL mount camera. The lens control was included as part of the base price, but the B4 optical mount was an additional cost. I really wanted the original camera as specified, but went with the PL/B4 mounts and have really enjoyed shooting 2K on an affordable used Fujinon Cine Zoom. It was clearly a compromise from my original goals, but the results have been very good for how I need to use the camera.

The turret issue is far more complicated than the Mini 4.6 K global shutter issue. The final verdict has not been given and when Grant does make it final, URSA owners may well largely be satisfied. Until its final that the turret upgrade will not happen, there is no legal case. When it's final, you'll no doubt have an offer of an alternative that you may accept or not. The delay from the original proposed URSA turret upgrade and this final decision may attest to the degree to which BMD has been trying to make good on the original promise and allowing BMD time to develop their compensating offer. The BMD URSA Mini Pro with several interchangeable mounts is not that compensating offer. It's just a generous alternative for those who wish to take advantage of it.

Understand the frustration and it will cost BMD the loyalty of some ardently supportive customers. I doubt everyone will be satisfied with any alternative to what was promised. But the reality is that it is premature to come to conclusions now and premature to be seeking legal redress while the item is still open. Please be patient for those who can and carry on creating great video with whichever tools you choose.


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Donnell Henry

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 5:36 pm

rick.lang wrote:By comparison, the URSA Mini 4.6K cameras were promoted to have a user selectable global and rolling shutter. When BMD admitted that wasn't going to happen with the production shipping camera, Grant Petty sent an email pulling that feature but adding the optional B4 mount and the 12pin hirose lens control connector to the URSA Mini 4.6. PL mount camera. The lens control was included as part of the base price, but the B4 optical mount was an additional cost. I really wanted the original camera as specified, but went with the PL/B4 mounts and have really enjoyed shooting 2K on an affordable used Fujinon Cine Zoom. It was clearly a compromise from my original goals, but the results have been very good for how I need to use the camera.

The turret issue is far more complicated than the Mini 4.6 K global shutter issue. The final verdict has not been given and when Grant does make it final, URSA owners may well largely be satisfied. Until its final that the turret upgrade will not happen, there is no legal case. When it's final, you'll no doubt have an offer of an alternative that you may accept or not. The delay from the original proposed URSA turret upgrade and this final decision may attest to the degree to which BMD has been trying to make good on the original promise and allowing BMD time to develop their compensating offer. The BMD URSA Mini Pro with several interchangeable mounts is not that compensating offer. It's just a generous alternative for those who wish to take advantage of it.

Understand the frustration and it will cost BMD the loyalty of some ardently supportive customers. I doubt everyone will be satisfied with any alternative to what was promised. But the reality is that it is premature to come to conclusions now and premature to be seeking legal redress while the item is still open. Please be patient for those who can and carry on creating great video with whichever tools you choose.


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Once again the voice of reason rick. And that's coming from a Ursa v1 owner
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 7:15 pm

I also asked them about the 4.6K sensor via email a few times when i had to email then in other occasions. And I "DO FIND" their customer support amazing!!!!! Best I've come across ever. Its just that I'm a first time BMD customer I'm very worried about what I've bought myself in to. If the final solution is only half as good as their customer support has been with "me" so far, I'm sure whatever they offer will be acceptable for me. PLEASEEEEE! Just don't let the UMPro upgrade path be the final option :cry:
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 10:32 pm

I understand BMD's intention by displaying URSA cameras with non switchable regular 4.6K sensor turrets to boost sales numbers. The camera was never actually operated in dual shutter mode, whilst on that topic did anybody ever operate this 4.6K URSA at a trade show and then analyze the footage in Resolve. There is no way BMD could have been that close to a working model and then suddenly nothing!
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 11:38 pm

rick.lang wrote:By comparison, the URSA Mini 4.6K cameras were promoted to have a user selectable global and rolling shutter. When BMD admitted that wasn't going to happen with the production shipping camera, Grant Petty sent an email pulling that feature but adding the optional B4 mount and the 12pin hirose lens control connector to the URSA Mini 4.6. PL mount camera. The lens control was included as part of the base price, but the B4 optical mount was an additional cost. I really wanted the original camera as specified, but went with the PL/B4 mounts and have really enjoyed shooting 2K on an affordable used Fujinon Cine Zoom. It was clearly a compromise from my original goals, but the results have been very good for how I need to use the camera.

The turret issue is far more complicated than the Mini 4.6 K global shutter issue. The final verdict has not been given and when Grant does make it final, URSA owners may well largely be satisfied. Until its final that the turret upgrade will not happen, there is no legal case. When it's final, you'll no doubt have an offer of an alternative that you may accept or not. The delay from the original proposed URSA turret upgrade and this final decision may attest to the degree to which BMD has been trying to make good on the original promise and allowing BMD time to develop their compensating offer. The BMD URSA Mini Pro with several interchangeable mounts is not that compensating offer. It's just a generous alternative for those who wish to take advantage of it.

Understand the frustration and it will cost BMD the loyalty of some ardently supportive customers. I doubt everyone will be satisfied with any alternative to what was promised. But the reality is that it is premature to come to conclusions now and premature to be seeking legal redress while the item is still open. Please be patient for those who can and carry on creating great video with whichever tools you choose.


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Rick, I agree with you and when I mention legality, I am only mentioning it as a matter of rights and not what we can do right now. I know they haven't come out and said, they don't have a turret option anymore because they are aware that announcement would immediately hold them liable. I use my URSA every week. I have only asked for a refund IF the turret is no longer an option.

And remember with regard to the mini and the switchable global/rolling shutter, they hadn't sold any of those cameras when they made the announcement. Therefore, we, the consumer had a choice whether or not to purchase and accept the changes. URSA buyers did not have that choice.

I also agree that Blackmagic could continue to say "we are working on it". At what point do we, the consumer, say that three or four years is long enough.
Last edited by robertmanningjr on Mon May 08, 2017 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 11:43 pm

Aaron Swann wrote:Robert,

When did they announce the turret was finished, can you please send me the link? Prettt sure the video was shot on the URSA Mini and it was demonstrating the dynamic range of the new 4.6K sensor and not the new Turret...

I find it hard to believe a second hand buyer would have the same legal rights, particularly in this scenario as the original URSA purchaser. Couldn't the seller actually be liable for telling the potential second hand buyer that the URSA is upgradeable. Because that's about how ridiculous your argument is getting.

Blackmagic published specs for an unreleased concept, it was their intention to release it as a product and they still could. What if Blackmagic continue to work on the sensor for the next 5 years? Did Blackmagic release the camera with a document stating the camera would be upgraded by 2017? Is Blackmagic the only company that could release an upgraded turrent for the URSA? I think there's too many loose ends in this instance, I mean yes the camera is sold as upgradeable but does that mean Blackmagic is soley responsible for upgrading the URSA?


I hope you read the posts with video attached and got your information. A YouTube search will get you the same information.

And the sample video on their site specifically said that it was shot on a 4.6k URSA. Not an Ursa mini. These are facts, not my opinion.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 30, 2017 1:47 am

+1

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 30, 2017 4:51 am

Interestingly, the latest ursa manual in March has removed all instructions on how to upgrade the turret- the previous manuals all had a step by step photo guide.

As a side note Captain Hook confirmed on another blackmagic forum that the video onthe product page was shot onthe ursa.

Given that they had working prototypes in 2015, and then Grant completely failed to mention it during his pre nab speech last year, and now another senior member of blackmagic a leadership team has said it's future is hazy it's in my opinion fair to say it's not happening, and now is the time for blackmagic to start contacting their customers to address the situation.

It feels so wrong that I bought a mini 4.6k to match my ursa (with the hoped for turret) and now I use the mini and the big boy sits in the very large and heavy peli case in the corner of the room! And my only hope of being able to do an easy two camera job is to buy yet another camera!
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 30, 2017 11:47 am

To the BMD boffins...

Which are you?

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 02, 2017 1:16 pm

I would like to see black balance adjustments implemented on the URSA sensors.

If it is a software issue possibly it could run emulator software to communicate with the sensor. If not it should not be too hard to replace the brain board I mean what happens when the brain board fails there already should be a procedure to replace brain board at the factory.

I remember hearing something to the effect from Grant Petty "The URSA can do more under the hood than meets the eye or what is officially claimed at its release." I am not sure what he meant by this statement? Does it really have "super powers" that we don't know about or have not seen yet? It is obvious that it has a far superior liquid cooling system with a lot of headroom to grow than any other BM camera. It is actually one of the features that I like on a positive note but I just don't know why it has to develop "dysfunctional family" issues with the rest of the URSA family.

Is there any more information BMD can give us as to how the family is getting along?
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 02, 2017 2:22 pm

I don't understand.

A company makes a product announcement; an upgrade for X that the company says it does A and will be available for the amount of B upon the date of C. At some point this no longer seems like a viable path for the company so they discontinue the upgrade for X.

So, there are people who bought X who really wanted the upgrade for X. Now, they won't be able to have it. So, they want full refunds or a free "upgrade" to a newer product...because the upgrade for X is no longer an option?

That doesn't make sense. The company even offered a reasonable upgrade path to the newer product. I don't understand the self-entitlement.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 02, 2017 3:07 pm

Turret officially dead. Looking to get a Sony FS series instead now.
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Wed May 03, 2017 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 02, 2017 4:15 pm

Here is a theory why there is still no 4.6K turret announcement:

• Let's say a URSA Mini pro costs them 3000$ in production. I don't think its more than 3500 because they will not want to lose money with this product too.
• I think soon the UMPs will sell it for 4990 anyway => 2k profit... After all there are just a few new connections and bluetooth, right. I think the 4inch screen is even cheaper than what they had before.
• The optional upgrade path calmed down a LOT of URSA buyers temporarily. So NAB wen relatively quiet.
• On top of that many will panic and go for the upgrade because it looks like the URSA MAJOR PROJECT is over -> and they are probably still earning 500$ per camera.
• They also remove all other cameras for NAB - More panic - more money - but no announcement.

NO ANNOUNCEMENT... BECAUSE they are still working on it. and after all i don't think the last 2 years were easy for them. And the mini pro is not a bad camera. just NOT AS good as the turret. Just not good enough to keep everybody who bought an URSA as a future customer.

So maybe the turret will still come.
I just HAVE to wait for something official. The mini is not what i needed when I bought the ursa. I could have ordered a mini before if I wanted one. I bought my URSA after nab 2015... so I had the options; URSA with TURRET, mini, or mini4.6. I went for the URSA because thats what i needed. And i don't want to be forced to buy what i didn't need!

Even IF i wanted a mini, i would go for the normal 4.6K because i have no need for bluetooth, internal NDs or that 4 inch screen. give me at least 5inch :)

I hope I'm right, but most likely I'm not. and yes I'm panicing too. If the right opportunity shows up before I get what i wanted from my URSA major, I will leave the BMD ship forever... unfortunately :(
Either way I can't afford to spend another 3.5K on a camera i don't need right now.
ALL I WANT IS THE TURRET! All or nothing.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 02, 2017 5:03 pm

Here's the sum of it all. It is NOT a technical issue. They did not sell enough URSA major to warrant the ROI on the turret. So goodbye turret. Customers suffer. BMD just don't care. It's all about their bottom line guys.
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Patrick Spectra

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 02, 2017 7:30 pm

It's dead folks:

Hello Patrick,

Thank you for contacting us. We are no longer actively promoting them. We think our other cameras are better options. The full sized URSA is still supported but no longer being manufactured.

All the Best,
Eric Pestana
Technical Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.


Ticket Details
Ticket ID: CEU-884-61083
Department: Support
Type: Issue
Status: Closed
Priority: Normal
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 1:56 am

In all fairness to everyone involved. This is the first time that BM has had a camera reach EOL. I'm sure they are learning from this as are we all.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 11:05 am

Jason R. Johnston wrote:I don't understand.

A company makes a product announcement; an upgrade for X that the company says it does A and will be available for the amount of B upon the date of C. At some point this no longer seems like a viable path for the company so they discontinue the upgrade for X.

So, there are people who bought X who really wanted the upgrade for X. Now, they won't be able to have it. So, they want full refunds or a free "upgrade" to a newer product...because the upgrade for X is no longer an option?

That doesn't make sense. The company even offered a reasonable upgrade path to the newer product. I don't understand the self-entitlement.


More like company released a product A. They then discontinued product A without ever releasing its main feature (user upgradeability, for this scenario: Upgrade X).

They then try to sell you product B for twice what they advertised Upgrade X. Product B STILL does not do what Product A was advertised to do (still not user upgradable, plus lacks features)

From a legal standpoint in Australia, it's black and white. The camera is considered as having a "major defect" and a replacement or refund is the only option. Anyone with enough time would also likely be able to get compensation for money they spent on URSA-specific accessories.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 11:23 am

Joshua, I'm sure BM's website is the perfect place to argue what appears to be a legal case against BM. And Cinematographers would be my first goto group. ;)
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 11:41 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Joshua, I'm sure BM's website is the perfect place to argue what appears to be a legal case against BM. And Cinematographers would be my first goto group. ;)


I don't actually think legal case is likely. I'm pretty confident that Blackmagic and my retailer will resolve things to my satisfaction. All of my dealings with them so far certainly point to that. If they do, then I won't hesitate to be a customer again - all of my other Blackmagic Cameras + Products do exactly what I bought them for.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 2:20 pm

Wow. this is too contradicting :( I also emailed them on another issue and my answer wasn't that conclusive. I was basically told... Not yet at this time and it didn't sound like it was really over. But it wasn't precisely about the 4.6K turret but about something else i needed for my ursa. It didn't sound like they stopped production and that was 2 days ago. From what Patrick posted, it really looks like its 100% dead.

Patrick Spectra wrote:It's dead folks:
Thank you for contacting us. We are no longer actively promoting them. We think our other cameras are better options. The full sized URSA is still supported but no longer being manufactured.


And this was 2 weeks ago.

Tony Rivera wrote:There has been no announcement of discontinuing the turrets by us so there is some confusion obviously with this email. I've notified the appropriate people so we can get this cleared up.


So can this actual be cleared up please?

PLEEEEEESE BMD!?!?!?!?! Can you make an official statement. or at least answer here in the forum and give some more details. We have a right to know. We invested a lot of money in you "flag ship" product.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 3:46 pm

I'm sorry Jason R. Johnston but we are not entitled to depend on BMD's promises. A promise is meant to be kept or it becomes a lie. A lie does not have entitlement attached to it whatsoever. Now if BMD said we "think" we can do this or we will "try" to do this it would be different but they actually did say we "Are" or "We will" do this and made a promise that it was coming to increase sales which if it does not come true is an outright lie. Entitlement is no where to be seen. I don't know if you are an URSA owner or not but It would be easier to make that statement if you were not an URSA customer.

It is basically an issue of saying one thing and doing another or saying something you cannot backup or have not tested fully and don't even know if you are able to back up which is bluffing.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 5:56 pm

Brian, in commerce, unless a product is shipping and you can buy it, any other promise is merely a hope. And unless you have a contract from BM with penalties spelled out, it is buyer beware. Buy from resellers with a no questions asked return policy and check the product carefully when you get it. And if you have any doubt that the product is not what you expected, return it.

By now it should be clear that you should not make plans about or pre-purchase products for anything a vendor is not shipping. Buying a product based on other products that have not even been developed should automatically be understood to be risky. If you do that and it falls through, as in the case of Ursa and the purported future sensor replacements, unless BM is shipping it, it doesn't exist and you are buying a hope.

When BM claimed a future proof camera, you should have asked them where they kept the unicorns. There is no such thing as a future proof camera. Never has been.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:31 pm

Stores get sued because somebody slips in the entrance. Companies get sued because of false information in tv commercials. Webmasters get sued because they spread false information on their websites. Youtubers get sued because somebody gets hurt following a fitness instructions...

With the ursa, BMD has done all of the above, I just don't know how many ppl slipped in their entrance :)

The way they promoted and sold the URSA definitely doesn't sound like something you can't go after.

The ursa mini works for some... so less people will end up suing BMD. but this whole 4.6k turret lie REALLY REALLY hurts some people. Avoiding the topic only makes things worse.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 8:55 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Brian, in commerce, unless a product is shipping and you can buy it, any other promise is merely a hope. And unless you have a contract from BM with penalties spelled out, it is buyer beware. Buy from resellers with a no questions asked return policy and check the product carefully when you get it. And if you have any doubt that the product is not what you expected, return it.

By now it should be clear that you should not make plans about or pre-purchase products for anything a vendor is not shipping. Buying a product based on other products that have not even been developed should automatically be understood to be risky. If you do that and it falls through, as in the case of Ursa and the purported future sensor replacements, unless BM is shipping it, it doesn't exist and you are buying a hope.

When BM claimed a future proof camera, you should have asked them where they kept the unicorns. There is no such thing as a future proof camera. Never has been.


You seem to be forgetting one thing. The Ursa was shipping and was available and was sold with the feature that it would be upgradeable, it is not upgradeable if and upgrade is never released. Basically you and many others are saying it is OK for BM to say what ever they want, it is was your fault for believing them.

They also used the 4.6K turret to attract more people to purchase their already existing Ursa, remember this.

What’s exciting is we are also reducing the price of the current shipping 4K models of Blackmagic URSA EF and PL cameras by $1,000. This means if you don’t have an URSA, it’s now more affordable than ever. Plus currently the URSA 4.6K EF is the same price as the URSA 4K EF plus the 4.6K Turret Upgrade so that means you can get started at 4K and then upgrade later if you need the extra dynamic range!


I do not and never have owned the Ursa BTW.
Last edited by David Hessel on Wed May 03, 2017 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 03, 2017 9:04 pm

Exactly!!!!! it seems we are now getting laughed at by everybody who doesn't own an URSA and also by the BMD Team? Is that what we get for our money, trust and loyalty?
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 1:42 am

Gene Kochanowsky they did not advertise a "future proof camera" they advertised an "up-gradable" camera. There have been no upgrades and no I didn't ask BMD where the unicorns are because all I want is an "up-gradable" camera as advertised which is not the same thing as a "future proof camera" which I would agree there never will be a "future proof camera" we are all dying as we speak and cannot escape death. I fully expect "up-gradable" but "future proof" never did I say we should hold BMD accountable for "future proof" only "up-gradable."

You can't have "up-gradable" if you don't have part upgrades. I suppose Gene that if you were buying your head stone for your grave and it was not shipping yet you would understand and have the same sentiment you have now if you did not receive a proper burial.

We know it does exist and we know Beta testers said that it was working. I am pretty sure Ellory Yu was right that it is NOT a technical issue but that it was more an economic decision which they took the low road or the cheep route and broke their promise with customers.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4SI62w5Mb1QOXVnc25XUHhxLUE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4SI62w5Mb1QbE9OUmx2QnhVazQ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4SI62w5Mb1QX0ZvYWpCVEJnQnc/view?usp=sharing

I did purchase my ursa from a reputable dealer by the way but a lot of good it did me Gene when this saga has been going on for so many years.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 2:41 am

I won't argue the semantics of upgradable vs future proof when the upgrades were for sensors yet to be developed in the future. I also did not make myself clear. If you are looking at a camera with an upgrade path were the upgrades are shipping and you purchase the lesser configuration with plans to purchase the upgrade in the future, that is a reasonable and prudent thing to do. But if you purchase a camera with a lesser configuration intending to purchase an upgrade that does not exist at the time of purchase, that is a gamble. It is not prudent unless the vendor has a sterling reputation of doing what they say they are gonna do, which BM most definitely does not and did not have at the time the Ursa was released. Buying the Ursa with the expectation of upgrading it in the future with an upgrade that did not exist at the time the Ursa was purchased was a foolhardy thing to do.

There is no other way to put it.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 3:08 am

Well... Whatever "reputation" they "had" is definitely fading away as the turret is fading away. They were always late, but thats ok, I think they never completely failed to deliver? Am i wrong? And it DID exist... That's what they said, that's what they showed at NAB. They were even taking orders and ppls money. We are not talking about "possible upgradability" in 2014 when the camera was first announced. In 2015 they were very specific and offered ppl a very specific deal. If you go through all their announcements you will see that they were promoting an existing product they said it "took them a few years, it cost them a lot of money and it was SOOO NICE". They just had to manufacture enough. You don't steal the show at NAB with a product you can't show off. THEY showed it off! But apparently at this point the turret they showed was a fake??? and maybe they shot that video with a red? Who knows? Maybe they needed the pre-order money to start developing it? i just don't get it.

U were probably smart or "experienced" enough not to fall for them... I fell for it and it sucks. Whatever lesson they want their URSA customers to learn. its an expensive and nasty one and it will do BMD no good. I'm still in denial and hope its just a dirty MINI PRO marketing trick AND that they will still come out with the turret.

If it's really not happening, (which is 99.99% now) they will never have me as a customer again and Im sure I'm not the only one.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 5:26 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I won't argue the semantics of upgradable vs future proof when the upgrades were for sensors yet to be developed in the future.


When I bought my camera, in July 2015, I was told the sensors were developed and would be shipping in a few weeks. What the salesman says to you is also a form of consumer contract. If the product doesn't do what the salesman says it does, then the same refund or replacement policy applies.

As someone mentioned, and myself, the turrets have not been officially cancelled. I spoke to Blackmagic's Distributor and they said while all URSA stuff has been removed from their pricelists, the turret remains, but that the chances of it being completed is almost zero (and I have that recorded).

I will say though, everyone I've spoken to (retailer and distributor) so far has been great about it, and a resolution should hopefully be reached next week. They've taken note on what outcomes I'd accept, let me know what Blackmagic is likely to offer and taken detailed feedback from me.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 6:34 am

Brian Gulliver wrote:
We know it does exist and we know Beta testers said that it was working.


When did a beta tester ever say this ?

MartinVidic wrote: They were even taking orders and ppls money.
>
>
> Maybe they needed the pre-order money to start developing it? i just don't get it.


It doesn't work that way. Any pre-order you place is with a store, not with Blackmagic. They don't get anything until they ship something.

JB
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 7:25 am

John Brawley wrote:
Brian Gulliver wrote:
We know it does exist and we know Beta testers said that it was working.


When did a beta tester ever say this ?

MartinVidic wrote: They were even taking orders and ppls money.
>
>
> Maybe they needed the pre-order money to start developing it? i just don't get it.


It doesn't work that way. Any pre-order you place is with a store, not with Blackmagic. They don't get anything until they ship something.

JB

JB - apart from the above, would love to know your thoughts on the situation with turret, if possible. Ta.

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Frank Glencairn

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 9:25 am

I was really close to buy a used Ursa, cause I was still looking forward to the new turret.
Am I disappointed? Yes. But probably not as much, as the guys who already bought an Ursa.

With all due respect, but this would have been avoidable.
(Yes, I know I gonna get flak for this - but here it comes)

It's because a lot of folks suffer from preorder hyperactivity disorder.
As soon as a camera is announced, they turn off their brains, and blindly hit that preorder button, instead of waiting, till it hits the shelves.

I might be old school, but even in 2017, I wait till a camera is available (in the config and specs I need it) - than I rent it, test it for a day or two, than I buy it (or not).

Where is the common sense, where is the sanity these days?
Most of us wading anke deep in cameras anyway - do you really need the first unit, that comes out of the factory, to make a living? Are all your other cameras suddenly stop working, after an announcement?

What is it, that makes some folks loosing they sh..t, and hitting that preorder button like a mad man, during every NAB?

Why not wait, till you can walk in a store and buy a mature product?

end of rant
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

Set your zebras to 100%, ETTR and you're golden - and NO, you can't use TB as output for an external monitor, and you can't download the footy via TB ether.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 12:10 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:With all due respect, but this would have been avoidable.
(Yes, I know I gonna get flak for this - but here it comes)

It's because a lot of folks suffer from preorder hyperactivity disorder.
As soon as a camera is announced, they turn off their brains, and blindly hit that preorder button, instead of waiting, till it hits the shelves.

I might be old school, but even in 2017, I wait till a camera is available (in the config and specs I need it) - than I rent it, test it for a day or two, than I buy it (or not).


I will give you some flak since you asked so nicely for it :D Just pointing out I understand why Blackmagic discontinued the camera and am not mad with them, as I've said, I am certain I will get at least my money back for the camera. I just get annoyed that people here are just accepting it and not pushing for their consumer rights.


1. This is exactly what I did. The camera was announced in 2014, I decided I wanted to buy it. I asked some questions, complained a bit about what I thought the camera was doing wrong, and bugged my retailer - and occasionally Blackmagic themselves - with questions nearly every week. As soon as the camera was made available, I rented it. Fell in love with the ergonomics and the image, decided right then I was going to buy it. Still, I waited for news of the sensor upgrade - I was happy with the camera specs as they were, but the user-upgrade-ability was the major feature and I wanted to see which way they were going with it (higher frame rates, resolution, just better image quality, or different sensor sizes or whatever). After the V2 turret was announced with higher image quality and frame rates, I rented that as soon as soon as it was available to (in this case, I borrowed a floor model). Again, still in love with the camera, and its specs now exceeded what I needed at the time. I was ready to buy. Since this was something like Feb 2015, I decided to wait until NAB just in case some new announcement was made. Which of course there was - a new turret, a new viewfinder and new additions to the URSA family!

I was excited about the turret, but didn't need or want it straight away, but I still made enquiries and was assured - in writing - that it was to ship imminently. I bought the camera - over a year after it was announced, and with meticulous research into every feature and having used it multiple times. I was in no rush for the sensor upgrade, the specs were great as is, but the main reason I bought the camera was to be able to upgrade it when those specs weren't enough for me. That was the main feature advertised for this camera.


Now, from a legal standpoint, here at least, the camera is defective because it lacks its main feature. These things DO NOT MATTER:
  • If the purchaser didn't do their research. Doesn't matter, if the camera doesn't do what it says on the box.
  • The track record of the manufacturer. Every promise they make (and the vendor salesman makes), they are accountable to. If they don't want to be refunding/replacing cameras, the camera has to do what it says on the box.
  • Any offers on other products.

The reason I didn't wait another year or two for the turret (besides the obvious, I needed a camera) is that I knew if the turret didn't ship, I have legal protections and rights to a refund, which I have started exercising. It just staggers me that no one else really is, and are just accepting it.

Again, would like to stress, that so far everyone I have dealt with has been great, and I am 100% confident that everything will happen smoothly. I just want everybody else with an URSA to not be complacent if they're not happy with the situation.
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 1:40 pm

Joshua Dredge wrote:I was excited about the turret, but didn't need or want it straight away, but I still made enquiries and was assured - in writing - that it was to ship imminently.


Same here. I was assured (in writing) by BMD support that the turret "WILL HAPPEN" (several times)
In addition to all the obvious announcement. This is my first pro camera. I though "Sure. they say weeks, but its gonna be a year maybe even more." But that was ok because I was a beginner and I'm in a position where i can hold projects where i need slowmo. ONLY making sports and acrobatics related videos, 120fps is very important. And what make things worse. When I ordered my URSA when the V2 sensor with 120fps was already out. I didn't care about the mistake because there were OTHER issues with the camera right out of the box and i was going to get the new sensor anyway.

Before NAB 2015 I knew about the URSA but didn't even consider it because it lacked slowmo and i heard lowlight was an issue too.

Frank Glencairn wrote:preorder hyperactivity


I didn't pre-order because the only track record I have heard of was of blackmagicdesign always taking a bit longer. But who doesn't? I never pre-order anything. Also don't just have the money lying around.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 2:03 pm

I didn't hit the pre-order button on the URSA either I waited until they had the $1000 discount at which point they actually made a second promise that it was safe to buy the URSA and then upgrade to the 4.6K for more dynamic range when needed.

What’s exciting is we are also reducing the price of the current shipping 4K models of Blackmagic URSA EF and PL cameras by $1,000. This means if you don’t have an URSA, it’s now more affordable than ever. Plus currently the URSA 4.6K EF is the same price as the URSA 4K EF plus the 4.6K Turret Upgrade so that means you can get started at 4K and then upgrade later if you need the extra dynamic range!


I am not hyperactive on the pre-order button. The new lower price is what made me pull the trigger combined with the promise by Mr. Petty himself that the 4.6k would be available. I did not pre-order the camera was already shipping. But to defend others who did pre-order it is not their fault either. I think we have all come to accept that BM will never be on time shipping their products but eventually after a lot of pain and struggle they have always shipped their products as advertised but just a few years late. :D I am also fine with late but incomplete or a no show is what I have a problem with.

John Brawley I think we all would love to hear your take on what exactly is wrong with turret if you have not signed a confidentiality agreement with BM.

Joshua Dredge great post I couldn't have said it better myself!
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John Brawley

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 3:34 pm

MartinVidic wrote:
Frank Glencairn wrote:preorder hyperactivity


I didn't pre-order because the only track record I have heard of was of blackmagicdesign always taking a bit longer.


I think Frank's point is more about ordering something that's tangible, shipping and delivered. Any future feature isn't real until it ships.




Brian Gulliver wrote:
I am also fine with late but incomplete or a no show is what I have a problem with.

John Brawley I think we all would love to hear your take on what exactly is wrong with turret if you have not signed a confidentiality agreement with BM.



I can't talk about that as, yes, I'm under NDA.

It's a bitter pill, I am a fan of Ursa, but not the 4K. No one wants a 4.6K Ursa more than me.

But Blackmagic are a small company. I'm not sure Ursa sold all that well. It seems the R&D on the 4.6K variant is a massive undertaking on what would be few sales. I would guess there are less than 5000 cameras out there. If it takes your development team 6-12 months to do a turret well and then another 6 to port the new OS over, all the while preventing new products being developed while you support a small number of Ursa users...

If every single Ursa owner jumped up and down and asked for 4.6K turrets, then I'm sure they'd look at it, but I think they've taken the tempreture and found that isn't the case. There are 5 or 6 posting in this thread a lot. How many Ursa users are there that took the UMP offer I wonder ?

Also, it's funny seeing comments about saving marketing literature and posts before BMD delete accounts. Has that happened ? No. Are we really having a thread discussing legal options on BMD's own forum ? Yes. Are they censoring it in any way ? No. Have they deleted threads and users ? No. Only when you violate their very specific T&C.

There's another company that bans users and deletes threads when customers aren't happy though. That same company has announced many (more) products that never shipped or were years late.

These companies are businesses. You asked my opinion ?

I would love to see a magnesium body version of the Ursa, it would be about half the weight, with a 4.6K sensor in it and the option to put in a non-bayer B&W version of that sensor with a better version of the EVF that has more options to fit and rotate it.

I don't think it will happen because the market is too small to sustain the R&D on what that would take when they sell the cameras this cheaply.

They're in business. The numbers have to add up. Many many many companies announce products and features that never ship for this reason.

If the camera didn't sell well, and it's too expensive for the return to make good on what they hoped would happen, then the Ursa Mini Pro is a pretty good nod to those that feel like they didn't get all they hoped for. It does many of the same things better and better where it counts most, image fidelity.

Ursa is still upgradeable and will be until BMD actually say it isn't.

JB
John Brawley
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MartinVidic

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 4:08 pm

I believe It's not that difficult.
Lets say there are 5000 working URSAS out here. then they will sell 5000 turrets... SOONER OR LATER
If you bought an ursa and didn't buy it for the upgradability, or you changed to ursa mini pro... then you will probably sell it at some point.

Most people who take the loyalty upgrade path will sell their ursa to somebody who is also interested in the upgradability. Once they come out with an official announcement, you won't even get 500$ for your original ursa.

Most people don't have the time to jump up and down to let BMD know. I actually don't have the time either, but this is important for me. People don't look at the BMD site every day but here and there you will notice somebody showing up asking in a new thread... "HEY, there did all the cameras go" And then you have to get back to work, because we want to create videos FIRST... AND these cameras aint cheap.
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 4:36 pm

From a personal standpoint, it would be great to know how long the mini pro offer will go on for.

I unfortunately couldn't just magic £3200 out of the air in the 28 day promo period and would need to budget for such a thing and think things over whilst I see how these nd filter fixes play out
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Donnell Henry

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 5:32 pm

I'm an ursa owner that took the upgrade path. And I am still waiting to upgrade the sensor on this ursa. I do believe if BM Upgrades the sensor on the ursa they'll get more sales in both the short and long term. You'll also see the re-sale/used ursa prices go back up as you will now have an upgrade path. Current owners would upgrade and people on the sidelines waiting to see how this play out would buy into the ursa because they'll see that BM is serious about the selling point of upgrading this Cam. So yes I do want a turret. I'm still using the big ursa on shoots now as a C cam for wide angle shots and the ursa mini pro as well as the ursa mini 4.6k as A and B cams. I won't cry over whatever happens with the turret in a worst case scenario, as I will be squeezing the living daylights out of this cam until it's "End of life". But I do want that turret!!! I would just call up blackmagic and say you're still interested in the turret. That's what I did
Last edited by Donnell Henry on Thu May 04, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 04, 2017 5:34 pm

Thanks for your input, John.

I do expect to see a larger camera, call it URSA Pro, that addresses many of the items you would like to see. There has to be a good market for a camera that more easily supports a crew than the URSA Mini Pro.

What I think will drive its release are the decisions about the sensor that is offered with the URSA Pro. It may be that BMD still wants to do what they had intended to do with the URSA in terms of turret updates or they may give up on that.

I think more important to BMD may be to bring that user selectable global and rolling shutter to fruition. But I believe that requires a new sensor design and we may not see the URSA Pro for a couple of years especially if they want to the maintain 15 stops of dynamic range and 120-240 fps HFR. And what would the sensor resolution be to get the flagship camera adopted on feature film sets? Perhaps 4.6K is sufficient for most purposes, but in a couple of years, more producers may be looking for higher resolution whether or not it makes sense for what is shown in cinemas.

These are tough multi-million dollar design decisions. Personally it wouldn't bother me to stay with a 4.6K resolution and target indie productions that are often using more expensive cameras today, but I don't know what aspirations BMD has for their future target market.


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