4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 7:04 pm

haseebdistorxian wrote:Lets now officially sue them for the product which doesnt fullfill its full purpose that is upgradable, now the statement is there officially, many of us bought this instead of mini 4.6k at the time because that utter blackhole sun was upgradable and had global shutter, we invested money in heavy tripods and other gears.Now its up to us to show them what unhappy and unsatisfied customers are capable of


Knock yourself out. Suing was always an option. What took you so long? But just in case you don't know this, this is BMs website and any good lawyer would have told you a very long time ago, if you intend to sue them you should not be dicussing your case here of all places. This is of course why you will hear nothing from BM about this matter on this website. It's obvious, but it is official, you can't discern the obvious.
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 7:44 pm

Sorry Haseeb, that was not an official statement from BMD above. That was a user here making their own statement. I would ask politely that he let those of us who would prefer to, to freely ask here on the forum for a statement or update from BMD. I'm fully aware that the turret is dead. There are lots of discussions about the integrity of BMD in this thread and I'm pushing to see if BMD will publicly respond. Thanks for tolerating me.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Marc Bartholomew wrote:... I'm fully aware that the turret is dead. There are lots of discussions about the integrity of BMD in this thread and I'm pushing to see if BMD will publicly respond. Thanks for tolerating me.


You do realize that this is a forum. All the requests for BM to clarify are still in this thread.
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Gene, I do realize it's a forum, and old messages are still available. In fact I can quote you a couple of times last year asking for BM to respond directly:

"Vic, your experience aside, unless you speak for BM, I would rather that BM chime in and clear this up."

"I would hope that BM would chime in here if misinformation about upgrades is being posted to their very own forums."

I'm repeating my question because a promised update on the issue from BMD has yet to materialize.

I'm not trying to upset anyone, but apparently I'm upsetting Gene, and for that I apologize. I just want BM to make a statement.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 8:18 pm

Marc, so how long do you intend to keep asking for a "statement" and not getting one? Do you think time is on your side here?
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David Hessel

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 8:42 pm

Bumping this thread up so it sits directly with the pocket 4K announcement thread seems rather fitting to me.
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 pm

I plan on posting my question everyday until either there is statement or I get bored, whichever comes first.

Gene, may I ask what you did with your URSA? You've never mentioned having one from looking at your posts.
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Iain Philpott

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 11:10 pm

Interestingly I was/have also been waiting for the turret upgrade. But and it's now a big but I would not want to swap out my v2 turret for a 4.6. I own both and used both of them a lot. For me to upgrade the turret I would want global shutter, the same higher frame rates I can't do with my UMP and I'd like the 'colour' of the v2 sensor. As much as I would love that to happen I'm not sure (given now the age of the camera) that there is the processing horsepower to do it. I totally get the disappointment, maybe it is maybe it's not time to accept and move on but do not undervalue the camera you already have. Shooting beauty I would pick the v2 over pretty much any camera out there. People are starting to realise it, I see used prices for vgc one's going up. This camera (despite the weight!) will always have a market and I reckon at some point BM will recognise that and re-visit the form factor. Just think if the URSA v2 was built in carbon fibre composite it would be a fraction of the weight.........That 10" screen is mighty useful....
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Donnell Henry

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 12:36 am

Marc Bartholomew wrote:I plan on posting my question everyday until either there is statement or I get bored, whichever comes first.

Gene, may I ask what you did with your URSA? You've never mentioned having one from looking at your posts.


+1

Until Blackmagic post here and say it's not happening, i'll continue to go of the post Grant made last July which clearly states that they're having some issues with the turret, but while they continue to work on it..we can take advantage of the Ursa mini pro program, basically as a consolation for waiting. I'm not scared of disappointment. But i've always been a guy that sees the glass half full. Blackmagic listens to its customers ..everyone wanted a pocket 2 4k for at least 3 years now. On this forum some people said we're not going to see a pocket 2 because the micro cinema camera is essentially the new pocket 2. I even had a Blackmagic rep tell me on the phone they're not going to make a pocket Version 2 because they have the micro cinema camera. Guess what happened on Monday..BOOM! Pocket 2 4k. There's always hope
Last edited by Donnell Henry on Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 12:47 am

Marc Bartholomew wrote:Gene, may I ask what you did with your URSA? You've never mentioned having one from looking at your posts.


I don't have an Ursa. I considered it but I don't like big heavy cameras.
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cobydax

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 1:53 am

to quote Tony Rivera:

Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:14 pm

More information in regards to the 4.6K URSA and turrets will be coming
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 9:19 am

The bloke is just doing his job and a cog in a big machine, no need for that you smeghead.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 12:40 pm

Can we get an official update from BM about the turret upgrade for the full size URSA? Please? Pretty please?

marc
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RaviRajah

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 12:54 pm

https://www.change.org/p/blackmagic-des ... rsa-owners

this has been going on for some time now... perhaps more negative publicity can help the situation
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haseebdistorxian

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 1:12 pm

True, they didnt keep their words, in short we have been cheated. Never will i ever buy any other blackmagic product or suggest to anyone in my life , they are not at all reliable and yes worst customer service i have seen to date, man we pay to buy the product, it ant no freebie so its our right to get an official statement
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haseebdistorxian

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 1:17 pm

Also we havent received any firmware update since ages, no 3d lut support or any other thing which mini's software has it
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thomas bruegger

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 pm

yeah its time for a statement from BM on the matter!
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 4:08 pm

Can we get an official update from BM about the turret upgrade for the full size URSA? Please? Pretty please?

marc
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 4:27 pm

Game over guys, when we got our Ursa (V2), we got it for what it is now, a great 4K Camera! We did not expect, nor would we buy the 4.6 upgrade if it ever does show up. Time to move on, and use the tools we have now.

Lots of products are announced that never make it to market. Red even has done this. So, Complaining about what did not happen is counter productive. Time to move on... ;)
Good Bye
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 5:02 pm

I found the BM statement about the 4.6k turret on youtube!
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Donnell Henry

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Apr 12, 2018 5:10 pm

Nice one gene :)

I’m still going to say what I’ve always been saying...read grant’s post above. Also the only way I’ll stop looking for an update is when Grant says it’s not happening anymore. I do believe there’s something in the works. Until then I’m going to watch gene’s YouTube post on crickets :D
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 8:17 pm

Can we get an official update from BM about the turret upgrade for the full size URSA? Please? Pretty please?

marc
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Marc Bartholomew

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 1:27 pm

Can we get an official update from BM about the turret upgrade for the full size URSA? Please? Pretty please?

marc
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PpMarchena

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 3:26 pm

Don't give up Marc. I check this post every day hoping for any good new. I'm from Peru. Big Ursa clients deserve respect. Greetings from Inca's Land to everyone.
Pepe.
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haseebdistorxian

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 7:22 am

Can we get an official update from BM about the turret upgrade for the full size URSA? Please? Pretty please?
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RaviRajah

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 9:32 am

Can we get an official update from BM about the turret upgrade for the full size URSA? Please? Pretty please?
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RaviRajah

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 4:32 pm

The URSA mini pro is not an upgrade. It's a way out. And it is anything but classy. I don't know one URSA owner that is happy about the upgrade. I am not. If you want to do "right" by the original URSA owners, like me, you have us send in our URSA and you send us an URSA mini pro with a 4K monitor and an EVF. That would be close to doing "right" by the original URSA customers. The URSA v1 shoots RAW at 80fps and the URSA v2 shoots RAW at 120fps. The URSA Mini "Pro" tops at 60fps, has one small screen, smaller than all three on the URSA. It's a joke to say you are doing "right" by URSA customers by having them pay @$3,800 and call it a bargain. The 4.6k turret upgrade would have cost a total of @$2,200 and I would've been able to keep my three screens, one of which is amazing, my frame rates and my global shutter. All of which you confirmed was the case.

And, Blackmagicdesign, you have one MAJOR problem. You advertised the URSA as the "world's first user upgradeable camera". That is the ONLY reason I bought the URSA. It made sense to buy a camera where you could keep the body and change out the sensor. And at NAB 2015 you said as a statement of fact that it worked and it was shipping later that year. It is now NAB 2017 and your are saying it looks "hazy". Well, it must have looked hazy two years ago, a year ago and even now.

It doesn't take a lawyer to know that if the camera is not upgradeable, you have, at this point and previously, committed fraud

"A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury."

Blackmagic will either HAVE TO refund all URSA owners their original purchase price or get them to agree to an "upgrade" or "even exchange".

I am not happy and I will not let Blackmagic get away with costing me money on a product advertised with an upgradeable turret.

I have already contacted them and requested a refund for all my Blackmagic equipment that I purchased under false pretense.
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haseebdistorxian

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 4:36 pm

I agree ravi i had a choice whether to buy 4.6k mini or 4k v2 major i chose major just because of the so called upgradable option, had i known before would have chose mini4.6k
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 6:56 pm

You take a risk when you buy a product based on a future claim and there is no arrangement for what happens when the future claim does not happen. If you weren't aware of this, you are now.

And if the product you bought functioned as they said it functioned and you used it as such and made money off of it, then your claim of harm is severely reduced if you have any at all.

Now if you bought the camera and put is on the shelf, waiting to use it when the new turret arrived, then you could claim harm. But one would wonder if you are an idiot for tying up your cash in a camera you can't use when you could have just waited till the turret came out.

I mean really, you're whining like a bunch of kids because mom and dad didn't take you to the pizza shop after the movie and they promised! Get over it, you got to go to the movies.
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David Hessel

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 7:52 pm

One of the key features of a product that they marketed and sold was that it was user upgradeable. It is not upgradeable if an upgrade is never offered, Grant himself used the turret upgrade to market and sell the big Ursa in his NAB announcement when they claimed they had a working turret already.

So your position is hey they can say and do whatever they want, market and sell a product that never delivers it's promised features and those who bought it are just supposed to say oh well and move on, I guess I learned something. If they promise a product and just never deliver that is fine, if they promise a feature sell a product based off that feature and never deliver, that is fraud.
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Donnell Henry

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Apr 15, 2018 8:16 pm

Give BM some time .. from what I read here on the forum on testing sensors. If true, when a sensor doesn’t test well they have to wait another 3-4 months to get another sensor to test. So let’s speculate, from the time grant posted last July to now, they’ve probably tested 2 sensors. In grant’s post he said they’re having issues with it, and they would like to give us a great product. I’m more than positive the sensor works. But they want more from it. Speaking for myself I would want the best they can get out of whatever sensor they’re working on. If that means giving them some time to do that, so be it. I don’t think anybody would want that sensor to work more than BM. Remember no one here expected a pocket 4K. People wanted one, and asked for one for years.. there were some people on the forum that thought it wasn’t going to happen. But it did ..a little over 3 years from the time people started asking for a pocket 4K. I do like seeing the thread on the first page of the forum, thank you Marc :) Let’s also remember we still have great cameras in our hands. I took the upgrade, and still use my big Ursa. Hopefully by the anniversary of grant’s post we’ll get an update. Keep it civil guys ;)
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 12:56 am

David Hessel wrote:So your position is hey they can say and do whatever they want, market and sell a product that never delivers it's promised features and those who bought it are just supposed to say oh well and move on, I guess I learned something. If they promise a product and just never deliver that is fine, if they promise a feature sell a product based off that feature and never deliver, that is fraud.


My position is that if you buy an "upgradable" camera and at the time you bought it the upgrade was not available, then the onus is on you. If you buy anything that is not available and you do not have an agreement as to what will happen if they never ship it, then it's your own damn fault. If you're that gullible, then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Last edited by Gene Kochanowsky on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 12:57 am

Well, if anyone here wants to contact a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit against them, that might just settle this matter. BMD could save on huge legal cost by just exchanging every URSA 4K from current owner with a UMP less shipping cost. We return the URSA to them and they send us a UMP 4.6K. That's pretty simple. I'll go with that too. Good luck. Otherwise, crying and whining here won't get anywhere.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 12:59 am

Good luck with that. BM sold you a working camera with a warranty. If it didn't meet the warranty then you should have sent it back for repair, replacement or refund. But I'll bet that warranty says nothing about the availability of future turrets.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:19 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Good luck with that. BM sold you a working camera with a warranty. If it didn't meet the warranty then you should have sent it back for repair, replacement or refund. But I'll bet that warranty says nothing about the availability of future turrets.


Gene, I think you are missing the point. Warranty has nothing to do with this. The law states that false advertising is fraudulent... meaning if you advertised a FOR SALE ITEM publicly that says it is "USER UPGRADABLE" with a post from Grant that says they are still working on it (meaning the turret) and telling his customers that if you need 4.6K now you can get the UMP based on a Loyalty program, this are statement of facts that legally puts BMD confirming that their advertisement regarding upgradability of the camera is TRUE. If they cannot fulfill this, then they should state in a press release and offer compensation. Otherwise in the United States of America, this is called FALSE ADVERTISING and customers has recourse.

If this is hard for you to comprehend, here is a simple example. You are manufacturing and marketing a pair of binoculars. In your magazine advertisement, your ad states that your binoculars is upgradable with an upcoming replaceable lens that has X-Ray vision. Regardless of wether the customer is an idiot for believing your ad, he or she buys the binocular. Two years past you have not delivered the replaceable lens with X-Ray vision. That customer can claim your advertisement is false and thereby the sale cannot be consummated. The court will have the manufacturer refund the customer for money paid on the binoculars. This puts the burden on the vendor so that there are no precedence on committing fraud through false advertising. If you still don't get this, ask a lawyer.

It will not be hard to have a lawyer file a class action on this. They'll make good money and unfortunately put a lot of financial burden on BMD, money that will take away from their R&D and operations. I'm not for it since I want my BMD products when I can afford them in time or need them. But if someone out here is so pissed and really want to make a difference, go call a lawyer. Save a copy of Grant's post about the URSA Turret before they take it down. That's evidence. Also, find ads on the URSA from way before with remarks about "Upgradability" and "Turret options". I'm done whining here because this will not get anywhere and I've got better things to do. But if there is a lawsuit and it gets traction towards URSA current owner advantage, then I see good in it for me. I'm just a voice of reason and advocating the customer's cause. Best of luck to you who will take the challenge!
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RaviRajah

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:29 am

Well said Ellory and thank you for clarifying our legal stand point for URSA owners
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:35 am

I would not have bought the binoculars based on the upgrade if the upgrade was not available. I don't consider suing for fraud to be a remedy that I would ever want to get involved with. If the binoculars were not useful to me as is, based on the price, but the binoculars with the upgrade was worth it, I would wait until the upgrade came out before buying the binoculars. I would consider it silly to do otherwise.

A class action suit might get some of your money back, probably not much when everything is said and done, and it's not gonna produce a turret. And if your justification for the purchase of the Ursa was the turret and you bought it knowing the turret was not shipping, when you could have waited, then you bought a pig in a poke. And that is not a very smart thing to do. So you did something stupid and now you're mad at the vendor.

Now I agree that it's not good that BM over promised and under delivered. But surely if any of you have been following BM for any amount of time, you would know that they do that constantly. This should not have come as a surprise to anyone, and it is caveat emptor after all.

But if you must have justice, by all means sue. However if that is the route you want to take then what in the world do you think you are doing here, on BM's very own website. Get a lawyer or get over it.
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RaviRajah

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:42 am

Ahhh, but the Turret was available and working when we bought it, it just was not shipping yet...
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:46 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:I would not have bought the binoculars based on the upgrade if the upgrade was not available. I don't consider suing for fraud to be a remedy that I would ever want to get involved with. If the binoculars were not useful to me as is, based on the price, but the binoculars with the upgrade was worth it, I would wait until the upgrade came out before buying the binoculars. I would consider it silly to do otherwise.

A class action suit might get some of your money back, probably not much when everything is said and done, and it's not gonna produce a turret. And if your justification for the purchase of the Ursa was the turret and you bought it knowing the turret was not shipping, when you could have waited, then you bought a pig in a poke. And that is not a very smart thing to do. So you did something stupid and now you're mad at the vendor.

Now I agree that it's not good that BM over promised and under delivered. But surely if any of you have been following BM for any amount of time, you would know that they do that constantly. This should not have come as a surprise to anyone, and it is caveat emptor after all.

But if you must have justice, by all means sue. However if that is the route you want to take then what in the world do you think you are doing here, on BM's very own website. Get a lawyer or get over it.


I don't get you... you're talking about what you would do. I'm talking about what consumer law is wether you agree with it or not. You buying the binoculars has nothing to do whether you need it or it has any worth to you. That's not the point. The point is the LAW GIVES CONSUMER REMEDIES AND PUNISHES VENDORS FOR FALSE ADVERTISING OR MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS. What is silly is your lack of understanding of the law. So much enough to go argue with someone who doesn't look at the parlance of the statue of the law. You're just thinking like a regular Joe who just accepts faith. Not everyone is like you.

BTW, for all those interested in pursuing some kind of case, I found good evidence on the URSA Manual (August 2015 edition). On page 60, you can find proof that the URSA was sold with upgradability de facto. This page covers "Upgrading the Sensor Turret". That too was the title of the section. Good luck folks. Adios.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 1:54 am

Ellory, I understand your argument. I am not a court with jurisdiction. Neither is this website or anyone else here. If you want to argue your case, get a lawyer and bring suit, otherwise get over it.

If you want to argue your justifications for your purchase, than I certainly can argue why you made a poor choice. And I'm doing it with hindsight, so it is a perfect argument.
Last edited by Gene Kochanowsky on Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 2:00 am

RaviRajah wrote:Ahhh, but the Turret was available and working when we bought it, it just was not shipping yet...


My definition of available is, it is shipping. The turret was never shipping. In fact, as far as I can tell, loose turrets of any kind never shipped for that product. Something I always found a bit odd where the main selling point was a replaceable turret. I never saw anywhere, where you could order the v1 or v2 turret in any of the mount types available. I asked BM directly about this because I was considering buying a used Ursa. They told me that the only way to get a turret of any kind was to order a camera. Needless to say, I did not buy the camera.

All I can say is if the replaceability of the turret was a key feature for you when considering to buy this camera and you didn't do the obvious and at least inquire if any turret was available, than you deserve to get took.
Last edited by Gene Kochanowsky on Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Ellory, I understand your argument. I am not a court with jurisdiction. Neither is this website or anyone else here. If you want to argue your case, get a lawyer and bring suit, otherwise get over it.

If you want to argue your justifications for your purchase, than I certainly can argue why you made a poor choice. And I'm doing it with hindsight, so it is a perfect argument.


Gene, for the record, I didn't make a poor choice. I made a decision based on what was advertised. If that was a poor choice, then I was misled, which is exactly what false advertising is. That will be true for you and everyone here on this thread. I am no longer complaining what BMD did but this is the longest thread in all forums so far and the complaints and dissatisfactions continues to date. I have a good working knowledge of legal aspects. I think I already said that I am not interested in this matter anymore but to those who are still whining and crying fowl here, I'm just sharing thoughts on what they can do that can make a difference. In fact, in the state of California, which BMD has official jurisdiction, you don't have to get a lawyer. You can file a complaint with the Department of Consumer Affairs and they will start an investigation. Tools like class action lawsuits, DCA investigations, and similar are ways the vendors attention is perked up because they know it will be costly for them if they ignore it.

So this is not my fight anymore. I'm just providing information for those who might want to have a fair fight and a chance to get back. If that works, we (consumers who bought the BMD URSA) could benefit, or not. Otherwise, as you said, get over it.
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Aaron Swann

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 2:51 am

Ellory,

You bought the camera second hand, you have absolutely no right to complain. Remember the thread a year ago...
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 2:56 am

Ellory Yu wrote:Gene, for the record, I didn't make a poor choice. I made a decision based on what was advertised. If that was a poor choice, then I was misled, which is exactly what false advertising is. That will be true for you and everyone here on this thread.


Ellory, you made a poor choice, otherwise we would not be having this discussion. Your main argument is that the choice was a poor one because the vendor gave you false information. And I agree, they did. I don't think they did it intentionally, but that is how it worked out. I contend that the buyers responsibility to do their due diligence is not mitigated because the vendor habitually over promises and under delivers. You did buy a pig in a poke from a pig farmer that habitually places an IOU in the bag instead of a pig. You should know better. Open the bag and check the pig before you buy. If there is no pig there, don't buy it. Unless of course all you really needed was the poke.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 3:40 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:Gene, for the record, I didn't make a poor choice. I made a decision based on what was advertised. If that was a poor choice, then I was misled, which is exactly what false advertising is. That will be true for you and everyone here on this thread.


Ellory, you made a poor choice, otherwise we would not be having this discussion. Your main argument is that the choice was a poor one because the vendor gave you false information. And I agree, they did. I don't think they did it intentionally, but that is how it worked out. I contend that the buyers responsibility to do their due diligence is not mitigated because the vendor habitually over promises and under delivers. You did buy a pig in a poke from a pig farmer that habitually places an IOU in the bag instead of a pig. You should know better. Open the bag and check the pig before you buy. If there is no pig there, don't buy it. Unless of course all you really needed was the poke.


Then no one should buy from Blackmagic because they over promise and under deliver. Also, because that's how they operate, we should just let them. That is wrong and against the law. That's fraudulent.

Again, your assessment is so incorrect. This is a case where the item advertised promises upgradability where the upgradable items are in the future. If the URSA was sold outright with a 4K Sensor and 4.6K Sensor, the pig you will, and I bought the one with a 4K but later decided that I wanted the 4.6K model, then you are correct - that will be a poor choice on the buyer's part. But the Turret is a "FUTURE" item. It could be an external "SSD Writer", or a "PIG" and it won't matter. It is not in your bag but the statement that it will be coming and you can have that feature and functionality in the future is what makes a credible decision by the buyer and it was not a poor decision at the time of purchase. It is now but hindsight is 20/20 particularly if the vendor was upfront and honest with their intentions. So if I follow your logic, I won't be buying the URSA. No one will be buying the URSA. Your assessment just does not make any sense. I'm sorry to be frank but I think you'll need to stop re-battling because what you are trying to insinuate is utterly incorrect or just completely damn yet persistent to make a point that makes no sense. And if it pleases you, I love my URSA and have used it more than anyone here and still doing so this days. I'm not pissing and moaning about the Turret, I am making a case of principle here. Too bad, you just don't get it. I hope others reading this exchange have the intelligence to discern what exactly is the point.

I'm stopping my debate on the matter because you sir are not making sense and it is insulting my intelligence. However, for what it is worth, thank you for debating with me. Good luck with everything.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 3:45 am

I don't know... I don't think you can sue a company for not selling a product. To buy something that isn't on the market isn't a consumer right.
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David Hessel

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 4:01 am

It is not about them not selling a product, it is about them selling a product that was not as advertised.
David Hessel
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haseebdistorxian

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 4:12 am

Gene there are many things i can point out, and yes injust used this ursa for one production only and then shelfed it because i had to fix blackhole sun and many other issues which the sensor faces, bm didnt say before when we preordered that the camera has blackhole in it or fpn, i held this camera after my experience just because i read on the forum that they are working on the turret or in thr earlier press conference, wasted so much money on the heavy duty gears, selling it didnt seem like a viable option to me because i wont get a satisfactory price for that, again i bought this camera just because of the tagline user upgradable, i thought my investment would be secured as there would be an upgrade, berore buying major i contacted a bm representative regarding this they said soon turret is coming and suggested me to buy the major, by the way they did showed the 4.6k major footage back then if iam correct, so it is clearly a fraud that they did to us
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David Hessel

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 4:40 am

From their advertising when the Ursa was released.

"Choose from a range of sensors and lens mounts!

The Blackmagic URSA features a modular camera turret that can be simply removed by removing 4 simple bolts! The camera turret includes the sensor, lens mount and lens control connections and can be upgraded in the future when new types of sensors are developed. This means your next camera will be a fraction of the cost of buying a whole new camera!"

They can over promise and under deliver as much as they want on an unreleased product, it may look bad but in the end the buyer has the choice to still by the camera without a pre-announced feature or not. Case and point the global shutter mode on the mini. But when they promise and advertise a feature for a camera and then sell that camera but never deliver on that promised feature that is a different story.

There is a moment captured on video during the nab press conference when the 4.6k was announced where Grant Petty himself says something on the lines of. "We have also lowered the price of the Ursa 4K to xxx and the turret is priced at xxx which is the same price as the Ursa with the 4.6k sensor. That way you can buy the Ursa 4k now and use the 4k sensor until the 4.6k sensor is available in July."

Directly using the promise of the turrent to generate sales of the current Ursa, they also showed footage from Captain Hook which stated it was from the Ursa 4.6k not the mini. They also promised the 4.6k to Ursa owners first again making it sound like the Ursa more than the mini would be ready and available in just 3 months. If they don't release any upgrade, its fraud plain and simple.
David Hessel
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Apr 16, 2018 4:57 am

Aaron Swann wrote:Ellory,

You bought the camera second hand, you have absolutely no right to complain. Remember the thread a year ago...


That's incorrect again. Yes, I bought it used. The seller transfers all rights of ownership based on serial number to the new owner. The new owner, who has paid the fair value, is the current owner. The warrantees and duties of merchantability performance from the vendor comes with the serial number of the camera. So I have all rights as someone who bought it from B&H or another vendor to make all the complaints I want. And for that matter, who wants to stop me on my first amendment rights?
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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