4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 13, 2017 9:28 pm

Matthew, I don't think people are any different now than they were prior to the internet. I think everybody still wants reliable information. And unless a company has reliable information, it is better for the company to not say anything at all than spread rumors. The dictum of not writing checks your ass can't cash will always hold. I don't think the rules for transparency have changed either. Pre-announcing a product before it's ready to ship is just as much a double edged sword today as it was prior to the internet. Sometimes it works, but most of the time it just gives your competition a heads up and often they beat you to the finish line.

I am all for customer bonding, but spreading iffy information is not how you do it. Just like in the old days, I bond to companies that do what they say they are gonna do. Which means that unless the company knows for a fact that they can do it, it's best they say nothing. And the best way a company can know for a fact that they can do it is if they are actually shipping. It's just that simple.
Offline

Tim Schumann

Blackmagic Design

  • Posts: 193
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:21 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 13, 2017 10:36 pm

Gene this is not iffy information this is information direct from the camera development team.

You may have noticed then that URSA Mini Pro, and the major products we have released recently have been announced and shipping immediately.

Things have changed in the way we announce products but the 4.6K turret has already been announced and people are waiting so we are giving an update on it for our customers who want clarification.
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 13, 2017 10:49 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:Gene this is not iffy information this is information direct from the camera development team.

You may have noticed then that URSA Mini Pro, and the major products we have released recently have been announced and shipping immediately.

Things have changed in the way we announce products but the 4.6K turret has already been announced and people are waiting so we are giving an update on it for our customers who want clarification.


Tim, I appreciate your efforts, but how have things changed when you are telling people to expect a product that is not shipping? Sounds just like the old days to me.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 14, 2017 1:31 am

Time, gentlemen, time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

David Hessel

  • Posts: 246
  • Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:53 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 14, 2017 1:48 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:
Tim Schumann wrote:Gene this is not iffy information this is information direct from the camera development team.

You may have noticed then that URSA Mini Pro, and the major products we have released recently have been announced and shipping immediately.

Things have changed in the way we announce products but the 4.6K turret has already been announced and people are waiting so we are giving an update on it for our customers who want clarification.


Tim, I appreciate your efforts, but how have things changed when you are telling people to expect a product that is not shipping? Sounds just like the old days to me.


While I agree that they shouldn't talk of products that are not ready to ship, that opportunity with the Ursa was gone years ago. Ursa owners have been waiting for over 2 years now I think BM should keep communicating about the turret until it is resolved. If it is going to be finished, if it is going to be discontinued, or if it is going to be compromised in some what there should be regular updates until then so people can make informed decisions on how they want to proceed.
David Hessel
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 14, 2017 3:58 pm

David Hessel wrote:While I agree that they shouldn't talk of products that are not ready to ship, that opportunity with the Ursa was gone years ago. Ursa owners have been waiting for over 2 years now I think BM should keep communicating about the turret until it is resolved. If it is going to be finished, if it is going to be discontinued, or if it is going to be compromised in some what there should be regular updates until then so people can make informed decisions on how they want to proceed.


David, I would love it if BM actually communicated useful information. But when it comes to saying no to their customers they are rather passive aggressive. Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but I do not know of any BM communication of product end-of-life or cancellation. Products at BM do not die, they just fade away. And it looks like the Ursa and its turret are fading away.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 14, 2017 5:06 pm

Gene, it may be a little like older releases of software operating systems. At some point new features can work fine on a four year old operating system and there may still be software patches issued for security updates although you can't download that old OS from the vendor (its vintage, not available but still supported). But at some point, usually due to significant changes in the framework, the software is no longer supported so that use of a particular software programme that applies to the current OS release likely won't run on that five year old OS. Then it's truly EOL, discontinued. You can still run with it until it breaks.

Right now it looks like BMCC, BMPC4K are 'vintage' cameras, but the URSA 4K is caught in a grey area. It seems to be lying dormant from our perspective, but we won't know if it's going to reappear as an URSA Pro in magnesium alloy with new circuitry, new processor(s), interchangeable mounts or interchangeable turrets, and other new features. I don't think we shall have any announcement of that until it's ready to ship, so it may be two years away before we see it.

One would think the URSA turret upgrade decision will be made well before then because that may be key to the URSA Pro's design.

BMD must feel caught between a rock and a hard place. No easy path at this time, ergo no resolution.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 14, 2017 7:17 pm

rick.lang wrote:Right now it looks like BMCC, BMPC4K are 'vintage' cameras, but the URSA 4K is caught in a grey area. It seems to be lying dormant from our perspective, but we won't know if it's going to reappear as an URSA Pro in magnesium alloy with new circuitry, new processor(s), interchangeable mounts or interchangeable turrets, and other new features. I don't think we shall have any announcement of that until it's ready to ship, so it may be two years away before we see it.


Rick, Announcing end-of-life for the URSA in no way precludes an URSA Pro or any other camera for that matter, but you would think that it did the way BM doesn't make EOL announcements.

One would think the URSA turret upgrade decision will be made well before then because that may be key to the URSA Pro's design.

BMD must feel caught between a rock and a hard place. No easy path at this time, ergo no resolution.


Rick, maybe that's what's happening, but that seems far fetched to me. What is more likely is that the idea behind the Ursa was not practical. Designing a camera that will work with sensors that are yet to be developed is a rather gutsy move. It assumes that you would know what tricks will be played in future designs and would be able to deal with them using electronics developed well before the sensor.
Offline

Patrick Acum

  • Posts: 54
  • Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:13 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 11:36 am

I'd go for a turret that matched it with the mini. Im not bothered about the global shutter (that much), non windowed 100fps would be ideal...
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 470
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 3:47 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:Gene this is not iffy information this is information direct from the camera development team.

You may have noticed then that URSA Mini Pro, and the major products we have released recently have been announced and shipping immediately.

Things have changed in the way we announce products but the 4.6K turret has already been announced and people are waiting so we are giving an update on it for our customers who want clarification.


Tim, Thank you so much for the update. I have been harsh at BM in the past for non-communication but now I applaud your and the camera team efforts to communicate what's going on. Please continue to do so. We are still waiting for the turret. Just FYI, if BM decides to provide a promo on the turret to loyal URSA 4K owners, please do so based on the camera serial number. You've given many of us a renewed hope.
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 1678
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 4:40 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Rick, maybe that's what's happening, but that seems far fetched to me. What is more likely is that the idea behind the Ursa was not practical. Designing a camera that will work with sensors that are yet to be developed is a rather gutsy move. It assumes that you would know what tricks will be played in future designs and would be able to deal with them using electronics developed well before the sensor.


It's clearly practical, though no other company that I know of has made the sensor USER upgradable. That does not, however, make it easy.

I suspect that the holdup isn't from the upgradability part, but rather with BMD's inexperience in sensor design, since the 4.6K sensor is BMD's first custom sensor.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://www.WhiteCranePhotography.com
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 4:56 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:I suspect that the holdup isn't from the upgradability part, but rather with BMD's inexperience in sensor design, since the 4.6K sensor is BMD's first custom sensor.


I might agree with you if BM had not already released two cameras with that sensor. This doesn't appear to be an issue with them knowing how to use the sensor in current camera bodies. Clearly it is an issue with BM knowing how to use that sensor in bodies designed and built prior to the sensor.

Hence the two years of "working on it".
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 1678
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 5:19 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I might agree with you if BM had not already released two cameras with that sensor. This doesn't appear to be an issue with them knowing how to use the sensor in current camera bodies. Clearly it is an issue with BM knowing how to use that sensor in bodies designed and built prior to the sensor.

Hence the two years of "working on it".


True, but neither of the camera models using the 4.6K sensor were ever advertised as supporting 120fps in 4K+. BMD might be able to satisfy a few customers just by giving them the higher dynamic range and improved color, but then it would just be a bigger, heavier Ursa Mini with more on-board monitors.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://www.WhiteCranePhotography.com
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I might agree with you if BM had not already released two cameras with that sensor. This doesn't appear to be an issue with them knowing how to use the sensor in current camera bodies. Clearly it is an issue with BM knowing how to use that sensor in bodies designed and built prior to the sensor.

Hence the two years of "working on it".


True, but neither of the camera models using the 4.6K sensor were ever advertised as supporting 120fps in 4K+. BMD might be able to satisfy a few customers just by giving them the higher dynamic range and improved color, but then it would just be a bigger, heavier Ursa Mini with more on-board monitors.


I suspect that if BM could have released a turret that gave users the same specifications as the UM4.7K, they would have done so long ago and be done with it. They have not, and with each passing day, given the at-cost upgrade path to the UMP and the discontinuation of the Ursa, they become less likely to do so. They passed the 50-50 chance mark a year ago and they've been dropping since.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 15, 2017 8:12 pm

I do believe the URSA is communicating with the sensor, but the sensor is not performing to the level BMD requires and expected from the sensor manufacturer. Whether that is 120 fps 4.6K with global shutter or whatever the target may be, it does not meet BMD's performance target that they have set. They may not always have to raise the bar, but they want to meet the bar, i.e. the performance standard that competing products offer. In terms of value, BMD may not have much competition, but to get to where they want to be, they need a camera package that will distinguish itself in the marketplace.

I'm sure the delays are as stressful for BMD as well as their customers... Alternatives exist for the customers, but there are many who don't want to compromise on the upgradable URSA. Alternatives exist for BMD, but, no doubt they also don't want to compromise on this one either. A rock and a hard place. BMD very much want a win-win solution.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 16, 2017 2:43 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Rick, maybe that's what's happening, but that seems far fetched to me. What is more likely is that the idea behind the Ursa was not practical. Designing a camera that will work with sensors that are yet to be developed is a rather gutsy move. It assumes that you would know what tricks will be played in future designs and would be able to deal with them using electronics developed well before the sensor.


It's clearly practical, though no other company that I know of has made the sensor USER upgradable. That does not, however, make it easy.

I suspect that the holdup isn't from the upgradability part, but rather with BMD's inexperience in sensor design, since the 4.6K sensor is BMD's first custom sensor.


First, let me say, communication is key. It is what EVERYONE has been complaining about, and now we are receiving communication. So let's accept the communication graciously. Second, Blackmagicdesign is not producing this sensor "in-house". They have worked on the development, but a separate company is most likely manufacturing the sensor.

And finally, I'm not suggesting that anyone let this communication buy Blackmagicdesign another 2 years. Like I said before, when the end of 2017 comes, I am moving on. At that point, we owners (many people are commenting who don't own and use an URSA), need to require that Blackmagic come up with another solution for us. Some of you are suggesting these alternative solutions, and I think that is key.

Ultimately, in my opinion, if Blackmagicdesign can't deliver the turret we need to ask ourselves:

URSA min pro ef, Blackmagicdesign large video assist monitor, at the same price of the turret upgrade which was $1,995 USD for the ef and $2,495 for the pl. That may be what we have to accept OR

URSA 4.6k turret without global shutter and higher frame rates. Basically the same specs as the mini, but we have the screens and form factor (at a price less than $1,995 since the specs that were published are not there) OR

We are refunded for our Blackmagic equipment and go to another camera company.

I think that is where we are right now. I'm patient, but not ignorant.

But again, I greatly appreciate the communication. It shows integrity, and I respect that immensely.
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline
User avatar

Daniel DarkSide

  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:21 pm
  • Location: St Louis

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 18, 2017 4:46 pm

robertmanningjr wrote:
Ultimately, in my opinion, if Blackmagicdesign can't deliver the turret we need to ask ourselves:

URSA min pro ef, Blackmagicdesign large video assist monitor, at the same price of the turret upgrade which was $1,995 USD for the ef and $2,495 for the pl. That may be what we have to accept OR

URSA 4.6k turret without global shutter and higher frame rates. Basically the same specs as the mini, but we have the screens and form factor (at a price less than $1,995 since the specs that were published are not there) OR

We are refunded for our Blackmagic equipment and go to another camera company.

I think that is where we are right now. I'm patient, but not ignorant.

But again, I greatly appreciate the communication. It shows integrity, and I respect that immensely.



Amen well said!!!
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 18, 2017 7:05 pm

Well I just found out today that I am not going to be happy with an URSA mini. Got an out of town corporate job and was just going to take my URSA major and realized that the ‘black hole sun’ problem the 4k sensor has is not going to work for this job. At all! So, I rented an URSA mini pro, haven’t received it yet, but I realized that I need two monitors attached to do what I’m used to doing with the URSA. My focus puller always used the “dumb” side of the camera, I dialed in settings on the other 5-inch monitor and used the 10 inch for composition and a monitor for the client.

If I had the 4.6k in my URSA all this would be moot. That’s the purpose of buying a camera with an upgradeable sensor. Not happy, and definitely not happy about the $700 rental price that doesn’t add any value to future productions.

The turret is a better option for me, and that’s why I bought the big URSA.
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 18, 2017 7:20 pm

You can add a 5" monitor for that shoot like the BM Video Assist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 18, 2017 7:32 pm

rick.lang wrote:You can add a 5" monitor for that shoot like the BM Video Assist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know. I don't want to add any monitors, much less two or three.
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 19, 2017 4:32 am

I know you don't want to, but if you have a shoot that requires another monitor... I had the same situation where I needed another monitor for focus pulling, but he just worked around it (successfully) by watching the witness marks for the focus needed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Joshua Dredge

  • Posts: 217
  • Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:14 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 19, 2017 5:14 am

That 10" monitor is something else, I'll miss it.
Though I was just packing down my URSA, and a never-mentioned feature is the rail mounts. They're just so easy to swap different rigs in and out and move them between tripods.

I honestly think the best alternative to the URSA is the Studio Cam 4K rather than the URSA mini. You don't get the great RAW footage and have to adapt lenses, but ergonomically I much prefer it to the mini.
Offline

chriswaves

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 19, 2017 1:24 pm

robertmanningjr wrote:
rick.lang wrote:You can add a 5" monitor for that shoot like the BM Video Assist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know. I don't want to add any monitors, much less two or three.



Hahahahaha....translation, you can spend some MORE $$$ to put a band-aid on the real issue. #sensorBS
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 19, 2017 4:02 pm

chriswaves wrote:
robertmanningjr wrote:
rick.lang wrote:You can add a 5" monitor for that shoot like the BM Video Assist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know. I don't want to add any monitors, much less two or three.



Hahahahaha....translation, you can spend some MORE $$$ to put a band-aid on the real issue. #sensorBS


EXACTLY!!!
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 20, 2017 4:24 am

A bandaid that saves his shoot is better than the alternative. I wasn't suggesting that had any impact at all on the desire to have BMD release the 4.6K turret, just helping him get through his scheduled shoot next week. Hope you're not serious about the criticism and just yanking my chain!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Brian Gulliver

  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 20, 2017 11:36 am

At some point Black Magic may acquire a CMOS sensor manufacturer like they did with Fairlight and Ultimatte so they aren't dealing with a third party sensor manufacturers.

To me it seems that they are dealing with organ transplant rejection trying to integrate two separate companies together and it seems like the delay is coming from the sensor manufacturer and not Black Magic. It sounds like to me Black Magic just doesn't have the reign in of controls they need working with a separate company. Black Magic always looks for companies which have potential and also acquires all of their research and design work.

When working with a third party you can't hurry success. I think this ordeal will at least give Black Magic an idea as to what kind of company they may want to partake in marriage vows with.

I don't think the delay is Black Magic's issue it is the sensor manufacturer which doesn't live in the same box as Black Magic.
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 1795
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Atlanta Georgia

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat May 20, 2017 5:26 pm

Brian Gulliver wrote:At some point Black Magic may acquire a CMOS sensor manufacturer like they did with Fairlight and Ultimatte so they aren't dealing with a third party sensor manufacturers.

To me it seems that they are dealing with organ transplant rejection trying to integrate two separate companies together and it seems like the delay is coming from the sensor manufacturer and not Black Magic.


Sensor foundries are very few and far between. It's not likely that BM would ever acquire one. They are multi billion dollar companies.

Many very successful cinema camera companies don't own sensor fab capacity. Arriflex have had at least two DIFFERENT sensor fab companies making a sensor to their spec over the life of the Alexa. I heard a rumour a while ago (now old) that they were really struggling for a while to find a company to make their sensors when the original fab facility decided not to continue making their sensors for them. These things are very very niche and low value / low volume orders compared to what they normally make sensors for.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
Offline

Brian Gulliver

  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 21, 2017 1:37 pm

It seems like the LTN4625A from Fairchild Imaging http://www.fairchildimaging.com/catalog/focal-plane-arrays/scmos/ltn4625a would cover all the bases that URSA users would be looking for the turret upgrade.

LTN4625A promises:
High frame rates 240 frames per second at 12MP full resolution
An active imaging area of 4608 (H) x 2592 (V) pixels
Supports both Rolling and Global Shutter readout modes (switchable).
Supports full frame or windowed frame "user-programmable row start/stop control for region of interest (ROI) readout."

The LTN4625A delivers lightning high speed, low-light sensitivity, wide dynamic range, and Quantum Efficiency (QE) above 50%.

This may be the sensor or similar custom sensor that BM is trying to use.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 21, 2017 4:23 pm

Brian, good research, but, before it's too late, try to get out of that theatre now and escape the Time Warp of The Rocky Picture Horror Show! See post #13, 12 April 2015:

Ursa Mini!

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_ ... are_type=t

Clearly BMD's proprietary sensor design has differences, but the BMD 4.6K fabrication appears to be based on that sensor. BMD has not confirmed this publicly.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 1678
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun May 21, 2017 7:40 pm

Brian Gulliver wrote:It seems like the LTN4625A from Fairchild Imaging http://www.fairchildimaging.com/catalog/focal-plane-arrays/scmos/ltn4625a would cover all the bases that URSA users would be looking for the turret upgrade.

(trimmed for brevity)

This may be the sensor or similar custom sensor that BM is trying to use.


All well and good... but not only as Rick pointed out is this not news, it's also irrelevant.

For one thing, it's not certain that this IS the same sensor that BMD is using, though it's likely that BMD's custom sensor is based on this or a similar one.

For another, what good is it even if IS the same sensor? What are you going to do, go purchase one, build a turret and reverse engineer BMD's turret interface?

It's not like you just buy a sensor and slap it in a box. Look at the Apertus project if you want to get a sense for how much work goes into making a camera even without a built-in recorder operational.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://www.WhiteCranePhotography.com
Offline

Ben Mart

  • Posts: 84
  • Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:34 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 22, 2017 6:11 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
For another, what good is it even if IS the same sensor? What are you going to do, go purchase one, build a turret and reverse engineer BMD's turret interface?

It's not like you just buy a sensor and slap it in a box..


Seriously don't think Brian was suggesting buying a sensor.

Although abit of gaffer tape would hold it in place, lol




Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
Offline

Brian Gulliver

  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 22, 2017 1:41 pm

I am not suggesting prototyping a camera or buying a sensor which is certainly beyond my capabilities. It is not even all of my research just search the forum for "Fairchild" and you will see thousands of posts. Fairchild possibly is responsible for delaying the Turret so it makes sense to me to mention it instead of bantering back and forth about hypothetical scenarios which are off topic.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 470
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 23, 2017 4:19 am

robertmanningjr wrote:Well I just found out today that I am not going to be happy with an URSA mini. Got an out of town corporate job and was just going to take my URSA major and realized that the ‘black hole sun’ problem the 4k sensor has is not going to work for this job. At all! So, I rented an URSA mini pro, haven’t received it yet, but I realized that I need two monitors attached to do what I’m used to doing with the URSA. My focus puller always used the “dumb” side of the camera, I dialed in settings on the other 5-inch monitor and used the 10 inch for composition and a monitor for the client.

If I had the 4.6k in my URSA all this would be moot. That’s the purpose of buying a camera with an upgradeable sensor. Not happy, and definitely not happy about the $700 rental price that doesn’t add any value to future productions.

The turret is a better option for me, and that’s why I bought the big URSA.

You could have just used the URSA and fix the black hole sun in post. BHS are now easily handle in Resolve. Then you won't have the mini problems.
Offline
User avatar

Johannes Jonsson

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 2:35 pm
  • Location: Iceland

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 23, 2017 8:06 am

Black hole are the easiest thing to fix in Resolve. Right click on that clip and chose Black Sun Highlight Correction, and it is done.
Johannes
Offline

Ben Mart

  • Posts: 84
  • Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:34 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue May 23, 2017 12:46 pm

Brian Gulliver wrote:I am not suggesting prototyping a camera or buying a sensor which is certainly beyond my capabilities. It is not even all of my research just search the forum for "Fairchild" and you will see thousands of posts. Fairchild possibly is responsible for delaying the Turret so it makes sense to me to mention it instead of bantering back and forth about hypothetical scenarios which are off topic.

I'm with you Brian:-)

Apologies to the BMD boffins now we know it's out of your control.

Just hope that when the turret is released it will be an interchangeable lens mount, as I'll put money aside for those extra mounts.

Any confirmation on this?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
Offline

Brian Gulliver

  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 24, 2017 2:31 pm

Sensors seem to be designed for DCI Flat aspect ratio and you have to crop or throw away pixels to get to DCI Scope aspect ratio. I am wondering why are there no specialized sensors available that are optimized or built for scope aspect ratio or other wider aspect ratios? We always have to crop pixels and sacrifice resolution if we want to go to the DCI Scope aspect ratio. The URSA, if the upgradable idea is ever fully utilized, would be the perfect candidate to use sensors optimized for wide aspect ratios.

I know cost can be an issue and it probably is but this is 2017 and I don't see one camera from Blackmagic or other manufacturers which can offer this.

The best option is still to go to anamorphic pixels a camera trick which goes back to the days of early film. Technology has changed so much since anamorphic was introduced there have to be better options today that can be used when filming and projecting.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 25, 2017 2:22 am

The 4.6K sensor has three ways to shoot widescreen 2.4:1 without wasting any pixels. Raw 2.4:1 4608x1920 with spherical lenses, 4608x2592 with 1.33x anamorphic primes like the SLR Magic 1.33x Cine Anamorphot primes, and Widescreen raw 3072x2560 with a 2x anamorphic prime.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Brian Gulliver

  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 25, 2017 9:44 pm

The 4.6k sensors native resolution is still 16:9 1.77. There are three ways to get other aspect ratios but all of them involve either 1.) Cropping the top and bottom of sensor or 2.) Optically compressing or squishing into smaller areas of the sensor without increasing pixel density. There are no true solutions to wide screen aspect ratio that do not involve compromise.

What I am saying is why not design the sensor to be optimized for wide screen cinema like DCI-scope from the ground up meaning there would be no cropping and no anamorphic optical compression? The sensor would be the correct aspect ratio from the start.

You could still do other aspect ratios on occasion when you need to appeal to "normal" "consumer" formats like 16 x 9 or 4 x 3 or even 2K Flat but you would be cropping the left and right of frame in those cases instead of the top and bottom. You don't need ultra-high pixel density for consumer "video" formats like 16 x 9 or 4 x 3 however ultra wide cinema formats would receive enhanced pixel density without compromise and normal spherical lenses could be used to capture wide aspect ratios.

This type of film or imaging sensor is demonstrated on 70mm film with the advent of super Panavision 70, which used normal spherical lenses to capture some of the widest film content known to man using spherical lenses with no compromises.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 25, 2017 10:33 pm

What I was pointing out is that although the sensor window for some solutions may not use all your photosites, at least you don't have to throwaway recorded data in any scenario I described. To ask for an option where the full sensor is perhaps 2.4:1 will make 90% of your client base complain about having to throwaway the sides of the fame to get to a 16:9 frame that is likely what most customers deliver. You may get your wish, but that limited appeal sensor will cost you at least twice as much as the most common sensor. I shoot windowed a lot. I don't feel I'm wasting anything as the option is there to shoot open gate when I choose to do so.

Using a spherical lens and shooting 2.4:1 is fine with you and me, but most widescreen devotees, want the anamorphic look and don't want their sensor to be that size. Any other choices will have pros and cons.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu May 25, 2017 10:44 pm

Johannes Jonsson wrote:Black hole are the easiest thing to fix in Resolve. Right click on that clip and chose Black Sun Highlight Correction, and it is done.

Thank you gentleman for the suggestion. All of the suggestions. I had to rent a mini since I own all the support equipment. I've tried the point and click "solve black hole problem" in post with Resolve. Didn't work at all. Maybe because it was raw footage, maybe cuz the shot was moving (dolly), maybe because light source was moving. Anyway. Didn't work. Had to manually fix and track the frames.

Anyway, that is moot since my next job is for a steel factory. You can imagine the nightmare that would be with steel processing.
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline
User avatar

MartinVidic

  • Posts: 136
  • Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri May 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Would have been nice if they could at laest sell the V2 sensor as a turret.
Offline
User avatar

Johannes Jonsson

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 2:35 pm
  • Location: Iceland

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 29, 2017 4:33 pm

Any news on the URSA 4.6k sensor?
Johannes
Offline

Brian Gulliver

  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:13 am

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon May 29, 2017 10:52 pm

It would be nice if Blackmagic provided a formal update every 3-months on cycle and mini or micro updates within 3 months even if there was nothing new to report it is reassuring to have open lines of communication. This would place the next formal update at the end of July beginning of August.

And the biggest problem is that it takes the sensor manufacturer 3 months to get them another ‘fixed/updated’ sensor. This is due to the time it takes to manufacture a silicon chip. So, with that turnaround, Blackmagic can only test 4 sensors a year. And here we are.
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed May 31, 2017 6:24 pm

It is now the end of the month and no official statement from blackmagicdesign. When I get back from my job on June 14 I am filing an official complaint. I hope they make a fool out of me before I return.
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 470
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Jun 01, 2017 9:52 pm

MartinVidic wrote:Would have been nice if they could at laest sell the V2 sensor as a turret.


+1. And also a firmware 4.x upgrade. I'll be content with that over nothing.
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Jun 02, 2017 6:17 pm

I just received this email from B&H Photo
Dear Gene Kochanowsky

Thank you for your interest in the following item:

Blackmagic Design URSA 4.6K Digital Cinema Camera (Canon EF Mount)
(B&H # BLURSA46KEF)

You are receiving this message because you asked to be notified when this item becomes available. We regret to inform you that this item has unfortunately been discontinued.

However, please note that a replacement model for this item is available:

Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro 4.6K Digital Cinema Camera (B&H # BLURSAMPRO)


As one would expect given the history of the situation, the replacement for this product is the UMP.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Jun 02, 2017 11:02 pm

The URSA Mini 4.6K EF discontinued and replaced by the USRA Mini Pro 4.6K EF? I wonder if it's the same story for the URSA Mini 4.6K PL, replaced by the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K EF with the optional PL mount?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited by rick.lang on Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

Donnell Henry

  • Posts: 687
  • Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:04 pm
  • Location: Brooklyn ny

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Jun 03, 2017 4:13 am

I would take that email with a grain of salt. B&H makes these mistakes a lot. Simply call blackmagic about that email. When I ordered my ursa mini Pro. I had a retailer give me the run around, telling me they only had pro's in stock that were full priced, and didn't know when they would have the upgrade cameras .After speaking with blackmagic about the issue, they sorted the situation out and I had my camera in a week after I made my call to blackmagic. You should call them, so you can hear for yourself if it's discontinued or not. And if it's not, then B&H should not send mis -information out before confirming with blackmagic.
GODS CREATE
Offline
User avatar

robertmanningjr

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:24 am
  • Location: New York City

Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Jun 04, 2017 1:35 am

Donnell Henry wrote:I would take that email with a grain of salt. B&H makes these mistakes a lot. Simply call blackmagic about that email. When I ordered my ursa mini Pro. I had a retailer give me the run around, telling me they only had pro's in stock that were full priced, and didn't know when they would have the upgrade cameras .After speaking with blackmagic about the issue, they sorted the situation out and I had my camera in a week after I made my call to blackmagic. You should call them, so you can hear for yourself if it's discontinued or not. And if it's not, then B&H should not send mis -information out before confirming with blackmagic.


Ladies and gentleman, all the URSA majors have been discontinued. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my post after I spoke to Dan May. They are no longer producing any more URSAs. Could they change their mind? Sure, but it was communicated to me that not enough URSAs were being sold to be profitable.

The only thing on the table now is the turret upgrade. That is the only thing that was communicated to me to be still in the works. It was also communicated that there 'should' be official communication by now regarding the turret upgrade for the URSA. That has not happened. I received the exact same email from B&H. And btw, B&H has not been wrong to date regarding the information they have posted with regard to Blackmagic products. The only misinformation or lack of information has come from Blackmagicdesign. The URSA mini pro has been listed as a replacement for the URSA 4.6k for months now on the B&H site.

In fact, B&H sending that email leads me to believe the turret upgrade is up in smoke as well. That along with the absence of an official statement from Blackmagicdesign.

From my email on June 2nd

"Dear Customer 

Thank you for your interest in the following item:

Blackmagic Design URSA 4.6K Digital Cinema Camera (PL Mount)
(B&H # BLURSA46KPL)

You are receiving this message because you asked to be notified when this item becomes available. We regret to inform you that this item has unfortunately been discontinued.

However, please note that a replacement model for this item is available: 
Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro 4.6K Digital Cinema Camera (B&H # BLURSAMPRO)

Please click the URL below to view the item:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _6k/BE/E15

If clicking the above link does not direct you to the product page, please copy and paste B&H item code BLURSAMPRO into the search box located on the upper left-hand side of our website. 

We appreciate your understanding and look forward to serving you again soon.

Thank you,The B&H Web Team"

I would not take that email with a grain of salt. Blackmagic is aware of the email. IF it was a mistake and you were a company that had a product that B&H said was discontinued, you would immediately issue a statement saying that product is not discontinued.
Rob
Resolve Studio (Latest Version)
OS X El Capitan Version 10.12.6
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
2 x 3.46 6-Core Intel Xeon
32 GB 1333 MHz DDR3 ECC
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 4096 MB
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Jun 04, 2017 2:31 am

Thanks, Robert. Glad to have my URSA Mini 4.6K PL mount with 5" LCD monitor, but surprised if no new machines will be made.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
PreviousNext

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 14 guests